Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

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hillzofvalp   1 MW

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by hillzofvalp » Nov 14 2015 10:37am

Could someone please do a comparison of the Panny BE to the 30Q?

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riba2233   1 MW

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by riba2233 » Nov 14 2015 5:50pm

hillzofvalp wrote:Could someone please do a comparison of the Panny BE to the 30Q?

They are not in the same category, one is middle C rate, other is high C rate cell.

But here is something:

http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkuvergleich. ... akku6=&a=5
My electric moped: http://www.evalbum.com/4966

My electric car: http://www.evalbum.com/5364

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bigbore   10 kW

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bigbore » Nov 14 2015 6:52pm

Hillhater wrote:Have you compared 18650 voltage sag to some decent RC Lipos ?
I suspect you will be losing some voltage on a like for like pack.
bellfador wrote:VTC5A has low DC Internal Resistance but lipo has less (approximately 10 mOhm/Ah).

Image
Yes, It's the last thing I need to understand. The 5Ah LiPos I've been using are discharged at 10C and I don't remember the voltage I have while running full throttle. I do not have a telemetry to do the measurements but a couple of time a friend of mine mounted his Heagle Tree telemetry on my RC boat but I need to find the data.
With iCharger I measures my 5Ah LiPo cells at a temperature aroud 18-20 °C with a voltage of the cells at 4,15V and I have the minimum cell at 2mOhm and the maximum cell at 8mOhm. With the max I read it would be 1,6 mOhm/Ah.
Tomorrow I will try to charge a LG HE2 at 4,15V and then let's see what IR I have.
I don't know if iCharger is accurate in the IR readings but at least do not measures the cells IR while charging like other RC chargers.

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bellfador » Nov 15 2015 1:35am

The charger measure only AC internal resistence and also the measurement is inaccurately. In your case the voltage sag is linked to DC internal resistence and DCIR > ACIR.

Your calculation is wrong . 8 mOhm for 5Ah is equal to 40 mOhm/Ah.

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by Allex » Nov 15 2015 5:07pm

my comaprison with pf vs he2 vs 30q
Sorry, the graph is tricky to read!
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30QvsHE2.jpg
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bellfador   10 mW

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bellfador » Nov 16 2015 5:39am

How is measured the internal resistance?

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by Allex » Nov 16 2015 12:43pm


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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bellfador » Nov 16 2015 1:56pm

Here are my testings of 30Q.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=73701
I see some differences, but is close to DCIR.

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by Allex » Nov 16 2015 2:14pm

Yup but you should not compare my iR results with yours, we have different rigs.

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bigbore   10 kW

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bigbore » Nov 16 2015 2:50pm

bellfador wrote:The charger measure only AC internal resistence and also the measurement is inaccurately. In your case the voltage sag is linked to DC internal resistence and DCIR > ACIR.

Your calculation is wrong . 8 mOhm for 5Ah is equal to 40 mOhm/Ah.
I think you're wrong because 40 mOhm/Ah x 5 Ah = 200 mOhm

But anyway it seems I can not measure just one cell IR with iCharger right now. I think is designed to measure at least a 2S pack.

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bellfador » Nov 16 2015 3:12pm

Simple example:
One cell with 2Ah, 20 mOhm have 40 mOhm /Ah because when are connected two cell in parallel each with 1Ah, 40 mOhm summary capacitance will be 2Ah and internal resistance - 20 mOhm.

...Resistors in paralel: R12 = (R1*R2) / (R1+R2).

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bigbore » Nov 16 2015 3:46pm

AH!, OK, now I see what you mean and you're correct.

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by okashira » Nov 16 2015 4:12pm

bellfador wrote:Easy calcs... 3S 1300 mAh turnigy nano 25-50C weight 139g, or 46.3g per cell. Dc internal resistence will be approximaly 7.7 mOhm or 166 mOhm /g and 37 mOhm/Wh. VTC5A have 377 mOhm /g and 152 mOhm/ Wh. Soon I will make a test on some lipo and I can tell with sure.
Prett sure you got the units messed up there.
You don't want to use mohm/gram, you want to use something like mohm*gram or 1/(mohm*gram)

Or better yet use some consistent critera to determine max acceptable power for a cell.

For example, you'd accept no less then 3.3V a cell under load from full charge to determine peak 5 sec burst current. For a 30Q, this might be about 35-40A. Call it 40.
That's 40*3.3=132W. at 46g: 132W/46g = 2869 W/kg
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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bellfador » Nov 17 2015 1:29pm

Yes, mOhm*gram is correct.

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by oneoone » Nov 24 2015 3:31pm

SO for someone with limited knowledge of cells, would this be a good cell to build a battery pack out of? I am looking at purchasing a small 14S6P triangle frame pack from em3ev made with 30q's. Is this a good choice for a bbshd?

