The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Post Reply
User avatar
justin_le
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 28, 2007 3:27 am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

Post by justin_le » May 26, 2014 5:20 am

Some background details here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 45#p739745

Long story short, after being repeatedly frustrated as an ebike business dealing with battery chargers that for the most part sucked, we committed ourselves 3 years ago to design and develop an ebike specific charger that kicked-ass instead. These kinds of things don't happen overnight, especially when all the regulatory details and testing have to be met and passed for UL, CSA, and CE approvals, but in the last few weeks ago we got pass on all regulatory certification and delivery of our first pilot production batch as well. It was a bust out the champagne kinda moment for the engineering team:
Champagne.jpg
Champagne.jpg (108.97 KiB) Viewed 14038 times
I've attached the latest product brochure proof which covers the overall specifications and features, as well as a draft of the user manual content, which together should paint a fairly clear picture of the device. 360 watts, programmable output profiles, lead/nickel/lithium support, fan free, power factor corrected 100-240V input, 95% efficiency, graphic display screen etc.
Satiator Bootscreen.jpg
Satiator Bootscreen.jpg (34.86 KiB) Viewed 14038 times
We have about 6-8 weeks until the actual full-scale production takes place. In that time period are hoping to do a lot of extensive field testing and firmware refinements, and for that we're looking for some "beta tester buddies" who want to be in at the get go with this project. Ideally these would be people who have a multitude of different batteries that they like to charge, people who charge batteries daily or multiple times a day, and a plus if they want to ride and travel with the charger on their ebikes. As well they should be technically savvy enough to understand the nuances of charging algorithms, and comfortable enough with a computer to do updates on the charger firmware (process will be similar to the CA V3).

Normally, that would be a pretty narrow set of criteria but I think on ES it could still be a majority of you ;-). In any case, I have on my floor here 1 dozen units that are eager to get out of their boxes and into someones hands, and we should have another 20 or so pieces coming online in about 2 more weeks.
Satiators On Floor.jpg
Satiators On Floor.jpg (46.12 KiB) Viewed 14038 times
The price of the satiator is $295 US, which may seem like a total bargain (if you say compare it to a general purpose lab programmable power supply) or a bit outrageous (if you are used to $60 china barebones flyback converter chargers). Suffice it to say this will not be a product for everyone but I'm hoping there are enough people who really want a high-end quality part to make all of this development have been worthwhile. Otherwise I'll have squandered all the proceeds of our Cycle Analyst sales to have made a cool-looking brick.
Attachments
brochure_proof7.pdf
The most recent 4-Page Satiator Marketing Brochure
(2.2 MiB) Downloaded 1577 times
540-0001 Rev2, Satiator User Manual.pdf
Draft of Satiator user manual content for pilot firmware (will change with release firmware)
(798.81 KiB) Downloaded 981 times
Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with prototype 26" Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 11Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
voicecoils
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2288
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 6:31 am
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by voicecoils » May 26, 2014 5:22 am

Awesome news! Congratulations!!!

Put me down for 1 (36v & 48v LiMn) and 1 for Glow Worm (daily shop use of all sorts of packs)

Gab
100 W
100 W
Posts: 269
Joined: Aug 05, 2012 7:18 am

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Gab » May 26, 2014 7:02 am

Hi

This is a really good idea. Just two comments

I think backward compatibility of OLD batteries types is not a needed feature, most people who will buy this will want the latest battery chemistry not SLA or NICD which you can't even buy easily. So if anything suitable for the next or newest chemistries is the most important feature. i.e 4.35v cells, NCA, NCM etc. not backwards compatibility.

