18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by riba2233 » Feb 17 2016 7:06am

Yeah but you must be aware that the nickel strip will release it's heat on cell poles, so it it's short piece, uninsulated, and welded to cell, it can carry at least double the current than the standard wire can. We are talking about different conditions.
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Post by markz » Feb 19 2016 12:07am

Can I use this battery tab weld timer for regular transformer welding?
I need something that will vary the voltage, Auto Transformer aka Variac, also mentions a Solid State Dimmer for inductive loads.
Last edited by markz on Feb 22 2016 3:17am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Punx0r » Feb 19 2016 4:12am

Normal warnings: The output of a MW transformer is very dangerous and touching the capacitor (which can apparently hold a charge for a long time) it is connected to is suicide.

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Post by Skrzypas » Feb 20 2016 8:58am

Offroader wrote: Let me know how it works out, when I got my welder I was pushing hard and couldn't weld anything, so then I pushed even harder :D . I also thought the harder you push the stronger the weld. It is complete opposite and this factor made a huge difference in what I could weld.
Well, I did some welding today. I cut locally on half the stripes (0.3x7.0 pure nickel), pressed the electrodes very lightly and finally I got more or less repeatable welds, pretty strong!

Thank you for the hint! Some pictures:

Cells glued together:
Image

Prepared strips:
Image

2 of 16 S semi-welded, (small box under damper):
Image

Do these welds look ok? Aren't they too much burned?

I decided to leave old stripes here and there. I hope it'll not increase resistance significantly.

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Post by bikegeek » Feb 20 2016 11:47am

Are you sure you are using pure nickel strips? It looks like steel plated.

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Post by Skrzypas » Feb 20 2016 12:58pm

bikegeek wrote:Are you sure you are using pure nickel strips? It looks like steel plated.
Yes, I did SEM-EDS measurement at work. >99,7% nickel throughout stripe crossection.

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Post by bikegeek » Feb 21 2016 12:58pm

The welded spots look very dark and I had this only on nickel plated steel.

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Post by Punx0r » Feb 21 2016 2:26pm

You can see the same discolouration where welds have been made on the remains of the original nickel strips that were originally welded to the cells. Also, an EDX analysis isn't going to confuse steel for nickel ;)

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Post by Offroader » Feb 21 2016 6:52pm

I'm experimenting with .3 nickel right now. .3 nickel is difficult to weld because it is so thick.

I'm going to try and increase my amps to try and see if higher amps lower pulse time helps.

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Post by LikeToRideMyBike » Feb 21 2016 8:15pm

So I bought the Sunko 709A upgraded which is one of the spot welders recommended for the USA, but the two pins on the welding head weld unevenly. One side will burn through the .15 nickel strip while the other does a fine weld. The one pin is stronger than the other. Welds are inconsistent as well. Has anyone else had this problem with this welder? Can it be fixed?

thanks all :|

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Post by DVDRW » Feb 22 2016 3:20am

Skrzypas consider using insulators @positive side.
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Post by Lurkin » Feb 22 2016 4:56am

I have a 1000 of these on order :lol:

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Post by Nobuo » Feb 22 2016 8:42am

LikeToRideMyBike wrote:So I bought the Sunko 709A upgraded which is one of the spot welders recommended for the USA, but the two pins on the welding head weld unevenly. One side will burn through the .15 nickel strip while the other does a fine weld. The one pin is stronger than the other. Welds are inconsistent as well. Has anyone else had this problem with this welder? Can it be fixed?

thanks all :|
Which current level are you using? ( 0 - 8 )

are you referring about the static electrodes or the hand probes electrodes?

for the static electrodes, on the upper side there is a strength pressure knob, adjust to the harder level.

for the hand probes electrodes, try to attack highly perpendicular and with considerably force.

If you have burns with a good contact between electrodes, nickel and cell surface (or another nickel layer), the current is too high.
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Post by Offroader » Feb 22 2016 12:06pm

DVDRW wrote:Skrzypas consider using insulators @positive side.
Image

If anyone needs to buy those the cheapest place by far I found them were from FastTech. Most other places were very expensive for what they are.
Very good quality from FastTech. They sell them in 2, 3, or 4 length.


https://www.fasttech.com/products/1425/10012815/3952701

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Post by LikeToRideMyBike » Feb 22 2016 12:48pm

Nobuo wrote:
LikeToRideMyBike wrote:So I bought the Sunko 709A upgraded which is one of the spot welders recommended for the USA, but the two pins on the welding head weld unevenly. One side will burn through the .15 nickel strip while the other does a fine weld. The one pin is stronger than the other. Welds are inconsistent as well. Has anyone else had this problem with this welder? Can it be fixed?

thanks all :|
Which current level are you using? ( 0 - 8 )

are you referring about the static electrodes or the hand probes electrodes?

for the static electrodes, on the upper side there is a strength pressure knob, adjust to the harder level.

for the hand probes electrodes, try to attack highly perpendicular and with considerably force.