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by bigbore » Nov 25 2015 11:00am

oneoone wrote:SO for someone with limited knowledge of cells, would this be a good cell to build a battery pack out of? I am looking at purchasing a small 14S6P triangle frame pack from em3ev made with 30q's. Is this a good choice for a bbshd?
I think if 3Kw continuous power is enough for you you can go that way

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by okashira » Jan 22 2016 10:20pm

Image

Updated 30Q data. Need to add Model S cell data.
Note that it's been cold in the house since I restarted, I think that accounts for all of the lost capacity. It was much warmer in July when I stopped. Cell was stored at 3.1V
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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by okashira » Jan 22 2016 11:23pm

Added all Model S Cell data to date.
I can offer no explanation for the strange behavior of the Model S cell. It seems to have actually picked up capacity after storage for six months at 3.2V. The data is real and I have verified it's good.
Image

I am going to double check and make sure I didn't hook up the wrong cell tomorrow....
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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by Pajda » Jan 24 2016 5:23am

okashira wrote:Added all Model S Cell data to date.
I can offer no explanation for the strange behavior of the Model S cell. It seems to have actually picked up capacity after storage for six months at 3.2V. The data is real and I have verified it's good.

I am going to double check and make sure I didn't hook up the wrong cell tomorrow....
I have no scientific explanation too, but this seems to be a common behavior of Li-Ion cells. So I am only somewhat confused about Samsung cell, that it did not picked up some capacity as well.

I have noticed during cycle life tests of Li-Ion cells that the rest time between CHG and DCHG plays significant role in cycle life too. Even couple of hours rest time instead of standard 10-15min regain a few percent of usable capacity. It can be seen on my graph below. I am using 20 cycle tests, so the small peaks shows influence of another couple of minutes to hours of rest time between starting next 20 cycles. And after a 390 cycle you can see influence of ca 12 days rest time.

Image

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by okashira » Jan 31 2016 8:22pm

Pajda wrote:
okashira wrote:Added all Model S Cell data to date.
I can offer no explanation for the strange behavior of the Model S cell. It seems to have actually picked up capacity after storage for six months at 3.2V. The data is real and I have verified it's good.

I am going to double check and make sure I didn't hook up the wrong cell tomorrow....
I have no scientific explanation too, but this seems to be a common behavior of Li-Ion cells. So I am only somewhat confused about Samsung cell, that it did not picked up some capacity as well.

I have noticed during cycle life tests of Li-Ion cells that the rest time between CHG and DCHG plays significant role in cycle life too. Even couple of hours rest time instead of standard 10-15min regain a few percent of usable capacity. It can be seen on my graph below. I am using 20 cycle tests, so the small peaks shows influence of another couple of minutes to hours of rest time between starting next 20 cycles. And after a 390 cycle you can see influence of ca 12 days rest time.
Wow that is really terrible cycle life on your full DOD test.
Keep in mind, when I restarted, the temperature was much cooler. The 30Q may have picked up a tiny.

I did go through all the cells I had sitting on the tester. They all tested higher then the cell I had in there. I am pretty sure it's the right one so I'm back to cycling it. I did lose about 15 cycle of data though. :-/

Updated with 30Q data, over 500 now. You can see where I finally got my heater fixed and recently we had a heat wave. :))
Image
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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by ridethelightning » Feb 01 2016 3:19pm

gee. the 30q seems to have flattened off nicely.

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by okashira » Feb 01 2016 3:34pm

ridethelightning wrote:gee. the 30q seems to have flattened off nicely.
Mostly due to warming. When I restarted testing, temperature was about 64 ambient. Recently I fixed the heater in the house and we had a heat wave. I suspect it will start falling again
Guess I should revise the "75°F" at the top of the chart. :)
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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by ridethelightning » Feb 03 2016 2:17am

okashira wrote:
ridethelightning wrote:gee. the 30q seems to have flattened off nicely.
Mostly due to warming. When I restarted testing, temperature was about 64 ambient. Recently I fixed the heater in the house and we had a heat wave. I suspect it will start falling again
Guess I should revise the "75°F" at the top of the chart. :)
so, does that mean that running the cycles at low temp was actually accelerating permenent capacity loss?
cause now they seem to be sticking to a line that suggests that the capacity loss in the first tests has stopped altogether..but neither has the cell gained capacity much at the new higher temp.

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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by okashira » Feb 03 2016 1:03pm

ridethelightning wrote:
okashira wrote:
ridethelightning wrote:gee. the 30q seems to have flattened off nicely.
Mostly due to warming. When I restarted testing, temperature was about 64 ambient. Recently I fixed the heater in the house and we had a heat wave. I suspect it will start falling again
Guess I should revise the "75°F" at the top of the chart. :)
so, does that mean that running the cycles at low temp was actually accelerating permenent capacity loss?
cause now they seem to be sticking to a line that suggests that the capacity loss in the first tests has stopped altogether..but neither has the cell gained capacity much at the new higher temp.
No... the temp rise was slow and the capacity loss countered it and so you got a flat-line. It was just a coincidence.
Capacity will fall again when it cools down in the house, or rise again when it warms.
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Re: Samsung 30Q INR18650-30Q 3000mah 15a cell

Post by okashira » Feb 03 2016 9:42pm

Updated again, On the model S cell... went back to the original cell after trying 4 other cells. Strange beast.
Image

Allex was kind enough to send me four NCR18650GA's... from two different sources to boot. I will start them soon. I will also add more Model S cells.
Image
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