The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
User avatar
mistercrash   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 943
Joined: Mar 09 2011 11:01am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by mistercrash » Mar 02 2017 6:40am

Has this been resolved? My BMS Battery charger died in a puff of smoke yesterday. I was looking at getting a Satiator yesterday night but came accross this problem this morning. :|
I am so sorry that you are experiencing difficulty in your life, but if you send $10 at paypal.me/Ray1964
, you will be in my thoughts and prayers.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 25119
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by amberwolf » Mar 02 2017 1:43pm

It's just a very occasional display anomaly; don't let it stop you from getting and using one. :)

Mine's been charging various packs just fine; I've seen it a couple times in all the time I've used it (couple years now? time flies).


FWIW, the only thing I would consider a "killer app" sort of function yet to be added is the ability to use the third wire to sense which pack it's attached to and start the appropriate profile, if the option is enabled in that profile and globally.

It would let me mount the Satiator on the SB Cruiser in the seatbox and "wire it in", with a simple switch between the two different packs (14s traction or 4s lighting) and have it just automatically switch over, without having to have the screen or buttons visible/accessible.

Also would save a bit of frustration when my fingers aren't working right, and I have trouble getting in and out of the profile list/profile.

User avatar
mistercrash   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 943
Joined: Mar 09 2011 11:01am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by mistercrash » Mar 02 2017 1:58pm

amberwolf wrote:It's just a very occasional display anomaly; don't let it stop you from getting and using one. :)

Mine's been charging various packs just fine; I've seen it a couple times in all the time I've used it (couple years now? time flies).
At close to $500 CDN with the USB cable, taxes and shipping, I don't expect the charger to have bugs in it. Am I being too difficult?
I am so sorry that you are experiencing difficulty in your life, but if you send $10 at paypal.me/Ray1964
, you will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Marc S.   100 W

100 W
Posts: 215
Joined: Jul 04 2012 12:23pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Marc S. » Mar 03 2017 7:28am

mistercrash wrote:At close to $500 CDN with the USB cable, taxes and shipping, I don't expect the charger to have bugs in it. Am I being too difficult?
While I basically agree, I think its the 72V version of the Satiator that still got some hick-ups. Do you need the 72V version?

The 48V version works fine and I've never seen any garbeld display on my Satiator that is in daily use since it came out (it was one of the first available units, still running on beta firmware at that time).

User avatar
mistercrash   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 943
Joined: Mar 09 2011 11:01am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by mistercrash » Mar 03 2017 10:37am

Yes I need the 72V. A fix on the software is supposed to come very soon.
I am so sorry that you are experiencing difficulty in your life, but if you send $10 at paypal.me/Ray1964
, you will be in my thoughts and prayers.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 25119
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by amberwolf » Mar 03 2017 1:47pm

mistercrash wrote:At close to $500 CDN with the USB cable, taxes and shipping, I don't expect the charger to have bugs in it. Am I being too difficult?
It's your money, so you decide how to spend it. ;)

Personally, I also have an expectation of zero bugs--but I've never had any complex device like that; there's always been *something* wrong, somewhere, and usually the manufacturers won't even acknowledge that there is a problem, much less fix it, even if I can point to multiple reports online about the same issue. :/ So I've had to get used to devices with little problems all the way up to completely unusable "features" that were a major part of why I got them.

At least Grin is proactive about fixing things as they are found and reported. :)

But on the topic of expensive buggy things, how many people are carrying $500-$1000 phones around that crash, have to be rebooted daily just to dial it, lose all their data for inexplicable reasons, or have other assorted bugs...that the manufacturers (or coders, often the phone company itself with a customised OS) never even try to fix, or even admit to being a problem? How many cars that are many times that cost are purchased that have various bugs in them, some of which can cause fatal crashes when driving normally down the road? Computers with buggy code that never gets fixed...?

Just curious what you yourself do when you have such a device with a problem, or if you've been lucky enough to not have this happen?

