Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
VesA
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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by VesA » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:45 pm

Chinese can apply some magic to lithium battery shipments. I don't know how they do it, but I have managed to get all my batteries in decent time.. one, 250Wh bike battery came directly via air mail. It was well packaged and didn't have any honest shipping data :D Local customs found it and were mildly suspicious.. but didn't open it. So I just declared it as 'bike parts' and paid taxes. Most battery shipments leave china - disappear - mysteriously materialize somewhere at a logistics partner inside EU and come as normal EU-mail bypassing all authorities.. so in most cases there is even no vat, no customs fees..

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by vex_zg » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:18 pm

VesA wrote:Chinese can apply some magic to lithium battery shipments. I don't know how they do it..
Yeah I often wonder what magic is being applied to the plane whenever I'm flying with my family :)

I also like fast and cheap but not comfortable flying on a plane thinking how many scooters with magicfire cells labeled as "toy parts" are in the trunk.

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spinningmagnets
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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by spinningmagnets » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:26 pm

Here's a new option (Thanks to ejonesss). "Roadie.com" is to shipping as Uber is to Taxis. You get the app, and a guy who lives near you and is driving to near the city you want to ship a package to picks it up and drops it off. Is it safe? Can they be trusted? Who knows...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =1&t=88731

https://www.roadie.com/

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Also, I am hearing that FedEx is a very good option for legally shipping a "properly labeled" lithium ebike battery pack across the USA 48-states. Print out the label from the web...

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by ebike11 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:12 am

Has anyone found a successful way to get batteries in Canada?
I need to send 2 36V packs. Each have 10 cells of course.
But many shippers say that lithium ion have to be charged to only 30% of their full capacity.
How can this be done? The pack would need to be resting at 11V or so :shock: :shock:

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by ebike11 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:13 am

ecotech wrote:Well from what I can tell as long as you don't send the batteries as batteries but send them as a package with something else , i.e. a battery charger that has all the batteries attached to it, then you can send it as a battery charger and not as a battery, that's how companies bypass the dangerous goods method which costs a lot, also if you ship via freight most will not care if there are batteries or not inside.
has anyone tried this?

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by vex_zg » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:20 am

I am in Sweden and there are no available shipping options for batteries in chinese shops (banggood, gearbest, fasttech...)

Maybe it's time I switched back to coal and oil as power sources and go the full circle.

I don't understand why they can't ship using boat or something, similar situation has happened few years ago and they shipped using boat and land transport, it took 2 months but at least it was possible to ship.

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amberwolf
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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by amberwolf » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:36 pm

I have no specific evidence for this, but based on some posts here on ES:

The vendors probably found that they couldn't sneak stuff past customs anymore without legitimate hazmat certifications, labelling correctly, etc.

I suspect that in some countries customs is more thorough than others, and those are where these vendors gave up trying, as it costs them too much to ship them properly, or they got too many customer complaints from the cost of customs duties, etc., when shipments were labelled with actual values and contents, etc. (or they weren't labelled and shipments were siezed or refused at customs).

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by vex_zg » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:26 pm

amberwolf wrote:I have no specific evidence for this, but based on some posts here on ES:

The vendors probably found that they couldn't sneak stuff past customs anymore without legitimate hazmat certifications, labelling correctly, etc.

I suspect that in some countries customs is more thorough than others, and those are where these vendors gave up trying, as it costs them too much to ship them properly, or they got too many customer complaints from the cost of customs duties, etc., when shipments were labelled with actual values and contents, etc. (or they weren't labelled and shipments were siezed or refused at customs).
Sure it does make sense and cells should be shipped properly for everybody's safety. It is probably not difficult to xray packets and check for cells. As I said earlier, I'd rather fly without superfire etc cells in the plane's trunk.

There is only one shop in whole Europe that I know can ship these cells inside Europe at decent prices (still somewhat higher than chinese shops). So obviously there is a way to ship cells to Europe.

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by hemo » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:28 am

Nkon in Holland ship using DPD, here in UK they arrived in 4 days in a regular cardboard box with battery labels on. All above board and proper, shipping was 10-12 euros.
The same cells form China are some what cheaper however doing the maths and once shipping is applied worked out a bit more expensive unless a very large order is made, a 3 week wait hoping that they turn up with none missing from any customs prying.

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by ebike11 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:26 am

Anyone know of a method to get lithium pack 10s pack into Canada?

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by Mugenski » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:19 pm

You can ship to Kinek and then drive over the border and pickup yourself. I recently received a large order via fedex, they didn't seem to mind shipping to Canada as long as it was properly labelled.
Last edited by Mugenski on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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spinningmagnets
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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by spinningmagnets » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:53 pm

I just had a discussion with a USPS supervisor recently. If there is a lithium battery in a shipment, they felt it was more acceptable if the battery was inside a device (smart-phone, flashlight, or laptop, etc), and if the package was properly labeled as "containing a lithium battery" then...if this criteria was met, it would simply be shipped by truck instead of airplane.

As usual, they had not heard anything about the "300-WH" limit (3.6V X 83-Ah), and were only concerned with if the package was properly labeled.

