Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 battery

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by okashira » Feb 19 2016 10:52am

Hillhater wrote:Ah, so it's a very different pack, voltage etc.
But estimating sag is tricky from spec data.....
IE... From this pulse discharge test below on similar cells (25R). the sag at 20 amps is more like 0.75 volts/cell which on your 18S , 4P pack @ 80amps, would be 13.5 volts ( and you could extrapolate that to 16+ amps at 100 amps !)[/img]
...I would not equate that chart you posted with any sort of "spec," in fact I would disregard it all together.
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by Hillhater » Feb 25 2016 6:42pm

okashira wrote:
...I would not equate that chart you posted with any sort of "spec," in fact I would disregard it all together.
But that was my point ,relying on "spec" data is only useful for theory.
I would rather use actual test results from an independent source....and disregard the "spec" sheet !
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by Vanarian » Feb 26 2016 5:41am

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum ... ll.683772/

This has probably been posted but here is a amperage discharge test run on Sony VTC5 from 10A to 30A.

Quick summary is that the cell is not a continuous 30A, just 20A as are Samsung 25R, 30Q, LG HE etc. Running it at 30A pushes it to 96 degrees, so high risks of venting. That's regrettable because discharge curve is solid at every test so still a very good cell, but price difference with LG and Samsung is hardly justified since performance is close.
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by riba2233 » Feb 26 2016 6:02am

Yeah, that confirms earlier tests, and also the IR is the same as 25R. There are other cells that are better for 30 A cont, but smaller capacity of course.
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by Hillhater » Feb 26 2016 7:18am

What application would require a continuous 30 amp discharge ?
That's about a 4 min (or less) of discharge for a 25R !
..a drag race is only a few seconds..
..an Ebike would never stay at Max power that long..
...a helicopter or plane would need a longer flight time.. (So bigger or more cells)
The Vape users are reported to be the hardest users, but even they are "pulse " users.
There probably are some applications that might demand 4 mins of max output, but they are not common,
....so is the "continuous " rating of any relavence beyond test purposes ?
The "pulsed" high amp discharge is far more common, and relavent to most users, ....though nearly every situation will be different Durations .
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by Vanarian » Feb 26 2016 8:57am

Electric skateboards, go-ped and soon skates are examples which need this much. Motorcycles and heavier EV need huge current draw too.

E-biking is not the only category interested by these cells :wink:

Also even when you don't use continuously that power for 4 minutes, you might need it for at least 30 seconds to 1 mine easily if you live in a hilly area. You will certainly prefer staying in your batteries range than pulse range.

But again, bigger vehicle can parallel more cells!
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by Hillhater » Feb 26 2016 4:19pm

Does anybody have data logging of power used during a typical run/ride ?
I would really like to see some actual data on what % of discharge is spent in that top 10% of the power range .

EDIT.....sorry, getting a bit OT, so I have moved this to a new thread.
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by Hillhater » Feb 26 2016 4:45pm

Vanarian wrote:Electric skateboards, go-ped and soon skates are examples which need this much. Motorcycles and heavier EV need huge current draw too.
!
Obviously, but few/none will tolerate a 4 min run time, !....
...so , as you say, they use multi cell packs to spread the load and extend the run time by reducing the average current draw. Nearly all of us do that.
Even a relatively short 15 min run duration , implies the average amp draw is down to 4C (10 amps on that 25R !)
We may still need a intermittent max amp capability, but Many cells tolerate pulse loading much better than continuous.
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by mailer » Mar 15 2016 5:29am

andreym wrote:These welders are too low power - my friend tested one and he succeed to weld only 0.1 nickel strip max.
So I decided to get more powerfull one :twisted: DN-10 means 10kw I believe. 35AC barker is barely usable at 240V AC, 25a hits immediately when you try.
btw wires are 50mm2 and they become quite warm..
Check this out:
Image
Image
Does anyone knows where to get a DN-5 or maybe DN-10 spot welder like this one like andreym have? I won't weld more than 0.3 nickel so I think that DN-5 will be enough.
Is this single or double pulse spot welder? Is it good for 18650 cells or they can be damaged?
I found one on some internet page but the price was 900$ probably without shipping and I still have to pay 25% for the import in the EU.

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by riba2233 » Mar 15 2016 6:35am

As far as I've understood from others' experiences, dn-5 is not enough for 0.3 mm nickel, and dn-10 can easily damage cells.
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ridethelightning » Mar 15 2016 8:02am

mailer wrote:
andreym wrote:These welders are too low power - my friend tested one and he succeed to weld only 0.1 nickel strip max.
So I decided to get more powerfull one :twisted: DN-10 means 10kw I believe. 35AC barker is barely usable at 240V AC, 25a hits immediately when you try.
btw wires are 50mm2 and they become quite warm..
Check this out:
Image
Image
Does anyone knows where to get a DN-5 or maybe DN-10 spot welder like this one like andreym have? I won't weld more than 0.3 nickel so I think that DN-5 will be enough.
Is this single or double pulse spot welder? Is it good for 18650 cells or they can be damaged?
I found one on some internet page but the price was 900$ probably without shipping and I still have to pay 25% for the import in the EU.
my friend willow has that exact welder, he ordered from aliexpress i think.
un-modded,the dn10was very difficult to weld with 0.3 nickel, as the pulse length adjustment was not fine enough, so you either get a small explosion and fry everything or dont get any pulse at all.

