Tesla Powerwall $350 / kwh Retail

silentflight · May 1, 2015

Elon Musk introduced the Tesla Powerwall last night- a battery bank meant to store solar power for use at night, or in blackouts or to time shift cheap night power from the utilities for use in the daytime. The 10 kWh version will sell for $3500 and will begin shipping in limited numbers in the next few months. Supply should jump considerably when the gigafactory comes online in 1-2 years.

As I look at it from an ebiker's perspective, the most interesting thing is that Tesla is selling it's batteries for $350 per kWh retail. This is about $4.10 per cell - retail. At the moment I am assuming the Powerwall uses the same 18650s used in Tesla cars. No doubt the actual cost of the bare cells is a lot lower than the retail price and the production costs will fall substantially when the new factory comes online- good news for the price of batteries in the next few years. We would need to disassemble the bank to get the cells, but overall I think this is very good news for availability of quality 18650 battery packs at reasonable prices. It certainly points the way toward a mass market ebike with a quality mid-drive and 500 Wh battery for $2500 or less once economies of scale are reached.

speedmd · May 1, 2015

Is this california subsidized rebate pricing? Or is there any federal tax incentives factored in. They have a habit of doing that with the car prices. I am digging through the various reports and don't see any break outs so far.

bikeelectric · May 1, 2015

Here is the link
http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

From their specs for 7Kwh daily - If I am doing my math correctly 350 volts x 5 amps = 1750 watts draw ( more for surges) . 7Kw / 1750 = 4 hours at that rate . Weighs 220 pounds so that might be tough to fit in the frame triangle of a bike !

Also says it is liquid cooled.

okashira · May 1, 2015

silentflight said:
Elon Musk introduced the Tesla Powerwall last night- a battery bank meant to store solar power for use at night, or in blackouts or to time shift cheap night power from the utilities for use in the daytime. The 10 kWh version will sell for $3500 and will begin shipping in limited numbers in the next few months. Supply should jump considerably when the gigafactory comes online in 1-2 years.

As I look at it from an ebiker's perspective, the most interesting thing is that Tesla is selling it's batteries for $350 per kWh retail. This is about $4.10 per cell - retail. At the moment I am assuming the Powerwall uses the same 18650s used in Tesla cars. No doubt the actual cost of the bare cells is a lot lower than the retail price and the production costs will fall substantially when the new factory comes online- good news for the price of batteries in the next few years. We would need to disassemble the bank to get the cells, but overall I think this is very good news for availability of quality 18650 battery packs at reasonable prices. It certainly points the way toward a mass market ebike with a quality mid-drive and 500 Wh battery for $2500 or less once economies of scale are reached.

You do realize I've been selling the exact same cells, like new, for less then $4.10 a cell for a while now?

Yeah, they do use Model S cells. I am sure they don't plan to sell many of them at this time. This is a product in preparation for Gigafactory cells.

The system doesn't even include an invert-er. We will be able to offer a 20kWh system, inverter with solar MPPT and grid tie included for about $9000, possibly less if we can find another invert-er supplier.
It won't be quite as pretty as Tesla's giant wall wart though ..

silentflight · May 1, 2015

speedmd said:
Is this california subsidized rebate pricing? Or is there any federal tax incentives factored in. They have a habit of doing that with the car prices. I am digging through the various reports and don't see any break outs so far.

Good point- though if rebates are involved, someone somewhere could still buy one with the rebates at this price out of pocket. Please post if you discover more details regarding the $3500 / 10 kWh price.

bikeelectric said:
Weighs 220 pounds so that might be tough to fit in the frame triangle of a bike !
Also says it is liquid cooled.

So is a Model S pack, but Okashira is doing a great job of making ebike packs from an 80 kWh liquid-cooled pack. Thanks for noting the liquid cooling, it shows how much engineering and manufacturing cost went into this on top of the cell cost, so of course the actual price for each cell is below $4.

okashira said:
You do realize I've been selling the exact same cells, like new, for less then $4.10 a cell for a while now?

Hi Okashira! Of course I realize that, and I'm very glad that you are providing these cells at the best price I know of at this time. It is worth noting that while I know your cells perform very well and I'm thinking of buying some myself, your cells are a few years old and recovered from a defunct Model S, so one might expect they would cost a fair bit less than a brand new cell sold directly by Tesla at full retail price. I was thinking perhaps in the future you might be the one who would negotiate a good deal on a few of these and break them down into ebike friendly sizes.

okashira · May 1, 2015

silentflight said:
speedmd said:

Is this california subsidized rebate pricing? Or is there any federal tax incentives factored in. They have a habit of doing that with the car prices. I am digging through the various reports and don't see any break outs so far.

Click to expand...

Good point- though if rebates are involved, someone somewhere could still buy one with the rebates at this price out of pocket. Please post if you discover more details regarding the $3500 / 10 kWh price.

bikeelectric said:

Weighs 220 pounds so that might be tough to fit in the frame triangle of a bike !
Also says it is liquid cooled.

