Ping charger question

mingonn

10 W
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
83
Hi all,

Christened my new Ping pack this morning with a ride to work and have it on the charger. It is one of the 2A models.

I am not sure when to stop it as it ran continuously for an hour but now is pulsing on and off. Should I leave it until it stops pulsing or wait till it stops? The green light comes on when it is off.

Cheers
Derek
 
mingonn said:
Hi all,

Christened my new Ping pack this morning with a ride to work and have it on the charger. It is one of the 2A models.

I am not sure when to stop it as it ran continuously for an hour but now is pulsing on and off. Should I leave it until it stops pulsing or wait till it stops? The green light comes on when it is off.

Cheers
Derek


Pulsing means it is balancing the cells. When it stops pulsing it is cooked and should turn solid green.
 
i think the word "cooked" in relation to batteries is not the best choise :D
 
I agree, especially when talking to a new adopter. One really nice thing about Lifep04 is its ability to tolerate extra charging to balance the pack. Some attempts to balance lead batteries can cook them. When I got my ping last spring it would do the pulsing, balancing thing every charge, but for a little less time till the cells got broken in. Since then it just charges and shuts off. So don't panic when it stops doing it either. My pack is balanced still after about 1200 miles.
 
monster said:
i think the word "cooked" in relation to batteries is not the best choise :D

The prefered term is "well done"... :lol:

Question(s): Why would the charger cycle OFF and ON instead of just keeping the pack continously at the voltage needed for balancing? If I use a constant voltage DC power supply (current limited to 6A) to charge, is it bad to leave it connected for extended periods to make sure cells get balanced? And how do I know when they are balanced?
 
ZapPat wrote:
Why would the charger cycle OFF and ON instead of just keeping the pack continously at the voltage needed for balancing?
It's not really the charger that cycles OFF and ON. The BMS has detected a high voltage on one cell (sub pack) and opens the circuit, so the charger is effectively in an unattached condition and turns off until the BMS closes the circuit. Eventually, when the battery is balanced and the charger reaches it's high voltage cut off it goes into trickle mode and the same green lights come on, which is a little confusing, but not the same as when the BMS opened the circuit.
 
As I understand it, the bms will slightly discharge the high cell or cells, which the charger detects and starts charging again. This is why the bms gets so hot when the balancing is being done. I like to plug in my charger about 12 hours before I am going to ride in the morning, so it can charge for 8 or so hours and then trickle awhile, allowing time to balance if it wants to.
 
dogman said:
As I understand it, the bms will slightly discharge the high cell or cells, which the charger detects and starts charging again. This is why the bms gets so hot when the balancing is being done. I like to plug in my charger about 12 hours before I am going to ride in the morning, so it can charge for 8 or so hours and then trickle awhile, allowing time to balance if it wants to.
That doesn't really sound good from a cell's point of view at least. That means the higher cells go through mini charge-discharge cycles the whole time they have to wait to have the others catch up, which will put a bit of wear on them [how much, we don't know]. It would be much better to just bypass the charge current around the cell using the resistors and FET switches, and keep up the charge current to just what these BMS parts can dissipate. Does the BMS being made by Gary here at ES do this, or does it work as you describe here?
 
I think you guys are missing the point. This is a cheap SLA charger that has been tweaked for a higher voltage (entire pack) cut off. It does not know anything about individual cells (sub packs). That being said, as far as I know, most of us are having good results with our Ping and Ping like packs that use these tweaked SLA chargers. I don't know if the BMS drains the high voltage cell or just lets it settle down on its own before closing the circuit again.

Certainly there is lots of room for improvement, but I think the standard BMS and charger supplied with Ping packs is more than adequate for standard usage. Once a pack has been balanced and seasoned the on/off cycles seems to decrease.
 
Thanks everyone, I feel alot more comfortable leaving it on now. Fingers crossed this LiFePo stuff lives up to all the hype. I am getting this bike ready for my wife who just wants a plug and play job.

Cheers
Derek
 
It's a really shallow dischage cycle the bms puts the high cell through. Once balanced, in about 6 cycles, mine has stayed balanced for the entire summer. So the wear and tear is not much. If it needs to do this balancing for the life of the battery then I would suspect a bad cell in there.
 
dogman said:
It's a really shallow dischage cycle the bms puts the high cell through. Once balanced, in about 6 cycles, mine has stayed balanced for the entire summer. So the wear and tear is not much. If it needs to do this balancing for the life of the battery then I would suspect a bad cell in there.
OK, I believe you guys about the packs staying balanced after the initial break in period - the new ping pack I got seems already almost balanced and it is brand new!

I still have a question for you guys who've been using lithium with BMS's for a while now:
Is the first cell to achieve full charge usually the weakest, or the strongest?