I tried to convince them that it is safer to have the lithium battery separate and wrapped in plastic, than installed in a device that might short from vibration and bouncing, but..."when you are trained to use a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by Hillhater » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:01 pm

hemo wrote:Nkon in Holland ship using DPD, here in UK they arrived in 4 days in a regular cardboard box with battery labels on. All above board and proper, shipping was 10-12 euros..
Fingers crossed that Brexit negotiations dont slam that door shut !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by vex_zg » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:46 pm

Hillhater wrote:
hemo wrote:Nkon in Holland ship using DPD, here in UK they arrived in 4 days in a regular cardboard box with battery labels on. All above board and proper, shipping was 10-12 euros..
Fingers crossed that Brexit negotiations dont slam that door shut !
Why would Brexit impact a Dutch store?

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by r3volved » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:33 pm

vex_zg wrote:Why would Brexit impact a Dutch store?
I think he means he hopes it doesn't negatively impact shipping requirements for the UK.

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by vex_zg » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:21 pm

r3volved wrote:
vex_zg wrote:Why would Brexit impact a Dutch store?
I think he means he hopes it doesn't negatively impact shipping requirements for the UK.
That was my first idea but his location is a bit off, Sydney. But whatever. Nkon is currently probably the only reasonable shop with lithium cells in EU.

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by atarijedi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:11 pm

ebike11 wrote:Anyone know of a method to get lithium pack 10s pack into Canada?
As far as I know, you need to ship to a border town in the US, and hop over and get it.

I've been looking at some great deals on Fasttech.com for 26650 batteries, and I want to purchase some, but they simply won't ship to Canada, not even a single battery. So I'm going to have to probably ship to Sweetgrass, Montana. Then drive there and pick them up. It's going to be a pain in the ass.

It's ridiculous really. HobbyKing will send me large 22.2v 20000mAh prismatic LiPo batteries, arguably more dangerous, but Fasttech won't sent small 3.7v 5000mAh cylindrical batteries.

I want to know if I will need any sort of paperwork in order to bring back a bunch of batteries over the border. Can only find stuff about shipping them by air.

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spinningmagnets
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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by spinningmagnets » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:42 am

From jonescg (very large shipment of lithium cells):

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1222228
If I get them sea-freighted it's a flat US$260, plus clearing fees when it arrives in Oz.
Air freight is US$1000 with all fees included. These are based on DHL I think.

The new fees came in after April this year in response to tighter regulations around air freighting lithium batteries. It hasn't gotten any safer, just more expensive to comply...In the past I've paid about US$450 for an equivalent shipment, so it's quite a significant jump.

Kirby - You'll find the bike can be sent sans battery easily, and the battery can be shipped separately with any firm who claims to be a specialist in lithium battery shipping. Pack N Send are actually pretty good with it, albeit a bit expensive. Of course you can sea freight it, but airfreight would be easiest.

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by spinningmagnets » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 am

From Justin, for his "LiGo" packs

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1306294
at the time we started developing the LiGo batteries the regulations were pretty clear allowing up to 20pcs of <100 Wh battery packs to be shipped without going as dangerous goods. In April of 2016 the rules got adjusted down to just 2 batteries, and since January 2017 most of the couriers (like Fedex, UPS) have an internal policy that they will not accept any lithium battery only shipment without it going as Class 9 Dangerous Goods cargo.

However, there is another category of batteries packed with equipment (not even packed in equipment) which they are happy to ship, and so lately we've been including a cosmetic defect ebike light, DC-DC converter, or other small items that can be powered off the LiGo battery. If they see that we are shipping a bike light with a couple spare battery packs all <100 Wh, then that is no problem. But without the light in there and just batteries only it has to go as Dangerous Goods (with the $60 DG surcharge, packed in vermiculite, and all that).

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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by bigmoose » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:41 am

This was a very nice flow chart from UPS, but it is dated 2015. I know the Air portion has changed in early 2017, but does anyone know if the GROUND portion is still valid? I searched and searched UPS but couldn't find their UPS Ground requirements for CONUS.
https://www.ups.com/assets/resources/me ... ations.pdf

So the 20Ahr A123 pouch cells look like they just barely exceed the 60WHr limit per cell. (say 66WHr when fully charged. ... or can you interpret the 60WHr cell limit based on the percent charge of the cell when shipped? So a 20Ah4 A123 pouch cell at 50% charge would be 33Whr.)
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spinningmagnets
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Re: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Post by spinningmagnets » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:01 am

I think if there was an insurance investigation after a fire, any surviving cells would be measured at 3.3V per cell and would pass muster as "X" watt hours. If a postal inspector asked you to open the shipment and verify the cells, a DMM could be used to prove 3.3V per cell, and if the cells appeared to have official looking labeling as to the Ah, then the supervisor could look up Volts X Ah = WH. Sounds complex, but I think it could be pulled off easily. Make sure to have a DMM and don't seal the box until its been accepted at the shipping desk. Show that each cell is individually wrapped, which is the real issue that I don't see being discussed...

Sounds like a hassle, but if you ship cells once a month, it would be worth generating a relationship with a specific postal supervisor at your local post office / FedEx / UPS shipping center. The good folks operating the counter often can't be relied on to really KNOW the latest regulations. Nobody wants to get yelled at by the boss and/or lose a possible up-coming promotion and/or get fired...

It is not unreasonable to expect the counter-employee to defer to not accepting a shipment, in the absence of a clear set of rules that they happen to be recently familiar with.

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