Click to expand...

So is a Model S pack, but Okashira is doing a great job of making ebike packs from an 80 kWh liquid-cooled pack. Thanks for noting the liquid cooling, it shows how much engineering and manufacturing cost went into this on top of the cell cost, so of course the actual price for each cell is below $4.

okashira said:

You do realize I've been selling the exact same cells, like new, for less then $4.10 a cell for a while now?

Click to expand...

Hi Okashira! Of course I realize that, and I'm very glad that you are providing these cells at the best price I know of at this time. It is worth noting that while I know your cells perform very well and I'm thinking of buying some myself, your cells are a few years old and recovered from a defunct Model S, so one might expect they would cost a fair bit less than a brand new cell sold directly by Tesla at full retail price. I was thinking perhaps in the future you might be the one who would negotiate a good deal on a few of these and break them down into ebike friendly sizes.

Highly unlikely. I can guarantee you that under no circumstance will tesla sell the cells nor would they offer much of a discount for a bulk purchase of these units. To make it worth it, cells from one of these units would need to be sold for $6-$7 a cell and higher.
Our best best is still wrecked vehicles... Model S and Model 3 for gfactory cells. The cells are in no way inferior because they were uses in a car for a few 1000 miles. They are barely broken in.

bikeelectric · May 1, 2015

okashira said:
You do realize I've been selling the exact same cells, like new, for less then $4.10 a cell for a while now?
Yeah, they do use Model S cells. I am sure they don't plan to sell many of them at this time. This is a product in preparation for Gigafactory cells.

The system doesn't even include an invert-er. We will be able to offer a 20kWh system, inverter with solar MPPT and grid tie included for about $9000, possibly less if we can find another invert-er supplier.
It won't be quite as pretty as Tesla's giant wall wart though ..

Where in the system is the inverter used ? AC to DC for charging ?

okashira · May 1, 2015

bikeelectric said:
okashira said:

You do realize I've been selling the exact same cells, like new, for less then $4.10 a cell for a while now?
Yeah, they do use Model S cells. I am sure they don't plan to sell many of them at this time. This is a product in preparation for Gigafactory cells.

The system doesn't even include an invert-er. We will be able to offer a 20kWh system, inverter with solar MPPT and grid tie included for about $9000, possibly less if we can find another invert-er supplier.
It won't be quite as pretty as Tesla's giant wall wart though ..

Click to expand...

Where in the system is the inverter used ? AC to DC for charging ?

Both ways. Grid to DC for charging. Solar to batteries for charging and DC to ac for powering home, etc

speedmd · May 1, 2015

To make ac to run the standard frig and the like. Most stuff can be made/ purchased to run on dc.

Looking forward to wiring my old shack with dedicated DC outlets /lines to get rid of all of those dam 5 and 12V transformers plugged in all over the place. May do some dedicated led lighting circuits while I am at it.

velias · May 1, 2015

So if my house was wired to the grid and I had solar panels, why would I need this versus selling the excess energy back to the power company?
other than as a UPS for the house in case of a rare blackout.
makes no sense unless your off the grid...

okashira · May 1, 2015

velias said:
So if my house was wired to the grid and I had solar panels, why would I need this versus selling the excess energy back to the power company?
other than as a UPS for the house in case of a rare blackout.
makes no sense unless your off the grid...

well, some people in places like cali have crazy rates like .4 per kwh during peak and free at night. they can play arbitrage.
Otherwise, it is kind of silly. Yeah, good for a UPS. Maybe better then a generator?

arkmundi · May 1, 2015

Good ol' lead-acid batteries of the gel-type are the standard for off-grid solar, the deep-cycle kind. Its a well developed market. Don't know why anyone would want to use lithium-ion cells for this application. For instance, I can get the Universal Ub24Gel, 12V,74Ah (20Hr) Sealed Gel Cell from the altestore for $192.79. That translates to 888 watt-hours, or $0.22 per watt-hour, or $220 / kwh. Size & weight are not a constraint. And they last a very long time.

r3volved · May 1, 2015

I would say that any excess contribution back into the grid, while maintaining storage capacity is well worth it. Even though you don't need the excess, it can really help the load on everyone else.

speedmd · May 1, 2015

velias said:
So if my house was wired to the grid and I had solar panels, why would I need this versus selling the excess energy back to the power company?
other than as a UPS for the house in case of a rare blackout.
makes no sense unless your off the grid...

