AllCell vs Ping

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Gloop   10 W

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AllCell vs Ping

Post by Gloop » Jul 23 2015 2:13am

Who would you trust more on a bicycle tour?

Three Ping 60V10Ah with 7.5amp charger
or Two AllCell 48V20Ah with 7 amp charger

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by wesnewell » Jul 23 2015 4:37am

I wouldn't trust either of them. I'd use rc lipo. If there's a problem, it can be found almost anywhere.
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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by dogman dan » Jul 23 2015 5:59am

Both equally reliable. And btw, I have used ping, allcell packs, and RC lipo. RC is great for when you want a light but powerful 5 ah pack.

Allcell wins easily, when you compare the size and the weight with Lifepo4. But a lot more money than ping.

Both much safer than RC stuff to bring inside somebodies house, a motel, or whatever to charge or stay the night.

BEST choice would be go to EM3ev, for the best new cells in your packs. Allcell very pricy, but I have to say the heat absorbing construction of the pack is nice. Nicer though, would be cells that don't get so warm discharging from EM3ev.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by 999zip999 » Jul 23 2015 10:06am

When you buy a battery you are after the best battery cell. Em3ev gives you a choice of cell to match your controller, weight, hills, battery size. Ez walk away charging so you can get same sleep without one eye open.
So what controller and motor setup ect.
Bike tour what does that mean to you ?

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by Gloop » Jul 23 2015 3:59pm

So Em3Ev makes the best most reliable packs?

How easy is it to open up a pack and replace a dead cell or BMS in EM3Ev? because i have opened up a Ping and soldered in new pouch/BMS before and it was not too difficult.

Can EM3Ev custom build packs?

I am using a Crystallte 600-1200 Watt motor with 25Amp Grin controller...will be upgrading to 40 amp soon.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by dogman dan » Jul 23 2015 5:27pm

Easier to repair a pouch cell pack like ping, than any 18650 cell pack.

But good cells can mean you don't have to. Em3ev has consistently sought out the best cells currently available. Yes, he does build custom packs. so if you need a weird size, he's yer guy.

FWIW, I just took delivery on an incredibly inexpensive 18650 cell pack. 48v 20 ah for $400 bucks. My next tour will be with that battery, and a 48v 13 ah allcell.

But if I'd had the money, I'd have been at EM3ev.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by neptronix » Jul 23 2015 6:40pm

All cell is going to be much lighter and more compact than the ping, but it's gonna cost a lot more.

Lunacycle currently sells possibly the most dense consumer battery here:
http://lunacycle.com/48v-samsung-inr186 ... igh-power/

The ping battery lasts the longest out of all of them, in terms of cycles though.
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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by 999zip999 » Jul 23 2015 7:49pm

A Ping 48v 20 ah works best at 27amps. For long life. A 40 amp controller ?, well he does have a new cell I think ? Yea V5 and a 60amp bms and 15a charge high rate bms. Maybe $925.00usd. Big heavy. Long lasting ? On paper.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by Gloop » Jul 23 2015 10:07pm

Three 60V10Ah pings costs the same as two 48V20Ah Allcell.

I am liking the look of Em3Ev. I can get two 50V22Ah with 9Ah charger for the same price as Ping or AllCell. Only problem with EM3Ev is it only pulls 35amps whereas allCell and Ping do 40 amps.

The costs difference are very minor between the three.
What matters to me most are cell reliability and warranty/repairs if it breaks.
I know how to repair a Ping but I don't know how to repair Em3Ev or Allcell.
If a battery breaks on tour I wont be able to repair it till I come back.

I want to ride from Victoria to Lloydminster which is 1600 Km, and then back.
After that I want to cycle down to California which is 2000 km.

I think I like the Pings best because of easy repairs and 60V = more speed
Plus with three batteries if one fails i still have two left.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by neptronix » Jul 23 2015 10:37pm

If you want repair ability, there is nothing easier to patch up on the road than RC Lipo ( turnigy multistars are the lightest choice ). Visit your local hobby shop, suck up their inflated price, charge the new packs up to the same voltage the others are at, and plug that business back into parallel.

For anything with 18650's, you're going to need a tab welder to fix it.

I don't see how pings could be fixed so easily on the road. Maybe order some spare cells, bring a soldering iron, the appropriate flux and solder ( hopefully you know what type it is for those pouch cells! ) etc...

For 18650's, luna cycles sells the most dense and light packs around and their prices are amazing. I do not know how well they are constructed, but i assume that it's good.

Headways would probably be the easiest to fix on the road, but they are 3 times heavier and larger than modern RC Lipo ( multistars ) or 18650's ( 3000-3500mah formulations from lg, panasonic, samsung, etc )
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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by 999zip999 » Jul 23 2015 10:40pm

Ping v5 what's that couldn't find an update from ping in his evolution of Ping dynasty page. But 60v10ah can take a high discharge bms. You would have three of those to carry. But can charge all three at once at 7amp. on 10ah pack.

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Gloop   10 W

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by Gloop » Jul 24 2015 1:22am

That's a very good idea. Taking a soldering iron and extra pouch/BMS on the tour with me. I have emailed Ping to see how much extra pouch/BMS cost.
I think Ping is the only pack i would be able to fix on the road, and i already have experience doing it before. All it takes is duct tape, soldering iron and a few hours.
So I think Ping might be best. Thanks for all the good advice people.

Oh and what type of solder should i be using?

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by dogman dan » Jul 24 2015 6:13am

For repairability, Ping, Hobby king, some kind of pouch cells. Or, like your plan, 3 10 ah packs means a dead one can simply be left unused if it develops a problem, and you get home on 20 ah.

