Raptor on Fire

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
sansander.ebike   100 W

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Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 17 2015 5:36pm

Never leave the battery unattended during charging.
Luckily no one was hurt.
The fun war too short only 200km

And the rest without words....
Last edited by sansander.ebike on Nov 17 2015 5:46pm, edited 2 times in total.

Voltron   10 MW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Voltron » Nov 17 2015 5:40pm

Thats a sad sight... but try to keep in mind of how lucky it was the whole building didn't go up or that anyone got hurt.

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 17 2015 5:52pm

Yes, there was a big Explosion early morning in mid-May this year.
The roof was raised by 2cm is realy crazy.

I'm glad no one were hurt.

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Ohbse » Nov 17 2015 6:04pm

What was the cause? Single cell overcharging? Short to the chassis?

What did you have around the pack inside the bike to protect it? What advice would you give to avoid the same situation occurring?

Glad nobody was hurt and damage is repairable, I am very curious as to the cause as 18650's are generally much safer/more robust than large format lipo pouches.

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by amberwolf » Nov 18 2015 5:55am

Speculation (worth what you paid for it ;)):


Without knowing more about the building of the pack itself, my guess based on what I've seen of various 18650 builds here and the Vpower pack I once had, is that there was insufficient insulation between the inter-cell connections for parallel cells and the cell can edges underneath them, and something (heat, vibration, pressure, etc) caused what insulation there was to be breached, causing a short across a cell (and thus the entire parallel group). That would then heat all those cells.

What happens after that depends on where the cells are
--if in the middle of the pack they'd heat up more cells around them, and the heat has nowhere else to go but into other cells

and how the charger and BMS reacts to the sudden voltage drop
--if the charger continues to pour current at a high rate into the pack, and the BMS doesnt' shut off charging when it detects the now-shorted cell group,

then as the other cells aroudn that group heat up, and current keeps pouring into them, too, they might also reach a point at which they start creating their own internal heat, which feeds into cells around them *and* back into the already-hot shorted cells.

Keep taht up and at some point something gets hot enough to ignite, and a fire started.


Whether or not any of the above actually occurred we'll probably never know, but it's one possible scenario of many.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by dogman dan » Nov 18 2015 6:25am

Thanks for reporting the fire. People call this place Endless Fear, but only by examining each fire can we learn how to avoid having our own.

It would appear that the 18650's were safer than RC pack lipo's, based on the fact the heat and or actual fire were more or less limited to the bikes frame. The fire could have spread, burning the whole house if the bike had been in a bad spot such as leaning on the back of a couch or a book case. So good for you parking it smart, avoiding obvious flammables close by. The room got smoked, and there was lots of heat, but no flashover.

But once again, we see the effect that can happen if a short or a runaway cell occurs in the pack. No real evidence of a short here this time, the fact it happened while charging suggests a different cause.

But even though a short is not proven this time, you do have to consider very carefully what will happen when the bike is ridden. Will the cells be able to move around, will insulating materials inside the pack chafe through? That's a very big heavy battery, not easy to restrain from small movements inside the battery box as you ride. If something chafes, then shorts, it only takes a small battery to make a lot of heat. Put a 9v battery and some coins in your pocket some time, you'll see!

Overpressure of the battery box itself could have been the big pop. Hard to tell from the pictures. Were any battery cans actually turned inside out?

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 18 2015 6:42am

My guess is, that happened in the battery pack in a cell short circuit.
the balancer has worked very well evry cell by 4,200V.
The battery I have already loaded 4-5 times. And the Charger cutoff 92,4V
evrything ok.
The battery was padded with foam rubber and really built very firmly.
In the beginning I also thought 18650 much secure than lipo, "NO"

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by dogman dan » Nov 18 2015 6:49am

It does seem like a runaway cell was the cause. But why it did that is the mystery.

Lots of cells in the pack, just one defective?

Still curious, did any of the cells actually rupture? Or blow their tops off?

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Ykick   100 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Ykick » Nov 18 2015 6:50am

Glad nobody was hurt or worse and sorry for your loss.

Just goes to show that ANY energy storage medium can suffer failure and it’s important to keep that in mind when parking, charging and/or storing our eBikes.
Talent must not be wasted.... Those who have talent must hug it, embrace it, nurture it and share it lest it be taken away from you as fast as it was loaned to you.

