Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
vicens   100 W

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Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 12 2015 6:28pm

The first package of batteries lasted me eleven days. eight partial cycles.
The second battery pack lasted me fourteen days. fifteen partial cycles.

The charger and batteries are leaving here. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=73255

The first battery pack have not seen.

The second battery pack are all a bit swollen.
The burden does not end. The batteries heat.
The distance I can do is the same as before failure.

They are defective or of poor quality batteries?

I can do something to not spoil?

6-DZM-20 (20Ah / 2h) Chinese and 12v 18/20ah / 20h from other manufacturers.
What is the difference between the batteries?
Are they the same actual capacity?

I'm thinking of lithium. What capacity is equivalent to five batteries 6-dzm-20?

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by dogman dan » Oct 13 2015 5:36am

Did you discharge them 100%, or very close to that several times? That could do it. It took me more like 30 days, but mine just lost capacity, didn't actually swell up.

I certainly would not buy that particular brand of battery again. I'd suspect you got sent some defective, or at least very stale batteries. Shelf time can kill lead, so lead must be fresh.

vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 13 2015 9:08am

Batteries are the end of 2013. The second batteries are of a scooter exposure.

Batteries are new scooter. The scooter has less than three months.

Taking consumption 230V charger. In the normal course consumption it is 550wh. Lost removing the charger. It is half the capacity.

In another longer journey never ends discharging the battery.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by 4LivesPerGallon » Oct 13 2015 11:43am

My guess is that the charger is overcharging for the [remaining] capacity.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 13 2015 5:39pm

Lead likes slow charging low ampage.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by ecycler » Oct 14 2015 9:49am

999zip999 wrote:Lead likes slow charging low ampage.
...and slow discharge rate. How many amps is your scooter drawing from these babies?
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vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 16 2015 10:43am

The scooter has controller 30a.

I have to ride a lithium battery.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by bowlofsalad » Oct 16 2015 11:47am

What capacity is equivalent to five batteries 6-dzm-20?
Look for 60V20Ah packs. em3ev.com lunacycle.com You might ask one of these well reputable places to make you a pack.

http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/60 ... g-inr-25r/ This pack'd probably do ya.

You'll probably ask yourself, "Holy frocking hell dudemang, this cost is insane! Why!?!?" Performance and longevity. The number of cycles and the C rating of a pack such as this blows lead out of the water, leads dead baby, leads dead.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by ecycler » Oct 16 2015 9:39pm

Those lead batteries are junk. You need something better. Post some more info about the bike/motor/controller and your plans for riding it and you will get better advice for what your next battery should be. It does sound like a large Ping may be your best route.
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vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 16 2015 10:41pm

I asked that same thing in another forum.

I want a 60V battery
Li-ion 16S or 20s lifepo4
Minimum capacity 30Ah
measures battery 170x180x231. height. length. width.
Lifepo4 think is best. With more life cycles.
Change or modify the controller. Controller has 30A. Shall controller 45A
More amps for better tough climb.

The scooter is this.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/emgarage.php ... cleid=9183

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 17 2015 1:13am

When using have far down do you discharge battery. Do you run till cut off ?
Do you let cool before charging ?

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by 4LivesPerGallon » Oct 17 2015 2:11am

Here is the source of your problem:
"The charger does not end one day charging."

However, there are too many variables to diagnose this remotely, i.e.

? Is the battery pack, or one of the batteries not matched with the others?

? Was the pack charged too fast after a very deep drawdown? (Never discharge any 12V lead acid battery under 12V, despite what others tell you.)

? Is your charge rate too high for the remaining capacity? (You can't tell without an expensive battery analyzer.)

? Is the battery charger going "wild" intermittently, like the Zivan EV chargers?

vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 17 2015 3:13am

999zip999 wrote:When using have far down do you discharge battery. Do you run till cut off ?
Do you let cool before charging ?
Once depleted high load cut off. Beside the house.

The other times when the battery charge is half. or a third prior to cutting.

Do not let the battery cool before charging.

vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 17 2015 3:22am

4LivesPerGallon wrote:Here is the source of your problem:
"The charger does not end one day charging."

However, there are too many variables to diagnose this remotely, i.e.

? Is the battery pack, or one of the batteries not matched with the others?

? Was the pack charged too fast after a very deep drawdown? (Never discharge any 12V lead acid battery under 12V, despite what others tell you.)

? Is your charge rate too high for the remaining capacity? (You can't tell without an expensive battery analyzer.)

? Is the battery charger going "wild" intermittently, like the Zivan EV chargers?
1 are all equal batteries

2 and 3 the battery capacity is 20Ah. the charger is 3A. the load is to 0.15c. The battery manufacturer says that the load is 2.7A maximum.

4 Do not understand.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by dogman dan » Oct 17 2015 5:48am

I still think you got stale batteries. A lead battery, even sitting fully charged, still grows the sulphite crystals that eventually cause internal shorts, swelling, and death of the cells.

So if you got old stuff, as soon as you used them, the crystals would grow fast and swell the case of the battery.

