18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

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vicens   100 W

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by vicens » Oct 20 2015 5:39am

I can buy one SUNKKO 788+ and add about welding pen?
Connect as in the picture?
I want to make a battery packs 9x10 18650

http://es.aliexpress.com/store/product/ ... eb201560_9

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Post by kdog » Nov 24 2015 2:11am

I love this thread... So I'll post some results of some nickel strip testing I've done. Before you all get too excited this is rather rudimentary at this stage cause I don't have a IR gun.... So it's up to the ol' finger test :?
I wanted to see what heating was caused by current in a .2mmx8mmx100mm nickel strip.
Temp in my shed aprox 30deg C and I ran set current for a minute or so with the strip completely wrapped in my fingers to simulate thermal insulation.
Calculated amp carrying capacity should be .2x8x19/4= 7.6amps before warming occurs
Results are as follows.
<5A no perceptible heating
7A barely noticeable heating ( right on calc value)
10A slightly warm
12-15 warm- quite warm
After this heat production went up markedly...
16A really warm/hot
17A very hot
18A couldn't hold it for the minute
I think 10-12 amps continuous would be max acceptable (for me) in a battery I owned. In my mind, I have revised my peak vs continuous capacity. I expected more linear heating, and I'll remember that even small peaks caused rapid heating.
If I find an IR gun to borrow I'll get a bit more accurate.
It seems nobuo's table on the first page is accurate in this one off test but the values can be pushed a bit, depending on your thermal situation etc.
k

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Post by kdog » Nov 24 2015 5:23am

Re tested at cooler temps (15c) seems I can probly get up to 2-4 more amps out of this strip.
Still you want to work on worst case scenario so I wouldn't recommend it.
the SA of this strip is high compared to a round wire of comparative volume, so i guess that is an unrealistic advantage in cooler temps.
The insulation on the connecting 20gauge wire (.8mm)was starting to liquify at 18 amps (at the alligator clips) whilst the strip was hot but not uncomfortable ( not that I'd want this inside my pack)
Anyway it's interesting
K
(The good news for myself and RTL is that 18amp through .1x8mm copper caused only very mild heating- prob comparable to about 8-10amps in the .2 nickel)

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Post by ridethelightning » Nov 24 2015 7:38am

K
(The good news for myself and RTL is that 18amp through .1x8mm copper caused only very mild heating- prob comparable to about 8-10amps in the .2 nickel)[/quote]
so 0.1x80mm should be good for ~ 180A :D :D :D

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Post by Nobuo » Nov 24 2015 12:57pm

I will review soon some 0.2mm and greater thickness so I can update the table for greater strips and we can compare results.

My tests takes into account shrink wrap insulation and surface area for an average strip dimension, the maximum values are where the efficiency still very high (not appreciable voltage drop) and the temperature is just slightly over room temperature, and which from that point, the small increases amount of amps are noticiable exponentially increases on heat, so that's the maximum current recommended for an optimal efficiency and conductor worth.

I will also add more technical data to the tests as Voltage drop and differences in temperatures

Really good tests! thanks for sharing!
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Post by tomjasz » Nov 24 2015 2:23pm

vicens wrote:I can buy one SUNKKO 788+ and add about welding pen?
Connect as in the picture?
I want to make a battery packs 9x10 18650
I prefer JP Spot welder. If breaks it can be fixed. Sunkko has very poor support if there is a problem.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Post by kdog » Nov 25 2015 12:59am

Nobuo- I agree with your tables, the predicted amperage where heating started was spot on. Depending on many factors, one may be able to get away with a bit more but actually not that much maybe 2-4 amps. This does come with temp rise that may/may not be acceptable. I'll see if any friends have an IR gun and get some proper data.
@RTL-180amps, you're a crazy cat!!!

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Post by Monstarr » Dec 02 2015 7:56am

Monstarr wrote:
meelis11 wrote:
Punx0r wrote:Try a Type B circuit breaker - these are used for devices with large inrush currents (motors, transformers) to prevent nuisance tripping.
I had also similar problem - when turned welder on then breaker tripped. Connected welder to kitchen socket where normally electric oven is connected and no problem anymore, even when using 5m extension cord.
The inrush current is probably larger than the (i think) type B breaker allows. From what I've read, type A isn't used in home installations because it trips very very quickly.
I will try a type C or check which group this already has when I get home after work. (I don't have a 30A group)

Thanks for the information. I will post the results.
I apperently forgot the thing i promised in the bold part. I tried a C type breaker and it didnt trip as easy as a B type does. This allowed me to easily weld 0,15mm strips to the 26650 cells.
So use a C type breaker if you plan on using an aliexpress < €100 spotwelder.

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Post by tomjasz » Dec 18 2015 2:37pm

eTrike wrote:A few thoughts that I hope someone can provide insight for...

I'd like to weld with copper instead of nickel. A friend built a CD welder which was quite powerful (a bit too powerful over 15V) but I don't recall the Ws we calculated. I have read recently that these will work for welding copper to batteries.

I also came across plasma arc spot welders typically used for welding dissimilar metals for making jewelry. It seems these can be had fairly cheaply.

Are the recommended welders on the first post capable of welding copper?
The JP Welder found in the for sale threads will do copper, but why, when nickel works so well and is state of the current art?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Post by prensel » Dec 18 2015 8:09pm

Hi all,

A while ago i saw some Youtube video of an automated CNC like spot/batterywelder.
I can't find the link or name anymore... anyone seen it or know it ?

Thanks,

Paul

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Post by riba2233 » Dec 19 2015 11:49am

tomjasz wrote:
eTrike wrote:A few thoughts that I hope someone can provide insight for...