User avatar
tomjasz   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3835
Joined: Mar 29 2014 1:45pm
Location: Out riding, MN USA
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by tomjasz » Mar 05 2017 1:45am

Marc S. wrote:
mistercrash wrote: The 48V version works fine and I've never seen any garbeld display on my Satiator that is in daily use since it came out (it was one of the first available units, still running on beta firmware at that time).
Absolutely perfect on 24, 36, 48, and 52V batteries for two years. Multiple programs and setting. Best caherger purchase ever. I assume the glitches if they exist will be solved. Fabulous customer service in my experience.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

User avatar
justin_le   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2152
Joined: May 28 2007 3:27am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by justin_le » Mar 08 2017 8:29pm

mistercrash wrote:Yes I need the 72V. A fix on the software is supposed to come very soon.
Just an update for anyone else who's experienced this OLED flicker with the 72V satiator devices, the cause was fully understood and is addressable with an update to the firmware, so there is no need for any hardware mod which is fortunate. We're still doing extensive in-house testing of a V1.018 release code just to cover all bases before we make it the new standard, but if anyone wants to have it sooner just send us an email and we can get you the FW to use ASAP.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
mistercrash   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 943
Joined: Mar 09 2011 11:01am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by mistercrash » Mar 08 2017 8:39pm

Thank you Justin. I just ordered a 72V for Guelph, ON. I left a note if it's possible to have the new firmware installed before shipping.

Thanks again
Ray
I am so sorry that you are experiencing difficulty in your life, but if you send $10 at paypal.me/Ray1964
, you will be in my thoughts and prayers.

JeffH   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 9
Joined: Feb 22 2016 10:18pm

Re: The Cycle Satiator, charging a tool battery

Post by JeffH » Mar 09 2017 4:56pm

Hi, A little off topic...

I'm wanting to charge a 40v 4ah 10S2p lithium pack that came with a SnowJoe cordless lawn tool through the BMS using a Cycle Satiator.

When plugged into the charge terminals on the pack the Satiator does not 'see' the battery voltage.
When a Force Start is invoked the Satiator hunts for a voltage but the BMS will not 'open' up to allow current flow.
I can charge through the power terminals but I rather use the BMS.

The pack has five terminals labeled,
P+, power out
C+, charge in
ID,
T, temperature
P/C- ground

The charger has four (it lacks the P+)

With power to the charger but no battery
C+ shows 42 volts
ID and T show 5 volts

The pack out of the charger shows 0.0 volts on the C+, ID, and T terminals.

When the pack is plugged into the charger, C+ shows pack voltage
ID and T show about 2.4 volts.

I have searched E-S for a clues and info but to no avail.

I applied 5 volts (actually about 5.6 volts) to the ID and T terminals of the pack (like the charger does), hooked up the Satiator but still the C+ remains at zero and a force start does nothing.

Anybody have a clue or can point me in the right direction?

TIA
Jeff

BTW my application is a pusher power unit for a wheelchair.
Around town I use a 48v 13s5p Ezee pack but it's too big to travel on the airlines.
The 160 watt-hr pack should be plenty for a day of rolling.
Attachments
17201120_10211636224876862_3044624111573185796_n.jpg
17201120_10211636224876862_3044624111573185796_n.jpg (91.74 KiB) Viewed 2833 times

User avatar
justin_le   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2152
Joined: May 28 2007 3:27am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, charging a tool battery

Post by justin_le » Mar 09 2017 5:34pm

JeffH wrote: When a Force Start is invoked the Satiator hunts for a voltage but the BMS will not 'open' up to allow current flow.
I can charge through the power terminals but I rather use the BMS.
Hey Jeff, what I would do is examine what is going on with the ID line using an oscilloscope the moment that the battery is plugged in and connected. If there is back and forth communication here then you'll be pretty hooped unless you want to get into some fairly deep hacking. If the signals stay analogue, then it shouldn't be too difficult to make up a simple circuit that emulates whatever your lawntool charger does to trick the lawntool battery into accepting a charge.

Bosch did something similar with all of their ebike battery packs, so the battery first has to be 'opened' for it to allow charging current to flow into the charge port, but there it simply requires 5V on the signal line. It was relateively easy to modify a Satiator's output so that a 5V regulator is powered from the Satiator's output and sends the necessary signal to the pack to open the charge port.

It's annoying but it is the trend for companies to try and "protect" against the use of 3rd party goods with consumer products.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 25119
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by amberwolf » Mar 09 2017 7:34pm

Most likely that 2.5v thing is a digital signal's average voltage (0v to 5v pulses); as noted above it's something some proprietary BMS's are designed around, so they can communicate pack information to the device, (maybe capacity, age, charge rate, etc? Probably just a pack ID number though, so the charger and device can look up what it is and know if it's ok to use or charge).