we sorted that with a very simple 555 timer circuit(thanks to a design from kdog) and a solid state relay, bypassing the electronics in the welder and just using its huge coil

so now it can very nicely weld 0.1mm copper, and probably ~0,2mm-0.3mm nickel, but we have no need of nickel anymore :P
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by mailer » Mar 15 2016 8:42am

I just need a good welder for cell(packs), probably I won't weld more than .25 nickel but it's good that the welder is future proof and some way more powerful it is the later it will get "tired".
I think the cell outside thickness metal is around .3 so I think there is no need to weld more than that size on it, usual it is .15 as I read on this forum.
ridethelightning, i just want to check if my knowledge for cell packs on your first picture is right...
- the biggest pack is 12P12S (+ on right side)
- the smaller pack is 12P10S (+ on left side)
but if I want to write it as usual upper is 10S12P and lower 12S12P

From "small" you get 37V and from big 44.4V, the capacity depends from the capacity of the cells. Two more questions.
Do you have to match new cells for even capacity or this is important just for used cells (from laptop batteries).

Is enough just to check the voltage of the brand new factory cells or must I discharge-charge and discharge again?

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVJNol7jq0M from 1min35s

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by robocam » Mar 15 2016 8:04pm

Can the timer be used for the welder in this video? Or is there a timer/relay from eBay or Amazon I can purchase so that I can set the on time for each time I press a switch? Right now, the welder stays on for as long as the switch is pressed. I'd like a little consistency. I'm also wondering if the welder in the video is heating the battery too much. What do you think?

https://app.box.com/s/qjpwxw0jh7tjszfic ... 20062745/1
ridethelightning wrote:
my friend willow has that exact welder, he ordered from aliexpress i think.
un-modded,the dn10was very difficult to weld with 0.3 nickel, as the pulse length adjustment was not fine enough, so you either get a small explosion and fry everything or dont get any pulse at all.

we sorted that with a very simple 555 timer circuit(thanks to a design from kdog) and a solid state relay, bypassing the electronics in the welder and just using its huge coil

so now it can very nicely weld 0.1mm copper, and probably ~0,2mm-0.3mm nickel, but we have no need of nickel anymore :P

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by irq » Mar 16 2016 10:03am

I am curious why the -25R and Konions are that popular, but the LG HE2 Cell not (at least it seems to be that the HE2 isnt). I am using a 10s6p self made HE2 Pack since a few Months and so far i am very happy with it. No Cell Drifting, Capacity Drop isnt noticable yet and they handle current peaks very well.

And, not to forget. The HE2 is pretty good available for a reasonable Price...
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by okashira » Mar 16 2016 10:22am

irq wrote:I am curious why the -25R and Konions are that popular, but the LG HE2 Cell not (at least it seems to be that the HE2 isnt). I am using a 10s6p self made HE2 Pack since a few Months and so far i am very happy with it. No Cell Drifting, Capacity Drop isnt noticable yet and they handle current peaks very well.

And, not to forget. The HE2 is pretty good available for a reasonable Price...
The HE2 is a great cell.
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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by Punx0r » Mar 16 2016 2:59pm

But IIRC is no better than the 25R or 30Q for discharge capability and is a little more expensive.

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ridethelightning » Mar 18 2016 7:01am

mailer wrote:I just need a good welder for cell(packs), probably I won't weld more than .25 nickel but it's good that the welder is future proof and some way more powerful it is the later it will get "tired".
I think the cell outside thickness metal is around .3 so I think there is no need to weld more than that size on it, usual it is .15 as I read on this forum.
ridethelightning, i just want to check if my knowledge for cell packs on your first picture is right...
- the biggest pack is 12P12S (+ on right side)
- the smaller pack is 12P10S (+ on left side)
but if I want to write it as usual upper is 10S12P and lower 12S12P

From "small" you get 37V and from big 44.4V, the capacity depends from the capacity of the cells. Two more questions.
Do you have to match new cells for even capacity or this is important just for used cells (from laptop batteries).

Is enough just to check the voltage of the brand new factory cells or must I discharge-charge and discharge again?

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVJNol7jq0M from 1min35s
your knowledge is pretty good :P
they are indeed 12s12p and 10s12p, with series connection to make 22s12p, samsung 30Q, 84v nom, @~36ah.

i usually make sure all cells(new) are reasonably balanced before building pack, by checking voltage only.