They do not have to buy it back if not forced to and soon they may not be required to pay you what it's worth. For small commercial producers in our area, they are not required to pay a fair rate. You basically give it to them ($.01-.02/kwh) if you can not find a few folks you can cartwheel it to. You are also not allowed to install more than 20% more cell production capacity than what your annual usage is and grid tie. If you want to convert more of your energy needs (Add a EV or two, convert domestic heating systems, convert the mower or tractor) to clean electric power, storage is the only real way to do it other than running short of demand or do it separate of the grid and the federal/state incentives.

bikeelectric · May 1, 2015

arkmundi said:
Good ol' lead-acid batteries of the gel-type are the standard for off-grid solar, the deep-cycle kind. Its a well developed market. Don't know why anyone would want to use lithium-ion cells for this application. For instance, I can get the Universal Ub24Gel, 12V,74Ah (20Hr) Sealed Gel Cell from the altestore for $192.79. That translates to 888 watt-hours, or $0.22 per watt-hour. Size & weight are not a constraint. And they last a very long time.

Better off with flooded lead acid - they cost less and have better performance and you can check each cell with a hydrometer or refractometer to ensure that they are all equalized properly and balanced.

okashira · May 1, 2015

bikeelectric said:
arkmundi said:

Good ol' lead-acid batteries of the gel-type are the standard for off-grid solar, the deep-cycle kind. Its a well developed market. Don't know why anyone would want to use lithium-ion cells for this application. For instance, I can get the Universal Ub24Gel, 12V,74Ah (20Hr) Sealed Gel Cell from the altestore for $192.79. That translates to 888 watt-hours, or $0.22 per watt-hour. Size & weight are not a constraint. And they last a very long time.

Click to expand...

Better off with flooded lead acid - they cost less and have better performance and you can check each cell with a hydrometer or refractometer to ensure that they are all equalized properly and balanced.

Yes flooded is a better choice then gel. But if you actually do ALL of the math, you will likely find that quality NCA chemistry lithium ion will be cheaper.

parabellum · May 1, 2015

okashira said:
silentflight said:

The system doesn't even include an invert-er. We will be able to offer a 20kWh system, inverter with solar MPPT and grid tie included for about $9000, possibly less if we can find another invert-er supplier.
It won't be quite as pretty as Tesla's giant wall wart though ..

Click to expand...

Any idea why does this thing weights so much, if there is no inverter?

dnmun · May 1, 2015

lead is dead.

these will become ubiquitous where there are regular grid snaps that would rest all the electronic devices powered off the grid so these units will provide the support for the few seconds to a minute that the generators take to spin up to provide backup.

they can provide the current that lead cannot for that few seconds to minutes that it would take to stabilize the power at the business where they are used for backup.

now that so much is hanging on the web constantly these will sell like hotcakes and with the recent initiative that governor brown announced to reduce emissions by 40% they will be essential.

DVDRW · May 1, 2015

Lion cells and 10 year warranty, how?
New chemistry?

riba2233 · May 2, 2015

DVDRW said:
Lion cells and 10 year warranty, how?
New chemistry?

Well it was new 8 years ago, it's better to call it latest? Well, tesla uses this chemistry in Tesla S since the first day, it's NCA chemistry.

dogman dan · May 2, 2015

So how long would a power wall last, if it's in my climate? 3-4 years? I'm assuming you mount it outside, or do you?

It is nice that it's small, unlike a big lead acid bank. But I see this as more of a fashion accessory for the model S, than a real replacement battery bank for the cash strapped off grid folks. Could be worth having if daytime brown outs become common again or daytime rates get bad enough, and you lack the space for a lead storage bank. But a $350 generator can keep your freezer cold if it only happens once in a blue moon.

I'm slightly confused as to how you do grid tie with it. Generally solar is either grid tie or not. So I don't know how you grid tie your power bank. You can't have solar switched on, if the grid goes down. No doubt some kind of switch exists, or will soon. I just haven't seen it.

riba2233 · May 2, 2015

dogman dan said:
So how long would a power wall last, if it's in my climate? 3-4 years? I'm assuming you mount it outside, or do you?

That's the thing, unlike NMC and lifepo4 that die easily on elevated temperature, NCA is much more resilient.

arkmundi · May 2, 2015

If you've got a solar-powered gigawatt factory that is running 24/7, then having a substantial battery makes a lot of sense. And since you're in the business of selling product, might as well sell it to consumers. As a matter of fact, why not have a factory line that puts those units into service. Comes off the end-of-the-line, hook-it up for solar charging, test for QA, keep it hooked for a while. Its now doing duty for the factory. Sell it to a consumer. Repeat ad-infinitum. For the factory, the battery bank will always be new, always state-of-the-art, always at its peak voltage.

Arlo1 · May 2, 2015

Dogman dan. I think they mentioned 10yr warranty. I think this power wall and grid storage thing is great. This is a huge piece to the puzzle. But also will help people accept the electric car thing its amazing how many can't wrap their head around charging at home and how little electricity they need day to day which means how easy it would be just to be charging off of a 110 outlet which means they need no mods to their house.

Punx0r · May 2, 2015

I read the $3500 price was for installers, not retail.

Tesla Powerwall $350 / kwh Retail

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