T could also be digital, if they're using one or more of the thermal sensor chips rather than an analog device. IIRC some of those have a bus that can have mulitple devices on a single data line.


The BMS might have a charging MOSFET with an accessible gate; if so you could "enable" the pack for charging by turning that on externally--but then the BMS won't be able to cut off charge if it needs to for balancing or whatever; it might also not perform any balancing functions if it has them but has to be triggered by the data lines. :/

Gets complex at that point if you wanna use the internal BMS to do the work. You might have to read the data lines and capture what is being sent, and resend that to it (stripped of the stuff that comes from the battery itself, if there is any, if possible).

JeffH   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 9
Joined: Feb 22 2016 10:18pm

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by JeffH » Mar 09 2017 9:22pm

Thx for the explanations, Justin and Amberwolf.

I really appreciate the insight, it might make a fun project figuring it out, but...

Since this will be a 'travel' pack used sporadically I believe that i'll just charge through the output when on the road, then balance charge in the proprietary charger between trips.

Ultimately, I'll probably go with a pair of Ligos.

Thanks again,
Jeff

User avatar
justin_le   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2152
Joined: May 28 2007 3:27am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

V1.019 Firmware release, solves OLED flicker on 72V devices

Post by justin_le » Mar 22 2017 6:56pm

justin_le wrote:
mistercrash wrote:Yes I need the 72V. A fix on the software is supposed to come very soon.
Just an update for anyone else who's experienced this OLED flicker with the 72V satiator devices, the cause was fully understood and is addressable with an update to the firmware, so there is no need for any hardware mod which is fortunate. We're still doing extensive in-house testing of a V1.018 release code just to cover all bases before we make it the new standard, but if anyone wants to have it sooner just send us an email and we can get you the FW to use ASAP.

I forgot to mention this here, but we've released the Satiator firmware V1.019 which addresses this behavior.
SatiatorCheckFW.jpg
SatiatorCheckFW.jpg (22.56 KiB) Viewed 2705 times
SatiatorFWDownload.jpg
SatiatorFWDownload.jpg (37.58 KiB) Viewed 2705 times
Compared to the 1.014 firmware this addresses two things in particular:
  • #1, Powerfault from BMS Tripping If you had a battery pack that was somewhat unbalanced and had a BMS circuit which would trip and then turn on and then trip an turn on rapidly at the end of charging, that would eventually cause the Satiator (both 48V and 72V models) to show a power fault error and require turning off and on to work again. This was observed most often in people with LiFePO4 batteries which have a really steep rise in cell voltage right at the end.
  • #2, OLED display flicker with 72V satiators at low currents If you have a 72V Satiator in which the display screen would glitch a bit with high voltage packs when it was at the CV portion of charging at around 1.5 amps, then that behavior will be settled too and the screen should stay steady all the time.
Hopefully that does the trick for everyone who has witnessed either of these behaviors. Otherwise if you didn't experience either of these issues then there won't be any difference so there's no real need to update.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
pucksterpete   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 319
Joined: Apr 15 2011 11:11am
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by pucksterpete » Mar 24 2017 3:27pm

Where can I get a copy of the Satiator Software Suite for Firmware?
Tnx
Pete
Optim Alp Hardtail with MXUS Motor
20S 2P Turnigy 5.0 Hard Case
Top speed 38mph tops :)
Hyena Special
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 97#p585997
-------
Excelsior/Strong GTS with Cromotor
24S 3P Turnigy 5.0 Hard Case
Top speed so far 53mph
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=46993

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 25119
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by amberwolf » Mar 25 2017 1:14am


User avatar
pucksterpete   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 319
Joined: Apr 15 2011 11:11am
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by pucksterpete » Mar 25 2017 4:13am

amberwolf wrote:On the http://ebikes.ca/satiator page. ;)

Thanks man
Optim Alp Hardtail with MXUS Motor
20S 2P Turnigy 5.0 Hard Case
Top speed 38mph tops :)
Hyena Special
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 97#p585997
-------
Excelsior/Strong GTS with Cromotor
24S 3P Turnigy 5.0 Hard Case
Top speed so far 53mph
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=46993

Tats   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 417
Joined: Apr 17 2014 9:51pm
Location: NOR Perth, worlds best kept secret, Australia

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Tats » Mar 25 2017 6:37am

Can someone check if this is working on a Mac pls - I've tried and after doing the check for firmware, when I try update firmware it opens a box asking me to select the file - but no file can be found. Cheers.