Also one important change if you could make it suit 72v packs also, I think that's the highest common ebike voltage people use. 60v max basically means 48v packs is the maximum it will suit as some 48v packs charge up to 58.8v such as EM3ev

User avatar
teslanv
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3023
Joined: Nov 03, 2013 8:42 pm
Location: Bellevue, WA - USA
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by teslanv » May 26, 2014 7:32 am

Great concept Justin. I think this charger will fit well for the majority of ebike owners.
It would certainly suit three of the four ebikes I now have in my garage.
Any chance you will develop one with a higher voltage range? My newest project will require nothing less than 84V charge voltage and perhaps as much as 100.8V so I have to say I am torn between thinking this charger kicks ass, but wishing it could be more. Output of 360W is awesome, by the way.
I build custom ebikes.
http://www.westcoastelectrics.com
West Coast Electric Cycles
Bellevue, WA
USA

melodious
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1296
Joined: Aug 26, 2011 8:57 am
Location: East Coast, U.S.A.

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by melodious » May 26, 2014 7:59 am

My 36v "run of the mill" BMSbattery charger broke on it's second backpack ride (I normally never carry them with me). It's typically advised not to bring the charger as it's not built for the rigors of being on the road. Well, here's a game changer for sure :!: Wish I could be a participant, but sadly, I don't have enough tech savvy to give a positive feedback from using (and abusing) the Satiator.

That being said, I have 2 ebike batteries, a 36v and 48v. I have a seperate charger for each. The Satiator will charge both of them or do they require 2 different units? Also, how high voltage can they charge up to, for instance 72v?
Surly Ogre rigid 29er, rear 10T MAC @ 50V 25AH & 40A: 30mph road/gravel/hill machine
42" dual diagonal Eskateboard @6s & 90mm wheels
Next: eMTB @10-12s & 8"-12" pneumatic wheels; Got Strapped? d-(',')z

User avatar
voicecoils
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2288
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 6:31 am
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by voicecoils » May 26, 2014 8:04 am

Gab wrote:Also one important change if you could make it suit 72v packs also
teslanv wrote:Any chance you will develop one with a higher voltage range?
I'm sure Justin will chime in with more details but getting regulatory approval for higher voltage DC chargers is not trivial!

John in CR
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 13882
Joined: May 20, 2008 12:58 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by John in CR » May 26, 2014 10:21 am

With the word "Universal" my wishlist would include accepting variable DC input as low as 30-50V with the unit able to effectively handle the variances of solar panel output. :mrgreen:

999zip999
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8231
Joined: Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by 999zip999 » May 26, 2014 10:34 am

WoW ! Thanks Bro. Going forward. Wow

User avatar
Ypedal
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 13879
Joined: Dec 27, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: Moncton NB, Canada
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Ypedal » May 26, 2014 11:53 am

Any chance 2 of these chargers could be used in series ?
ES site status page:
http://www.ypedal.com/ES/ES.htm
----------------
http://www.ypedal.com

User avatar
gogo
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2601
Joined: Mar 17, 2008 2:20 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by gogo » May 26, 2014 12:09 pm

Things are going to be different now. :D
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking." -Steven Wright

User avatar
nicobie
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2430
Joined: Aug 07, 2008 1:48 pm
Location: Central Coast CA,USA

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by nicobie » May 26, 2014 12:31 pm

Ypedal wrote:Any chance 2 of these chargers could be used in series ?
I asked the same thing when talking to Justin at last years Makers Faire and he said that they would indeed work in series. :P
Image

May your tote always stay tight and your edge eversharp :wink:

my eTownie build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=23701

User avatar
justin_le
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 28, 2007 3:27 am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by justin_le » May 26, 2014 1:41 pm