For max reliability, you need one satiator. So you could turn a misbehaving 16 cell ping into a 15 cell, and keep charging easily.
On the other hand, if you have two or more of the kingpan chargers, you could tweak one down to keep charging the 15 cell.

Another very very good thing to have out on the road, a controller that's tied to a CA. Then if shit happens, you can put your bike in limp home at 10 amps mode.

For where I am, 70 miles hops between towns, I'd love to just have three 15 ah packs from cellman or whoever. Or even 1 20 ah, and two 15 ah. 2500 wh would allow a fairly quick ride of 80-100 miles. Then plan on charging only at motels or peoples houses.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by LockH » Jul 24 2015 9:05am

wesnewell wrote:I wouldn't trust either of them. I'd use rc lipo. If there's a problem, it can be found almost anywhere.
Oh. Good one. :wink: Listen to most all these guyz. AFAIK (re "rentals" especially. "bike tour"?) many problems due to "operator error".
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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by 999zip999 » Jul 24 2015 12:29pm

It's human to error. On a girlfriend or friend you loan your bike to. Not the long trip someone moving your bike with the charger plugged in or a bms draining one to zero or bouncing your charger around. You know. At that you taking a 80 watt and 15 watt soldering iron ? How about a pic of the tour ebike ?
Last edited by 999zip999 on Jul 24 2015 5:36pm, edited 2 times in total.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by dogman dan » Jul 24 2015 12:57pm

Bet you wouldn't need to repair EM3ev packs. Two 48v 20 ah is more capacity too, than 3 10 ah pings.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by Gloop » Jul 24 2015 9:50pm

I want to do 3 tours. Lloydminster, 3500km, California, 4000km, and New York, 10000km. That's 17500km over 4 batteries. Think any brand of battery might have a failure over that distance. I contacted Ping and spare bms and pouch are only 200 canadian. I think I prefer home repair to shipping a battery back to China. I have done a lot of research and it seems that all batteries die. Oh and I will get a picture of my bike and trailer when I can, the trailer is at my parents. But in my avater you can see my old ebike and trailer.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by dnmun » Jul 24 2015 10:28pm

the pouches are all the same dimension. if you need 5Ah pouch the size is standard and they are all over the net. he can ship you pouches with your pack. i still think the sunthingguy is worth the money because it is so much cheaper and the pouches are pretty much identical in all of these lifepo4 pouches. also i now believe in the reality of surface shipping.

the thing about charging paralleled packs with the ping signalab is that you have to isolate the two packs at P- to prevent the overcharging of the pack that shuts off charging of itself for HVC but the current continues through the other BMS.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by amberwolf » Jul 25 2015 2:31am

Gloop wrote:Who would you trust more on a bicycle tour?
Dunno about the batteries themselves, but for at least one of teh chargers you might want the Cycle Satiator by Grin Tech ( http://ebikes.ca/Satiator ), as it's water resistant, vibration resistant, and configurable for just about any kind of battery you might end up using (or fixing/rebuilding/etc).

Only downsides are it's not cheap, and it doesn't yet do really high voltage (for ebikes) packs.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by neptronix » Jul 25 2015 2:36am

For long rides and long cycle life, nothing beats lifepo4 except some oddball 18650 cells, which are probably gonna be hard to find assembled into a commercial pack.

Lifepo4's heavy as sin though.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by dogman dan » Jul 25 2015 5:38am

30 ah of ping (1500wh) not that bad to carry though. I used to carry that easily on just a bike with panniers for one day rides. But for the same size and weight, you could have 2000 wh of something else.

I just obsess about having 80 mile range because when I tour, some routes you have to have it.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by LockH » Jul 25 2015 11:06am

Hehe. Pretty sure we're getting "AllCells" mixed up here. (Two "ll"s makes bikes etc, one "l" makes batteries.) :)

Butt yeah (sorry, only one "t" there), for many "warranty" and "reliability" are "frills" it seems these daze. My vote to build reliability into higher front-end purchase cost. :wink:

(And sorry about spelling "days" wrong here two.)
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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by johnrobholmes » Jul 25 2015 11:15am

I've had more problem cells show up in ping packs than from em3ev or allcell, counting both customer and personal packs. If you are getting a ping pack, I would suggest cycling it at least 10 times to check for runts. One pack from em3ev got a bad string of cells after 5 years and multiple low voltage (left it plugged in for weeks) abuses by the customer.


If I were to get a personal pack for a trip, em3ev or allcell would be my first choices. I have a 48v20ah allcell that has been wonderful and doesn't seem to have problems with the BMS discharging cells when left for extended periods.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by dnmun » Jul 25 2015 11:43am

it has nothing to do with budget. the allcell design is made to allow for thermal runaway to be blocked by the heat absorbing properties of the waxy goop they squeeze in between the cans. never proven, but that was the idea behind their design. not worth carrying all the extra weight and low C capacity especially for extra bucks.

i think you should just buy the most pouches you can for the money you have to spend so that means the low budget prices from sunthingguy for the same pouches that ping uses. his BMS is entirely functional and has the added feature of allowing the use of a switch on the BMS to turn off the battery by turning off the circuit current.

i build my own so buying them new to use as they come from the manufacturer is just alien. all pouch packs should be removed from their shrink wrap and put into compression with hard endplates to keep the pouches flat so they last longer. all packs, HK lipoly and the big ping and sunthing pouch packs too. shrink wrap eats up cycle life and increases the risk of fire by crimping the corners of the outer pouches so much that the electrodes are forced together over time.

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Re: AllCell vs Ping

Post by 999zip999 » Jul 25 2015 12:06pm

A lot of the Ping battery problems come from people running to high of amp controller like 40amps ect.

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