- Frank Sinatra

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by dogman dan » Nov 18 2015 6:51am

Might have been a short like Amberwolf described. This can happen in a pack that seems to move not at all. I'm assuming you ride the bike pretty fast, small bumps making a big jolt inside the box.

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 18 2015 6:57am

to this day I do not know exactly what was the cause...

Think of Mobile Phone, nobooks or electric toothbrush.

everything is running on battery can fail and cause a fire.

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circuit   100 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by circuit » Nov 18 2015 9:07am

Were these cells new?
What BMS did you use?
smart and Tiny BMS solution
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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by tomjasz » Nov 18 2015 12:03pm

Who configured the pack? I've seen some wiring jobs on ES Facebook recently that could have ned up just like this.

I suspect builder error and poor wiring. It would be interesting to ID the cells used.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 18 2015 12:31pm

circuit wrote:Were these cells new?
What BMS did you use?
New cell ICR-Samsung

The BMS installed inside

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 18 2015 12:35pm

tomjasz wrote:Who configured the pack? I've seen some wiring jobs on ES Facebook recently that could have ned up just like this.

I suspect builder error and poor wiring. It would be interesting to ID the cells used.

I can not say the manufacturer, sr.

is all speculation, good or bad does not matter more.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by tomjasz » Nov 18 2015 12:36pm

sansander.ebike wrote:
New cell ICR-Samsung

The BMS installed inside
Which version of the Samsung ICR?

Thanks!

It LOOKS like a sloppy build. If I paid good money for a pack and it came made with duck tape I'd be immediately suspicious.

I'm saddened by your tragedy, but I'd be outing the battery builder.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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circuit   100 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by circuit » Nov 18 2015 12:38pm

That's a weird BMS...
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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by tomjasz » Nov 18 2015 12:41pm

circuit wrote:That's a weird BMS...
Justin used BMS shaped the same for his incapsulated batt testing. I've seen them on BesTech sites too.

http://bestechpower.com/balanceboard/jh08.html
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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circuit   100 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by circuit » Nov 18 2015 12:44pm

Ah, so PCM, not BMS.

Anyway interesting and unfortunate accident.
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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by 999zip999 » Nov 18 2015 1:12pm

Sad to see. Even though something looks ok it a mess trying to get the soot off. Yes 18650 can reverse polarity and shoot fire out the top. How many cells times two for connections. Nice to have 20 cells for 20s less connections less chances of shorting.
Battery need to be safer. I mean it should turn into a pile of salt laying on the floor not a fire.

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by 999zip999 » Nov 18 2015 2:10pm

Where did the battery come from. Doesn't look homemade ?

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 18 2015 2:26pm

I can not say.... sorry

is right not Homemade

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Offroader » Nov 18 2015 4:39pm

Did you have the side cover of the bike off when it caught fire?

I am wondering what would have happened if those aluminum side covers were on the bike while it caught fire? I don't think it would have caused anything more than some smoke damage.

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 18 2015 6:03pm

Offroader wrote:Did you have the side cover of the bike off when it caught fire?

I am wondering what would have happened if those aluminum side covers were on the bike while it caught fire? I don't think it would have caused anything more than some smoke damage.


very well observed !!!
A day before I have programmed the controller via USB and the side plate is not mounted
on the other side is the sidecover burned, I have not made any pictures.
Shock situation at the moment you do not think it.

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sonnetg   1 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sonnetg » Nov 18 2015 6:49pm

so sorry to see this...it scares me to see how these batteries are stacked on top of another. If there wasn't strong enough insulation between the stacks, it too could have possibly shorted the batteries. It could have been a BMS failure as well.

You need to hunt down the battery and BMS manufacturer and sue.

This is precisely the reason why I prefer to baby sit these batteries during charging, no matter what type. I even go as far as monitoring using CellLog. I even opened a thread inquiring whether LCD monitoring is an option or not...but not a single response [Here's the thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=74281]. EV and Battery manufactures need to step up their game on BMS and allow manual LCD monitoring as an option. This fire incident is the 2nd incident i have heard of in a week where the batteries were not Lipo. That's down right scary. You can't always blame the user for such incidents. These batteries/BMS need to be "idiot" proof...IMO.

I am really glad the house didn't burn down and no one was injured. Hang in there..

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