I'd like to weld with copper instead of nickel. A friend built a CD welder which was quite powerful (a bit too powerful over 15V) but I don't recall the Ws we calculated. I have read recently that these will work for welding copper to batteries.

I also came across plasma arc spot welders typically used for welding dissimilar metals for making jewelry. It seems these can be had fairly cheaply.

Are the recommended welders on the first post capable of welding copper?
The JP Welder found in the for sale threads will do copper, but why, when nickel works so well and is state of the current art?

Yeah, copper can be welded, but it's not as reliable as nickel. I always prefer welding nickel, and then soldering copper on it, it's much more reliable and can carry more amps. And it doesn't take much more time.

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Post by ridethelightning » Dec 29 2015 6:28pm

with the right setup, copper is not so hard to weld. its all about the electrode tips and the power required.
i used a dn10 with 1.5mm tungsten tips set into the copper electrodes, i had to modify the dn10 pulse time with 555 timer circuit to get the pulse short enough,
i suspect the JP welder would do a good job too with a large enough power source, it would be even more adjustable.
copper is cheaper and will carry much more current for the same thickness, perhaps something that really only comes into play with packs designed for really high current...
this one is good for ~190A
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Post by mistercrash » Dec 31 2015 12:01pm

Instead of Nickel, how about Zinc?

I searched and compared the different kinds of Nickel sheets offered by OnlineMetals and the cheapest I found is Nickel A286. I chose a dimension of 1.57 mm by 12 inches by 24 inches and the price is 263.01 before shipping.
Then I looked for Zinc sheets, there is only one kind offered, Zinc EN 988. Again I chose a dimension of 1.57 mm by 12 inches by 24 inches and the price is 67.93 before shipping.

I also saw somewhere on the web that Zinc offers less resistance than Nickel.
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Post by tomjasz » Dec 31 2015 5:01pm

I get looking for alternatives, but there is a reason ALL, repeat, ALL builders use nickel. If it's not broke...
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Post by mistercrash » Dec 31 2015 7:25pm

eTrike wrote:Nickel is cheap, easy and corrosion resistant
Zinc is corrosion resistant and a lot cheaper than Nickel. Look at the prices I posted above. It also offers less resistance than Nickel. Is there a Metallurgist in the house? :lol:
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Post by mistercrash » Dec 31 2015 7:45pm

Sorry about that eTrike.

I read that with welding Zinc, good ventilation is paramount as fumes will cause galvanize poisoning. Which causes severe headaches and nausea. So that would be one reason why it is less popular than Nickel. But the advantages are still there, less resistance than Nickel, a quarter of the price of Nickel, it has corrosion resistance like Nickel, less heat needed to weld as it melts at a much lower temp than Nickel. Where's that Metallurgist?
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Post by tomjasz » Dec 31 2015 7:50pm

I guess hundreds of battery builders ain't enough. :wink:
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Post by mistercrash » Jan 01 2016 12:08pm

Yup! It's going to take a lot of more reasons than just "everybody does it like that". :)
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Post by tomjasz » Jan 01 2016 12:39pm

I see it much like the wheel, not much to do to improve on round. Until someone decides to run a series of tests with real data it's just all talk. Fine by me, I prefer to stay with what has been shown to work. If there was a cheaper material do we think for two seconds the Chinese wouldn't have adopted it? Or does logic not play into this. What someone with lots of disposable cash does on the track trying to break records and what a hobbiest will do to build a battery might be different paths? Hey have fun. Just suggesting if it ain't broke... :D
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Post by mistercrash » Jan 01 2016 2:07pm

I understand perfectly where you're coming from tomjasz. Most of the times I think the exact same way. But this bugs me about Zinc. Maybe I should change my question. Considering that Zinc is almost four times cheaper than Nickel, that it has a bit less electrical resistance and is corrosion resistant just like Nickel, than why isn't everybody using Zinc? Is the need for good ventilation the only drawback of using Zinc or is there other reasons?
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Post by Punx0r » Jan 01 2016 3:02pm

Have you considered whether it can actually be welded to a cell can?

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Post by mistercrash » Jan 01 2016 4:03pm

Punx0r wrote:Have you considered whether it can actually be welded to a cell can?
Yes I have but I did not find the answer. Do you know the answer?
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Post by Arlo1 » Jan 01 2016 11:28pm

eTrike wrote:If copper can be I'm sure Zinc can be. The same question led me to the jewelry welder question above. IDK why the copper hate--.
I think copper has its place. But I have a stack of liFePo4 that used copper tabs spot welded to the end of the cells and the copper failed to take the repeated stress of heating/cooling/vibrations in the application it was used in. The copper tore holes where all the spot welds were.
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Post by Offroader » Jan 02 2016 1:57am

Nice thread for helping locate 18650 build parts.

Quick questions I was hoping to get some feedback on.

I am looking to buy a large battery shrink wrap and they come in a lot of sizes.

Should I buy a size that is on the bigger size but will still shrink enough to fit around the pack. Or should I buy a size that will just fit my battery into it? I am not sure if it is better to go looser or tighter with the wrap.

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Post by ridethelightning » Jan 02 2016 6:22am

Arlo1 wrote:
eTrike wrote:If copper can be I'm sure Zinc can be. The same question led me to the jewelry welder question above. IDK why the copper hate--.
I think copper has its place. But I have a stack of liFePo4 that used copper tabs spot welded to the end of the cells and the copper failed to take the repeated stress of heating/cooling/vibrations in the application it was used in. The copper tore holes where all the spot welds were.
i realise copper has limited mechanical resilience...but tell me , did the lifepo4 pack rely on the cell tabs to hold it together?
even with nickel, i would only rely on the tabs to function as conductors, not to hold the pack together. that is the job of lots of hotglue :lol:

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