0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
alexis57   100 W

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by alexis57 » May 07 2015 10:26am

cycborg wrote:
alexis57 wrote:doesn't provide any current anymore when the voltage battery reached the power supply voltage
OK, suppose you're an electronics hobbyist and you dial this supply down to 5 V to power a circuit on your breadboard. Do you think this supply would refuse to provide any power unless your circuit was pulling current at the current limit?
What ? your circuit is passive, a battery is active...
It's basic electricity knowledge... I don't understand what you tried to explain me... But if you use a power supply like the one for your computer, which you cannot choose the current, then yes, the battery will be charge with the maximum current. If no protection inside the power supply, it can fried.
A charger (or smart charger, in dnmun's parlance) will do this automatically. A power supply will do it through the intervention of an attentive operator.
Yes, it does automatically... that's why we call it "a charger" and not a "simple power supply".
The exact term will be : "charger" = "smart power supply", a smart-charger doesn't exist since it is... by the definition of a charger.

A power supply is silly, he just adjusts what you want. You want a current of 1A for the current source behavior? it'll provide 1A, you want 5V? it'll provide 5V.

Actually, I don't care, you can use it, but don't tell it works for getting full charge and don't tell it's fitted for a Lithium battery.
Russell wrote:You CAN charge a Li-ion battery fully with a power supply but it's best to use one with a current limiting feature. Say you're charging a single cell, just set the power supply to 4.20V and the current limit to an appropriate value and go. The power supply will maintain a CC for a period of time, depends on battery state of charge and current limit, then the current will slowly decrease over time as the voltage increases. At 4.20V the current will be zero and the battery will be fully charged. This method is slower than a dedicated Li-ion charger but it still works just fine, that's one of the nice things about Li-ion batteries.
Could you take a video with this way ? I really want to look at this.
If the current is decreasing when the voltage is increasing, your power supply is REALLY BAD.
Since it should work in "current source" and if it provides another current than the one you chose... You just proved that it's not possible with a power supply...

The only thing possible is when the battery reachs maybe 4.1x V, the power supply goes into "voltage source" and then the current will decrease but just because of the internal resistance (differential voltage and internal resistance..)
As I said, this way of charge is not for a fully charge...
From your eyes it's maybe a CV shape but it's not.

AGAIN : if you charge with a power supply, you can charge only with the CC shape. You couldn't fully charge since you couldn't use the CV shape. (this one requires a complicated circuit) The cut-off for a small current at the end of the charge is only for CV shape. Then it cannot exist with a simple power supply.

A Lithium charger is not really more expensive and it's faster for getting a full charge. Why trying to find a really small cheaper way for a worser result ?

Thank you =)
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Russell   10 MW

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by Russell » May 07 2015 10:36am

alexis57 wrote:
Could you take a video with this way ? I really want to look at this.
If the current is decreasing when the voltage is increasing, your power supply is REALLY BAD.
No I can't take a video.

And NO this is EXACTLY what should happen when using a power supply to charge a battery. You set the desired voltage then as the battery charges and the battery voltage goes up the power supply output current goes down until it is ZERO at the voltage set point. Now if you set the power supply to a voltage that's too high for the battery then yes the current will stay high and you'll destroy the battery. A dedicated Li-ion charger actually does the same thing once it reaches the CV phase. In the "constant voltage" phase you won't actually see a constant voltage if you are monitoring the charger/battery voltage while it's charging, instead you will see an increasing voltage and decreasing current. When the charger reaches its full voltage the current will have reached close to zero. When a charger is in its CV phase it's acting just like a power supply that was set to a specific charge voltage.

As I said the best way to learn about how the charger works is to insert a wattmeter inline and watch the output!

-R
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cycborg   1 kW

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cycborg » May 07 2015 10:57am

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here based on the failure to account for internal resistance of the battery. Think of the battery as an "intrinsic" voltage source with voltage dependent on state of charge, in series with a resistor. The voltage you see at the terminals of the battery is the "intrinsic" voltage plus or minus the voltage drop across the resistor.