Lead batteries are like bread, they must be fresh.

vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 19 2015 3:23am

The response of the manufacturer of the batteries

Re: Re: 在线留言邮件
Chilwee Battery (info@chaowei.biz) Agregar a contactos 4:34 Conservar este mensaje en la parte superior de la bandeja de entrada
Para:
info@chaowei.biz
Hi Vincent,

After checking the problems you have been encountered, we can basically assume that the batteries have been over-discharged for a long time, which is caused by the e-bike manufacturer had choosen too small batteries.

Normally when you are choosing batteries for your electric vehicle, you can simply calculate in the following way:

- Electri motor power: 1500W;
- Voltage: 60V;
- Expected speed: 45KM/h;
- Expected mileage: 60-70KM;

So the capacity of battery shall be at least: 1500W/60V * (70KM/45KM/h) = 40Ah - this is the minum required battery capacity if you are using 60V 1500W electric motor, actually for safety reason, you shall use around 50Ah battery instead.

But your e-bike manufacturer has chosen 60V 20Ah battery which can only be used for half of the expected time, and the battery has always been over-discharged.

If the lead acid battery is always over-discharged without proper recovering charge, the negative plate sulfuration will happen and will permenantly affect the battery. Once the permanent sulfuration is happened, the battery's internal resistance will increase, so when you are charging the battery, the battery may get heated and bulging.

So we suggest you to choose larger battery or reduce your electri motor power.

Thanks!

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by dogman dan » Oct 19 2015 6:06am

What they say is no lie, though it is the usual bit garbled in translation. Watts is not a measure of capacity.

Yes, to make lead last, discharge only 50% then recharge immediately. So if you have 20ah, stop when 10 ah is used. That's how to make lead batteries last.

Yes, it also helps a lot to lower the c rate. The rate of discharge. 1c for a 20 ah pack is 20 amps. The battery would last longer used at .5c than at 2c. But 2c, (40 amps for a 20 ah pack) should be possible for a good lead battery. This is what they meant by 1500w. It appears that your vehicle has a 25 amps controller. (1500w divided by 60v) That's just a hair over 1c for your pack. It's not too small a battery. But it still would last longer if it was bigger.

They did not mention freshness. Those crystals grow when the battery is on the shelf. I suspect more than a year of storage time for the cells you were sent.

You bike still could easily kill a 20 ah lead battery, but it should take 2-6 months. Not a few days or weeks.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 19 2015 12:00pm

After using lead batteries they should have time to cool down before charging.

vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 19 2015 2:14pm

dogman dan wrote:What they say is no lie, though it is the usual bit garbled in translation. Watts is not a measure of capacity.

Yes, to make lead last, discharge only 50% then recharge immediately. So if you have 20ah, stop when 10 ah is used. That's how to make lead batteries last.

Yes, it also helps a lot to lower the c rate. The rate of discharge. 1c for a 20 ah pack is 20 amps. The battery would last longer used at .5c than at 2c. But 2c, (40 amps for a 20 ah pack) should be possible for a good lead battery. This is what they meant by 1500w. It appears that your vehicle has a 25 amps controller. (1500w divided by 60v) That's just a hair over 1c for your pack. It's not too small a battery. But it still would last longer if it was bigger.

They did not mention freshness. Those crystals grow when the battery is on the shelf. I suspect more than a year of storage time for the cells you were sent.

You bike still could easily kill a 20 ah lead battery, but it should take 2-6 months. Not a few days or weeks.
The controller is 30A

A duration of 2.6 months seems very little. It should last at least 6 months.

The batteries are of 2013.

The manufacturer says it at the end. I recommend lowering the power. Or a larger batteries.

In the data sheet sets. look at the picture.

If the manufacturer says this, it is that outside these parameters the battery life will be small. It may be that other types of batteries work well to download 1C.
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vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 19 2015 2:19pm

999zip999 wrote:After using lead batteries they should have time to cool down before charging.
I waited 30 minutes before starting to charge the battery. to be cool.

I was told that is not necessary. It is best to charge the battery after use.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 19 2015 2:26pm

We have AAA for road service and they sell batteries with 2 yr. grantee if the batteries on the truck are not sold in 6 mos. they send them back to remelt. So as Dogman says it's to get them fresh or go li-ion. But ask here first for good battery and not ebay crap. There may be a guy in your country that can help or Europe.
Yes it is best to charge lead after use and to keep full, but don't charge when hot and do not charge so fast to get hot ( amps). Swelling equals heat...

vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 19 2015 5:25pm

I've been looking at the batteries.

Lithium is much better. You can build a battery with much more capacity in less space.

here in my country I can make the battery I need. someone in the forum.

I think we make a battery with 18650 cells is very easy. but I have no welding point.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by ecycler » Oct 19 2015 10:51pm

Lead sucks. Stop even trying. Learn how to make an 18650 like you are talking about or buy a large Ping battery. You will be happy you did.
Any grease is better than no grease.
The best exercises are the ones you enjoy doing.
I strongly prefer vehicles without doors.

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 20 2015 1:33am

Lead 20ah =11ah plus weight
Please don't solder on cells. Spot weld or make unsafe tester solder battery for barbeque storage.
Or buy a decent working battery rated for your needs.
Don't throw away money for a dream.

vicens   100 W

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Re: Problems with lead batteries. They swell quickly.

Post by vicens » Oct 20 2015 3:39am

Failure of the translation.
spot weld wanted to say.
I was thinking of something 60V 45Ah. or greater.

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