Marc S.   100 W

100 W
Posts: 215
Joined: Jul 04 2012 12:23pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Marc S. » Mar 26 2017 6:53am

Tats wrote:Can someone check if this is working on a Mac pls - I've tried and after doing the check for firmware, when I try update firmware it opens a box asking me to select the file - but no file can be found. Cheers.
Go to 'Update Satiator Firmware', new window opens, click on 'Browse' and select the 'v1.019.satiator' file.

Marc S.   100 W

100 W
Posts: 215
Joined: Jul 04 2012 12:23pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Marc S. » Mar 26 2017 6:56am

Found a bug! ;)

When I double click on the v.1.019 Satiator Software Suite.app, the program will not open (OS-X 10.8.5).

If I double click right after that on the older v.1.014 Satiator Software Suite.app, the v.1.019 Satiator Software Suite.app opens.

Tats   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 417
Joined: Apr 17 2014 9:51pm
Location: NOR Perth, worlds best kept secret, Australia

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by Tats » Mar 27 2017 5:17pm

Confirmed same for me - "When I double click on the v.1.019 Satiator Software Suite.app, the program will not open (OS-X 10.12.13). If I double click right after that on the older v.1.014 Satiator Software Suite.app, the v.1.019 Satiator Software Suite.app opens."

And, I cannot browse to find the new firmware.

User avatar
justin_le   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2152
Joined: May 28 2007 3:27am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by justin_le » Apr 06 2017 11:33pm

Tats wrote:Confirmed same for me - "When I double click on the v.1.019 Satiator Software Suite.app, the program will not open (OS-X 10.12.13). If I double click right after that on the older v.1.014 Satiator Software Suite.app, the v.1.019 Satiator Software Suite.app opens."
And, I cannot browse to find the new firmware.
Hey guys, thanks for pointing this out, we'll have someone look into what's going on and in the meantime I've made the default download for the MAC suite be the 1.014. There's no real need to change the actual software, you can use the previous software to update to the V1.019 firmware just fine.

Here is the direct link:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator ... v1.014.zip
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
pucksterpete   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 319
Joined: Apr 15 2011 11:11am
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by pucksterpete » Apr 11 2017 1:57am

The charger has been working GREAT!

Unfortunately now I am getting a error message when first turning on the unit.

error message shorted 0.3v and the voltage changes within this range for the error 0.2v - 0.4v

This is without any batter plugged in.

When I do plug my battery in, I get little pop spark at the charging connection.

The unit has not been exposed to any water or outside weather.

The charging connection pins or the anderson plugs contacts don't show any sign of contamination.

Any ideas?
Tnx
Pete
Optim Alp Hardtail with MXUS Motor
20S 2P Turnigy 5.0 Hard Case
Top speed 38mph tops :)
Hyena Special
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 97#p585997
-------
Excelsior/Strong GTS with Cromotor
24S 3P Turnigy 5.0 Hard Case
Top speed so far 53mph
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=46993

User avatar
robbie   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 48
Joined: Sep 28 2012 3:09pm

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by robbie » Apr 27 2017 11:45am

pucksterpete wrote:
error message shorted 0.3v and the voltage changes within this range for the error 0.2v - 0.4v

This is without any batter plugged in.

When I do plug my battery in, I get little pop spark at the charging connection.
This is a result of a failed soft-start circuit, hence the spark. For any other users experiencing this issue, simply email into Grin tech support (info@ebikes.ca) and they can help you out.

The chargers will continue working, but the message will be present until the battery is plugged in. That 0.2-0.4V is floating so that the Satiator knows if a battery is plugged in reverse polarity. Because that soft start circuit failed, it pulled that floating voltage down a bit, causing the normal floating voltage to be a bit lower than it should be, showing the error.

evolveinla   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Dec 07 2016 2:36pm

Re: The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiast

Post by evolveinla » Apr 27 2017 3:15pm

I'm having a similar problem with my 72v unit.

Worked perfectly for about 10 days, now it's giving an error message 'shorted 0.0v', regardless if the charging cable is connected or disconnected to the charger.

When you connect it to a pack, the charger starts charging normally, but it does spark/pop just like the previous user mentioned. Already contacted Grin about it, I'm sure they get it rectified. Other than this problem, I love the charger.
Attachments
IMG_20170427_082635527.jpg

Post Reply