John in CR wrote:With the word "Universal" my wishlist would include accepting variable DC input as low as 30-50V with the unit able to effectively handle the variances of solar panel output. :mrgreen:
It definitely works OK at 90V DC, so if you can double up a pair of these solar outputs in series it should do. I'll check later today on just how low of a DC voltage the PFC input can properly handle, even if at somewhat derated power outputs, we might be able to go a fair bit lower still as a lot of people have found running laptop adapters etc. off their 72V packs. My own "universal" wishlist also included the ability to work in reverse, taking the battery and stepping that into a 120V / 220V output AC sinewave inverter, either to run equipment or do discharge load tests on a battery by dumping the energy back into the grid. But even though most of the power components are there for that, some of the key control parts don't function bidirectionally. :cry:
Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with prototype 26" Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 11Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
justin_le
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 28, 2007 3:27 am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by justin_le » May 26, 2014 1:47 pm

nicobie wrote:
Ypedal wrote:Any chance 2 of these chargers could be used in series ?
I asked the same thing when talking to Justin at last years Makers Faire and he said that they would indeed work in series. :P
Yup, but series connection would still generally require a mid-point tap on the pack. So if your 72V or 96V or whatever setup is made of two 36V or 48V packs in series, then each pack just has its own charging port and it will work fine. But if you have a single monolithic battery at this voltage without access to a mid-point reference tap, and then wanted series connect the satiator outputs into a single + - connector that is 72V, that gets quite a bit more complicated and wouldn't be recommended.
Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with prototype 26" Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 11Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 24248
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by amberwolf » May 26, 2014 3:05 pm

That's great that it's finally "out"! Been wondering how long the red tape would take to cut thru. ;)


If I had the money to put into one, it'd be great to test on the new bike once it's built, with it built-in to the bike itself--it'd probably take the abuse and the heat of AZ better than anything else I can think of that would fit on a bike. For now I'll stick to the cheapie types I already have, and the big nonportable Sorenson if I have to charge really fast. :lol:


For those that intend to try this: When they're run on DC, are they running thru a bridge that's capable of handling the full input current demand for full wattage, on the half of the bridge that's being used when on DC?

User avatar
Ypedal
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 13879
Joined: Dec 27, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: Moncton NB, Canada
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Ypedal » May 26, 2014 3:17 pm

When flashing profiles via USB, would be cool to label the profiles.. ex: Chaos .. or Fatbike.. or KMX etc.. easier to spot than knowing your profiles by heart. ( for those of us who have more than a few bikes with high power lipo that can take the full 8 amps :P )
ES site status page:
http://www.ypedal.com/ES/ES.htm
----------------
http://www.ypedal.com

cwah
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4483
Joined: Jul 24, 2011 5:42 am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by cwah » May 26, 2014 7:22 pm

Finally a portable power supply!!

Too bad it doesn't work for higher voltage
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

User avatar
PaulD
100 W
100 W
Posts: 186
Joined: Aug 28, 2008 5:42 pm
Location: Ashland, OR
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by PaulD » May 26, 2014 7:59 pm

Awesome work, Justin. It's really impressive to get something like this in production with all of the approvals with a small team. Bravo!
I have a few low voltage bikes, so this will be perfect for my needs.

User avatar
ohzee
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2263
Joined: Jul 20, 2011 1:13 pm
Location: Columbus Ohio USA

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by ohzee » May 26, 2014 9:27 pm

Very nice. I look forward to buying one.

I like Justin's robe :) Had to look close , but at first I thought it was one.

Just read the attachments. This thing is bad ass.

User avatar
justin_le
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 28, 2007 3:27 am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by justin_le » May 26, 2014 11:24 pm

justin_le wrote: It definitely works OK at 90V DC,
I need to take that back. It works fine at 90V AC, but from a straight DC bus you need to get up to 120-130V in order to initially turn on the PFC stage, since it has a higher turn-on threshold than operating threshold. So yeah running off solar would require a relatively high voltage solar array.
Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with prototype 26" Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 11Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
justin_le
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 28, 2007 3:27 am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

72 Volts, not on the current wishing listing

Post by justin_le » May 27, 2014 12:25 am

voicecoils wrote:
Gab wrote:Also one important change if you could make it suit 72v packs also
teslanv wrote:Any chance you will develop one with a higher voltage range?
I'm sure Justin will chime in with more details but getting regulatory approval for higher voltage DC chargers is not trivial!
That's basically right. In principle it would be fairly straightforward to change some of the winding ratios and a few capacitors to make a higher voltage lower current unit (still 360 watts). But any devices that output over 60V have a different regime for regulatory and safety testing. Just the full lab certification alone was about $30K, so for now we needed to focus on a model with the highest chance of having widespread OEM users, since that's what it will take to recoup all the development costs.