If you have burns with a good contact between electrodes, nickel and cell surface (or another nickel layer), the current is too high.
Hi, thanks for your comment. I've used all levels of current and pulse with the same result. I'm referring to the static electrodes. The hand probes don't even make a dent in the .15 nickel. I'll attach a picture to show you but one side seems to have more current passing through than the other. The seller is on help at all. They say it's "working fine" when clearly it's not. I've sent multiple pictures and a video. I know these are good welders. I just want one that works properly.
Attachments
photo-11.JPG

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Offroader   10 MW

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Post by Offroader » Feb 22 2016 1:50pm

I think uneven welding may be normal somehow. Even with the JP welder using the probes, one side seems to sometimes weld better than the other. Others have also noticed this. But most of the time it seems to weld evenly.

I don't know if this is because of uneven pressure with the probes or different angles from holding one in your right and one in your left. I tend to think it has something to do with the way the current flows from the positive to negative probe.

But the good thing is using hand probes I can adjust the pressure to even everything out, like pushing a little less hard with one probe than the other.

Maybe it really just has to do with the pressure of the probes as this has the largest difference.

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Post by Skrzypas » Feb 22 2016 2:29pm

Offroader wrote:
DVDRW wrote:Skrzypas consider using insulators @positive side.
Image

If anyone needs to buy those the cheapest place by far I found them were from FastTech. Most other places were very expensive for what they are.
Very good quality from FastTech. They sell them in 2, 3, or 4 length.


https://www.fasttech.com/products/1425/10012815/3952701
Ordered 300pcs.

Until they arrive I'll continue welding negatives :P

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Post by markz » Feb 22 2016 3:02pm

I ordered Fast Techs white single stickers and they seem to stick very well. I have had my seperators/holders off and on a few times and they stay on. It takes a bit of finesse (not much) to line them up so its centered.

Remember to get shipment via ePacket, its much quicker then other methods. Mine took a week or two with ePacket while my first purchase took about 2 months.

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Post by LikeToRideMyBike » Feb 22 2016 10:04pm

Offroader wrote:I think uneven welding may be normal somehow. Even with the JP welder using the probes, one side seems to sometimes weld better than the other. Others have also noticed this. But most of the time it seems to weld evenly.

I don't know if this is because of uneven pressure with the probes or different angles from holding one in your right and one in your left. I tend to think it has something to do with the way the current flows from the positive to negative probe.

But the good thing is using hand probes I can adjust the pressure to even everything out, like pushing a little less hard with one probe than the other.

Maybe it really just has to do with the pressure of the probes as this has the largest difference.
Do you think these uneven welds will be ok? I mean do you think they'll do the job? Obviously they are not ideal, but they are hard to pull off with pliers. I just don't want to ruin perfectly good brand new cells because of this welder if you know what I mean :?

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Post by Offroader » Feb 22 2016 10:29pm

LikeToRideMyBike wrote:
Offroader wrote:I think uneven welding may be normal somehow. Even with the JP welder using the probes, one side seems to sometimes weld better than the other. Others have also noticed this. But most of the time it seems to weld evenly.

I don't know if this is because of uneven pressure with the probes or different angles from holding one in your right and one in your left. I tend to think it has something to do with the way the current flows from the positive to negative probe.

But the good thing is using hand probes I can adjust the pressure to even everything out, like pushing a little less hard with one probe than the other.

Maybe it really just has to do with the pressure of the probes as this has the largest difference.
Do you think these uneven welds will be ok? I mean do you think they'll do the job? Obviously they are not ideal, but they are hard to pull off with pliers. I just don't want to ruin perfectly good brand new cells because of this welder if you know what I mean :?
I would say probably, but I wouldn't personally trust it. Worst case you are just wasting a little bit of battery energy to heat. You would have to check if the welds are getting hot somehow during discharge.

I would say if one side is without doubt always weaker and you can't adjust the pressure of the probes, maybe try filing the probe down a little to be smaller on the weaker side?

If you think about it all the probes are doing is passing a current from one probe to the other, so if one side is stronger it has to be something with the copper probes. Most likely something with the pressure.
You will have to experiment to figure out how to get the welds even, either by filing down a probe (maybe more pointy or shorter), or holding the battery in a way to change the pressure.

If you figure it out then let us know.

You could always buy a JP welder a call it a day also.

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Post by LikeToRideMyBike » Feb 22 2016 10:55pm

Offroader wrote:
LikeToRideMyBike wrote:
Offroader wrote:I think uneven welding may be normal somehow. Even with the JP welder using the probes, one side seems to sometimes weld better than the other. Others have also noticed this. But most of the time it seems to weld evenly.