OK. Now say the "intrinsic" voltage (call it Vin) at full SOC is 4.2 V. Say we're at a lower SOC such that this voltage is 3.5 V. With nothing connected, this is what you will measure at the terminals with a multimeter.

Now connect a CC source to charge the battery. Vin doesn't change, but the terminal voltage (Vbatt) instantaneously jumps by IR. This resistor drop remains constant as long as the supply current is constant.

When the supply gets to the 4.2 V setpoint, it transitions to CV mode. But remember, the supply is measuring the terminal voltage Vbatt, not Vin. So Vin is still less than 4.2 V (by IR) and the charge is incomplete.

The supply will hold the output at 4.2 V and will supply current at (4.2-Vin)/R. Since Vin continues to increase along with SOC, 4.2-Vin decreases over time, as does the current. At some point, you would want to cut off the current altogether since the tiny gains in SOC would be outweighed by the risk of damaging the battery.

Draw yourself a schematic with two voltage sources and a resistor between, and think about the distinction between intrinsic and terminal voltage, and this will become clearer.

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Russell   10 MW

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by Russell » May 07 2015 11:00am

Back to the original topic.

The power supply looks nice...and if you want a wide range adjustable power supply it's handy to have, but if you just want to charge your battery I'd just buy another charger. The ones I bought from BMSbattery are a bit loud but they are internally adjustable for voltage, current and EOC setpoint. I did replace a ridiculously loud fan on my Tenergy charger to quiet it down. It had a larger fan that was easily replaced with a slower fan without compromising cooling. You could also slow the fan down to decrease the noise though I would probably then lower the current. Or you can simply find a fanless charger though these are often limited to around 2A.

If you really want a super versatile charger then splurge on the Cycle Satiator from GRIN.

-R
Jeep Comanche Trekking Bike w/YOUE geared motor, 42 lbs + 15 lb rear trunk bag w/12S 16Ah LiPo battery, tools, etc., 21A controller, 700 x 40C tires. 27 MPH.


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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by wineboyrider » May 07 2015 11:11am

CAN YOU USE THIS power supply in SERIES for higher voltages? Or does it have an isolated ground? If it does you could use this with a meanwell to step up this bad boy to even higher voltage and watt power levels.... 8)
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cycborg » May 07 2015 11:23am

wineboyrider wrote:CAN YOU USE THIS power supply in SERIES for higher voltages? Or does it have an isolated ground? If it does you could use this with a meanwell to step up this bad boy to even higher voltage and watt power levels.... 8)
Well, it's likely, but no one has one yet and the specs that spinningmagnets posted don't say anything about isolation. How about you hook one up and let us know! :wink:

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cwah » May 07 2015 12:51pm

To date my power supply has...
- always been reliable
- is noiseless
- charge the battery to the correct voltage and amp. I have a watt meter integrated to my bike so I can see it reached max voltage
- i've been using it daily for over 6 months and no problem at all
- it''s one of the most compact and versatile power supply around.. only the satiator can compete... for 5 times the price. Or maybe meanwell but it's like 3 times the price

So why the hell would I get a normal charger? I started with the one's with bmsbattery and they usually break within few months for no reason. They are not easily adjustable and they need customisation to make it less loud.

I actually still have 4 spare bmsbattery charger at home and I am planning to sell them. Please explain for what reason I should keep them or even use them??? Safety would be the only potential reason but I don't think normal charger are safer anyway
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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cycborg » May 07 2015 1:06pm

cwah, maybe my question got lost in the noise, but I'm wondering which model you're currently using, and whether you used the same vendor you linked to in the OP. How was your experience with the vendor?

Thanks.