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ridethelightning » Mar 18 2016 7:34am

@ heating cells in video there, its possible.

a good weld on nickel has little discolouration but is still strong.(just from observation, im not much of an expert as say, nobuo or okashira to name a few...

with welding of copper, i just thought id share some insights/observations here.

the dynamics in the process of welding copper is quite different from that of metals with higher resistance like nickel.
because it conducts the weld current so well, and also conducts any heat away so fast, it requires much more current to get it to heat to the point where it melts and fuses to the cell.

this makes it very difficult to weld, as it requires a huge amount of current in a very short pulse, and any factors such as bad contact or dirty surface could blow the arse of a cell to bits!

my solution to this was is to use tungsten rod as the electrode tip,($3 from any good welding store (from tig electode) drilling a hole in the end of the copper dn10 electrode tips(as pictured earlier) and inserting some~15mm long piece of tungsten with a press fit into each electrode tip.
this has a very high melting point, quite high resistance and is very hard.

the result is that the tungsten remains hard but glows cherry red for an instant as the weld pulse travels through it, producing the heat that creates the weld.
because the copper is so good at conducting the heat away, the area where the weld is is barely warm to the touch afterwards. ( although the welding pens get warm after a while) im absolutely confident that it doesnt get hot enough to damage the cells, while creating a very high current connection.

i usually only do one weld in concession on the neg pole especially to avoid overheating a single cell to much.

as you may see from the pics above, i took great care to minimise any path for air or moisture to get into the finished pack, so as to avoid any potential corrosion.
the other consideration is that 0.1mm copper is not particularly mechanically strong, even though the welds are good, so the pack must be very soild build with spacers or hotglue, but i would not like a nickel pack with just the strips holding the pack together either.

also, i did not solder anything to the cells but soldered to the copper before welding it on, to avoid soaking heat into them.

iv built 2 of these 22s12p packs now,for 2 separate bikes, and can vouch that they can produce some savage power :twisted:

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ian84 » Mar 31 2016 7:50am

andreym wrote:These welders are too low power - my friend tested one and he succeed to weld only 0.1 nickel strip max.
So I decided to get more powerfull one :twisted: DN-10 means 10kw I believe. 35AC barker is barely usable at 240V AC, 25a hits immediately when you try.
btw wires are 50mm2 and they become quite warm..
Check this out:
Image
Image
Got couple of batteries welded already.
used 0.3mm x7mm pure nickel stip
Image
Image
Image
and more on the way
Image
Image

Digging this old post up....

Can you advise what setting was used on the single layer 0.3mm and also when you doubled up what setting did you use? also did you do two layers with one weld ? or each layer individually welded...

Looking at this DN-10 seems like a winner, i been advised it will do 0.7mm max with the two copper prongs on the same side ( 18650) .... and much more thicker.. like something along 3-4mm .... when prongs are on top and bottom of the material to be welded.

Any advice appreciate.

Cheers.

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ian84 » Mar 31 2016 8:13am

ridethelightning wrote:
mailer wrote:
andreym wrote:These welders are too low power - my friend tested one and he succeed to weld only 0.1 nickel strip max.
So I decided to get more powerfull one :twisted: DN-10 means 10kw I believe. 35AC barker is barely usable at 240V AC, 25a hits immediately when you try.
btw wires are 50mm2 and they become quite warm..
Check this out:
Image
Image
Does anyone knows where to get a DN-5 or maybe DN-10 spot welder like this one like andreym have? I won't weld more than 0.3 nickel so I think that DN-5 will be enough.
Is this single or double pulse spot welder? Is it good for 18650 cells or they can be damaged?
I found one on some internet page but the price was 900$ probably without shipping and I still have to pay 25% for the import in the EU.
my friend willow has that exact welder, he ordered from aliexpress i think.
un-modded,the dn10was very difficult to weld with 0.3 nickel, as the pulse length adjustment was not fine enough, so you either get a small explosion and fry everything or dont get any pulse at all.

we sorted that with a very simple 555 timer circuit(thanks to a design from kdog) and a solid state relay, bypassing the electronics in the welder and just using its huge coil

so now it can very nicely weld 0.1mm copper, and probably ~0,2mm-0.3mm nickel, but we have no need of nickel anymore :P
Oh that's interesting. So fine adjustment was. Not possible? Is it impossible? Or just hard to tune in? Wonder how the other member did his with 0.3mm

Hmmm...

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ridethelightning » Apr 03 2016 5:31am

good point.
we tried quite a few times with 0.3mm nickel without success with the unmodded dn10. all surfaces were clean, electrodes clean etc.

perhaps its adjustment mechanism was different or faulty, i really dont know why it wouldnt give consistent results.

im telling you there was NO WAY we could have got results like andreym has with that unit. the power was there, it was just either "off" or "smokin!"

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ian84 » Apr 03 2016 5:43am

Ahhh understand. Power was adequate. . But unable to get right adjustable.

Thanks for your reply.

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ecruz » Sep 27 2017 12:41pm

Hi guys, where would you suggest to best buy a roll of the .3mm * 7mm Pure nickel roll?

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Re: Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 batt

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 27 2017 5:47pm

0.3mm may be too thick, MAY OVERHEAT OR BURN THE CAN

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