If it's the strongest ones that hit full charge before the weakest ones, then I wouldn't blink at the mini charge-discharge cycles they would go through while waiting for the weakest cells to catch up. If however it's the weakest cells hiting full charge before the stronger ones, it would look like we have a negative feedback effect taking place, where the weaker cells will go through more charge-discharge than the stronger ones, thus wearing them out faster and making them even weaker though time. What is the more common situation of the two?
 
Ping BMS update

I have been happily charging my Ping pack until the charger stops pulsing and the green light stays on but I have discovered that is not the correct method. I have wondering about the lack of range compared to my LIPO pack so decided to check under the hood. I ran my pack until the BMS cut out and then check the individual cell voltages. I was quite surprised to find two unbalanced cells one at 3.21 and the other at 3.08 (that one has been causing the early cutout), the rest were all at 3.28.

A quick email to Ping and here is the definitive word from the man himself.

From: Li Ping [mailto:pingping227@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 21 October 2008 2:40 AM
To: 'Derek Chong'
Subject: RE: Bad cell in pack

Hi Derek,

Sorry for the late reply. I took a weekend break.

It seems to be a imbalance problem. Maybe you're not familiar with LiFePO4 balance. Actually, you need to charge tha battery pack longer if the led in the charger turns green. Because the cells need balance.

Now, I recommend you recharge the battery pack for at least 24 hours or longer till voltage of each cell goes to more than 3.7v.

Best regards,

Ping


After my usual charging process last night I measured the two suspect cells 3.72 and 3.73 compared to the others at 3.76, I then reconnected and left it on for another 12 hours. To my surprise all the cells were now between 3.76 -3.77.

Take home message is that the BMS continues balancing long after the charger stops noticeably pulsing, I expect it still kicks in after each discharge cycle but infrequently. I noticed that this morning the BMS was cool where as previously (even hours after the charger stopped pulsing) it remained warm for some time, I expect this indicates the pack is balanced as it is no longer discharging cells and dissipating heat.

I expect the long charge is only necessary for the first few charges after which the cells should be balanced, but I will be doing a weekly long charge just to be on the safe side.

Cheers
Derek
 
That could go a long way to explain why my pack is still perfectly balanced after 5 months on just sla chargers. I come home around 1 PM and plug in, but don't usually unplug till the next morning at about 5 am. So my daily charge is around twice the time it could be. Good thing to know!
 
I believe the balancing actually occurs once the green light stays on. The pulsing is the BMS causing the charge current to be cutoff, when a cell gets too high. This will happen as the cell's voltage first hits the cutoff, which sounds like it is set for about 3.75V. At this point, the cells are about 85% full. Eventually, the cells causing the cutoff will get full enough that the current required to keep "filling it" is less than the trip point, which is really the amount at which the shunt resistors can pass without being swamped (50-100mA, I think...). When all the cells are at this point, the green light comes on solid. This is when the shunts for the fuller cells are bypassing the maximum amount (i.e. -- 50-100mA...) and the cell is as full as it can get. This 50-100mA is then passed up the chain to the next cell. If this next cell is not completely full yet, all of the bypass current will go into the cell. Eventually it will get full, and its shunt will bypass the 50-100mA up to the next cell, and so on. Eventually, all the cells are full, and all the shunts are in full bypass. With such a low bypass current, it can take literally 24 hours in order for each cell to get completely full, if you have cells that are significantly out-of-balance in relation to the rest.

The BMS that Richard and I are doing operates in a similar fashion, but instead of a slow "pulsing", we have logic that keeps the charge current just below the threshold of what would swamp the shunts. The other difference is that our shunt circuits will bypass 5-10 times as much current (up to 1/2A...), so it doesn't take near as much time for the low cells to catch up, and get completely full. Finally, we now have a feature that completely cuts off the charge current when all the cells are as full as they are going to get. When this happens, our LED turns green.

RC-type balancers do, in fact, work by draining down the high cells, while waiting for the rest to catch up, but I do not believe any of the typical imported BMS designs do this. I believe they all work the way I've described above.

One other point is that there are two conditions where a cell, or cells, are not at the same level as the rest. In the first, it is typically just that the cell(s) simply didn't start out as full as the others, but are otherwise as healthy, and still have the same capacity as the rest of the cells. Once they are fully charged, it is reasonable to assume they will stay fairly close to the rest of the cells. I think there are many examples of this that people have reported. The second case is when a cell becomes "stressed", maybe by being slightly over-discharged, and it loses some of its capacity (typically 5-10%...). In this case, these cells will get "full" quicker than the rest. With our BMS, you would see the orange LED for that cell come on a lot sooner than the other LEDs.

-- Gary
 
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