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Russell   10 MW

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by Russell » May 07 2015 1:32pm

cwah wrote:To date my power supply has...
- always been reliable
- is noiseless
- charge the battery to the correct voltage and amp. I have a watt meter integrated to my bike so I can see it reached max voltage
- i've been using it daily for over 6 months and no problem at all
- it''s one of the most compact and versatile power supply around.. only the satiator can compete... for 5 times the price. Or maybe meanwell but it's like 3 times the price

So why the hell would I get a normal charger? I started with the one's with bmsbattery and they usually break within few months for no reason. They are not easily adjustable and they need customisation to make it less loud.

I actually still have 4 spare bmsbattery charger at home and I am planning to sell them. Please explain for what reason I should keep them or even use them??? Safety would be the only potential reason but I don't think normal charger are safer anyway
As long as you know what you're doing using the power supply as a charger there's no reason to not continue to use it. You were however proposing to spend $200 on a variable supply just to carry along with you to charge your battery which to me seems like overkill.

I have 2 chargers from BMSbattery and they have worked great for years. The fan on the first unit I bought 5 years ago is quieter than the newer model but it's not a big deal. I like them because they are easily adjustable once you know what the 3 pots do. I also have a couple of cheap (about $25) fanless chargers and these are the ones I'd carry along on the bike.

Do what you want, but remember you did post and ask for opinions so don't be so pissed when others have a different opinion :roll:

-R
Jeep Comanche Trekking Bike w/YOUE geared motor, 42 lbs + 15 lb rear trunk bag w/12S 16Ah LiPo battery, tools, etc., 21A controller, 700 x 40C tires. 27 MPH.


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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cwah » May 07 2015 1:51pm

Cyborg no I didn't buy from this seller and I purchased 2 other power supply from the same brand. I started with the 150W model and after few months I liked it so much I decided to get the 300W model.... and now because I like them both I'm thinking of the 1000W model lol!

The key trade of is that the 1000W model isn't fanless anymore so I'm still considering
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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by dnmun » May 07 2015 1:52pm

really, why do people ask and then get pissed when you tell them the truth. don't ask if you don't wanna learn something new.

BMS battery does not manufacture battery chargers, they just sell them.

i think that the EMC-1000 that they sell is the best charger deal for the money and always recommend them.

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cwah » May 07 2015 1:57pm

@ Russel

I have a different experience with their charger I don't know why... they all blew at some stage, even without modification...

But, if we consider cost wise, getting the charger (at 900w or 1200W) from bmsbattery is likely to have the same price as the one from the seller I've shown. Bmsbattery is "cheaper" but shipping cost is so high that it end up at the same price.

I had the 900W model from bmsbattery before, it's big and not easily adjustable.

So, if the question is...

For the same price would I choose a charger from bmsbattery or this power supply? Then I'd say this power supply because all the other model I had to date have been excellent.
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by Cephalotus » May 07 2015 1:57pm

cwah wrote: Definitely cheaper than meanwell, more adjustable range, as compact and similar weight... 3kg for 1000W!
Thank you for the link. One advantage of meanwell is, that they are said to be VERY realiable and even work at 60°C oder in rain and they can operate continuously for years...

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cwah » May 07 2015 2:00pm

And to all, i'm not angry, i'm trying to make you understand why the new power supply is better for my usage than a conventional charger:
- easy to adjust with a knob
- reliable to date
- silent to date but don't know why this model. Seller is telling me it's as loud as a normal computer but I don't know if I should believe him
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cal3thousand » May 07 2015 2:08pm

Cephalotus wrote:
cwah wrote: Definitely cheaper than meanwell, more adjustable range, as compact and similar weight... 3kg for 1000W!
Thank you for the link. One advantage of meanwell is, that they are said to be VERY realiable and even work at 60°C oder in rain and they can operate continuously for years...
I personally had a CLG series unit go bad on me, but it was well within the 5 year warranty. My reputable supplier gave me a warranty credit and I used that on an HLG unit. That's another benefit of Mean Wells and Satiators Vs EMCs and ebay Power Supplies. If my Satiator goes bad, I have no doubts that Justin will make it right. :wink:
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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by liveforphysics » May 07 2015 2:10pm

It looks like a bargain to me!