You can look at our approach this way, the goal is to make a part that can have mainstream market appeal to hit the volumes required with turn-key ebike vendors, and then sneak in as many hacker/enthusiast features as possible. A 72V model off the bat wouldn't offer much advantage for turn-key ebike systems since they're all 48V or less, and the number of people interested in it here to charge up their massive 72V hobby LiPo clusters isn't likely to hit the quantities to make it worthwhile on a first run.

But I can promise you all this, if in the first year we do super well with the 48V 8A Satiator, then next on the roadmap for sure will be a 72V 5A variant and we'll jump through whatever hoops are needed to make that happen. Even though none of the cheap china chargers have any UL / CSA listings and people here seem fine with that, as a north american company with liability insurance coverage and all that we've got to do everything by the book.
Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with prototype 26" Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 11Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
Willow
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 831
Joined: Sep 06, 2011 7:42 pm
Location: Tasmania

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Willow » May 27, 2014 1:04 am

Awesome work lads... leading by example, and I love it.

...and I too look forward to a higher voltage model.

S.

User avatar
liveforphysics
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 14498
Joined: Oct 29, 2008 1:48 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by liveforphysics » May 27, 2014 2:10 am

Does the output have galvanic isolation from input?

If so, and you also have the capability to drive current at low voltages, your device could be programmed to know the voltage of CV supply/s and do higher voltage packs just fine. It could work for the 84S pack in the Palatov. If you want a tester for its use in a medium HV (345vdc max) pack, I volunteer and have a suitable CV block already. :-)
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

User avatar
dogman dan
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 34452
Joined: May 17, 2008 12:53 pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by dogman dan » May 27, 2014 9:13 am

Awesome sounding product, and well worth the price for some. I just wish I was in the smart set of ES dudes that could do the beta testing.

But I'll save for one I can use. :mrgreen: Just plug in and grin is more my speed.

It would be cool on a long tour to have one truly bombproof charger, that will charge the pack even if you had to modify it to another voltage along the way.

Or you might have half your battery lifepo4, the other half limn, or whatever.

User avatar
cal3thousand
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4044
Joined: Mar 26, 2012 4:47 pm
Location: California

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by cal3thousand » May 27, 2014 10:21 am

Oh man, I've been waiting for this ever since your trip to Maker Faire.

Going to hit up my couch for loose change, brb :wink:
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

User avatar
justin_le
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 28, 2007 3:27 am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by justin_le » May 27, 2014 3:24 pm

PaulD wrote:Awesome work, Justin. It's really impressive to get something like this in production with all of the approvals with a small team. Bravo!
I have a few low voltage bikes, so this will be perfect for my needs.
Hey Paul, be happy if this can serve your awesome creations well. If you or others on this list are committed to be in on the pilot/beta run, then either post your usage details here with a brief description of the setups you plan to run with it, or send an email to info@ebikes.ca. The process will be to create a login account on our website so we can add the beta satiator directly to your cart, and then the remaining checkout process from there should all be easily automated. Our goal is still to get the first shipments heading out on Friday of this week. We'll be including the USB adapter cables required for reflashing the fimware and all that. The 3rd pin in the XLR plug of the charger cable can serve as a signal line for LIN bus communications, and we have a simple adapter cable to connect a female 3-pin XLR into a TRS plug for the usb->ttl cable.
XLR to LIN Adapter.jpg
XLR to LIN Adapter.jpg (11.69 KiB) Viewed 13459 times
Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with prototype 26" Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 11Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

Post Reply