I don't know if this is because of uneven pressure with the probes or different angles from holding one in your right and one in your left. I tend to think it has something to do with the way the current flows from the positive to negative probe.

But the good thing is using hand probes I can adjust the pressure to even everything out, like pushing a little less hard with one probe than the other.

Maybe it really just has to do with the pressure of the probes as this has the largest difference.
Do you think these uneven welds will be ok? I mean do you think they'll do the job? Obviously they are not ideal, but they are hard to pull off with pliers. I just don't want to ruin perfectly good brand new cells because of this welder if you know what I mean :?
I would say probably, but I wouldn't personally trust it. Worst case you are just wasting a little bit of battery energy to heat. You would have to check if the welds are getting hot somehow during discharge.

I would say if one side is without doubt always weaker and you can't adjust the pressure of the probes, maybe try filing the probe down a little to be smaller on the weaker side?

If you think about it all the probes are doing is passing a current from one probe to the other, so if one side is stronger it has to be something with the copper probes. Most likely something with the pressure.
You will have to experiment to figure out how to get the welds even, either by filing down a probe (maybe more pointy or shorter), or holding the battery in a way to change the pressure.

If you figure it out then let us know.

You could always buy a JP welder a call it a day also.
Thanks for the advice. I will experiment further to try and find the right pressure or current or whatever is happening. I would buy a JP welder but he's out of stock. Dang it!

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Post by LikeToRideMyBike » Feb 23 2016 12:46am

Well, it looks like your suggestions worked Offroader. I filed down the weak pin quite a bite and gave it a little point. Not too sharp, but pointed. Then I raised it a little higher than the stronger pin. And when i apply pressure for the weld I tilt the cell toward the stronger pin. So far has put out consistent, even, strong welds. Thank you so much for the advise. So much!
My cells arrive the day after tomorrow. Tomorrow I will do more testing before I begin production, but I looks like I'm good to go. :wink:

But let me ask you this... Is it better to have your current high or your pulse high? For example: I can either have my pulse at 8p and my current at 6a, or I can have 6p and 8a for .15mm nickel. Either setting will work, but which one is better?

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Post by Offroader » Feb 23 2016 2:35am

LikeToRideMyBike wrote:Well, it looks like your suggestions worked Offroader. I filed down the weak pin quite a bite and gave it a little point. Not too sharp, but pointed. Then I raised it a little higher than the stronger pin. And when i apply pressure for the weld I tilt the cell toward the stronger pin. So far has put out consistent, even, strong welds. Thank you so much for the advise. So much!
My cells arrive the day after tomorrow. Tomorrow I will do more testing before I begin production, but I looks like I'm good to go. :wink:

But let me ask you this... Is it better to have your current high or your pulse high? For example: I can either have my pulse at 8p and my current at 6a, or I can have 6p and 8a for .15mm nickel. Either setting will work, but which one is better?
That is good to hear it worked. I ran into similar issues with my JP welder and also an issue of not being to get both sides welded strongly. I was pushing way too hard. By a bit of luck I somehow determined that all the inconsistency was how much pressure I was using. Surprisingly, nobody has ever commented on this once before in all the welding threads I read on the forum, which still surprises me because pressure seems to be a huge factor.

With the high current vs high pulse, I have actually asked this same question a few times already :D . Nobody has yet to give me an answer.

I think the issue is there are just too many variables when welding it is hard to give an answer.

Well, the best answer I think I got when asking the pulse time, was to experiment.Which I think holds true in your case.

With the JP welder we can't as easily adjust the amp setting like you can, we would have to add or remove batteries. Which I will actually be doing soon to try and figure out how best to weld .3 nickel.

What I would recommend is you get a disposable junk battery, like a C size battery or old 18650 and some extra nickel and keep testing the different settings. Just pull off the old weld and file the battery slightly to remove the old welds and keep trying the different settings until you see what seems to have the best welds (2 holes when pulled off without burning). If you weld at the tip of the nickel strip you can pull it off and weld again to the same strip to get a lot of uses.
I've welded like over 50 times to a single battery.

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Post by Mr Lowbank » Feb 23 2016 6:18am

Hi All
Have been mining the Endless sphere for information to build a new pack for my Bomber #127. Thanks to forum members for all the great information.

I decided against 20s14p as it would be a tight fit, weigh more and I really don't think I need the amps. I'm hoping for Sanyo NCR 18650GA Cells but Tumich is out of the GA"s!!. Will be installing Max-E controller and have crystalyte 5405 and 5404 motors.
I have a JP spot welder on the way along with all the other bits I think I might need. After taking onboard all the info about building batteries I have come up with the following design. I'm interested in any comments.
Cheers Jon

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Post by Punx0r » Feb 23 2016 7:38am

The arrangement looks perfect for current balance between cells. Physical construction may be an issue since it looks like you're not using cell holders/spacers.

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