Cheap enough to not matter much if it fails anyways.
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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cycborg » May 07 2015 2:21pm

To me, the main advantage of using a power supply like this rather than a charger is that you can also use it as... a power supply. Use it to test motors, controllers, lighting systems, etc.; charge anything from a single cell to a 5 kWh pack; as long as it's reliable, the versatility is great to have available.

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by petemarconi » May 07 2015 4:14pm

As another owner of one of these power supplies I would just like to add my own observations.

I have used the 60v 5amp version for six months charging a variety of lithium batteries from single cell up to 63volts (max voltage the power supply will provide). It has been 100% reliable so far. As far as I can tell it does cccv. It has two led's on the front which change when it goes into cv mode. As you watch the voltage rise to whatever level you have preset the led will then change from cc to cv and the current will then gradually reduce to zero (assuming the battery is in good condition). I can't tell you what shape the charging curve is in the cv mode - all I can say is it works fine for me and gives me 100% charge at whatever voltage level I set it at, so very useful if you want to charge at a lower voltage for longevity.
The only disadvantage I have found is that at low voltage levels (cell voltage of say 4.20v) the voltage steps are too coarse for accuracy, going up in steps of 0.1v at this level, but not really a problem unless you need accuracy at cell level charging.
I've used a variety of other chargers/power supplies in the past, meanwells, kingpans, bms battery etc but this gopher 60v5a is the one I use exclusively now.

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cwah » May 07 2015 4:21pm

@Russel and dnum, just check the feedback from other owner. This power supply to date is the best we've found for its price band.

I'm not unhappy of your feedback, but I'm showing you why this power supply is better than you think it is
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Russell   10 MW

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by Russell » May 07 2015 4:57pm

I think you are being enticed by a subliminal message...
ps.jpg
ps.jpg (38.71 KiB) Viewed 1516 times
But seriously it does look like a good buy. If you need a quiet charger with high current output for quick opportunity charging and have uses for a variable power supply (and who doesn't) then go for it. For charging at work when you're there for around 8 hours anyway a small cheap fanless charger imo would be all you need.

-R
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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by Gregory » May 07 2015 6:55pm

petemarconi wrote: The only disadvantage I have found is that at low voltage levels (cell voltage of say 4.20v) the voltage steps are too coarse for accuracy, going up in steps of 0.1v at this level, but not really a problem unless you need accuracy at cell level charging.
The 1000W model seems to have fine/course adjustment on the knob so that's a bonus.

And I agree with everyone saying that having a variable CCCV bench supply is VERY handy.


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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by cycborg » May 08 2015 8:25am

wineboyrider wrote:CAN YOU USE THIS power supply in SERIES for higher voltages? Or does it have an isolated ground? If it does you could use this with a meanwell to step up this bad boy to even higher voltage and watt power levels.... 8)
This vendor includes some pages from the operation manual, including guidelines for series and parallel connections.

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by wineboyrider » May 08 2015 9:04am

Thanks cyborg . 8)
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by spinningmagnets » May 08 2015 9:37am

This power supply-CC/CV charger looks interesting...

If I was to put a power timer on the outlet that this is plugged into, and if a full charge usually takes a couple hours...if I set the timer to three hours and it then cuts power (without me turning the unit off by the ON/OFF switch)...will it screw anything up? I guess as far as the units perspective, it would be the same as if there was a power outage during a storm?

Here's a silly newbie question...if the power to the unit is off, and the unit is still hooked up to the battery, will the battery slowly drain down?

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Re: 0-60v 1000W power supply - forget meanwell

Post by dnmun » May 08 2015 10:52am

yes, unless there is a diode on the output of the charger or power supply. there is always a drain down resistor across the output caps.

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