Raptor on Fire

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Offroader » Nov 18 2015 7:00pm

Lucky those European houses are all stone.

What would sitting there besides and monitoring going to do? Do you think you could have prevented this if you were in the same room?

I believe that is a bulk charger, it seems most charging problems happen with cheap bulk charges.

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sonnetg   1 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sonnetg » Nov 18 2015 7:03pm

So who is the mystery battery seller? Please do share, it could safe someone's house or even lives. Why is it erased?
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sonnetg   1 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sonnetg » Nov 18 2015 7:08pm

Offroader wrote:
What would sitting there besides and monitoring going to do? Do you think you could have prevented this if you were in the same room?

I believe that is a bulk charger, it seems most charging problems happen with cheap bulk charges.
I hubmly disagree with that. I was able to ruin a brand new cell while soldering the power tabs. The 18650 cell now does't even hold half the capacity of rest of the Samsung 25R Cells. It discharges quicker, and also reaches max volt quicker than the other cells. If not for the CellLog or iCharger, I would have closed my eyes, and kept using the pack until the battery shorted or exploded. Monitoring these DIY packs can help proactively detect early warnings or issues and possibly prevent catastrophic events such as this.
Last edited by sonnetg on Nov 18 2015 7:20pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by tomjasz » Nov 18 2015 7:16pm

sansander.ebike wrote:
tomjasz wrote:Who configured the pack? I've seen some wiring jobs on ES Facebook recently that could have ned up just like this.

I suspect builder error and poor wiring. It would be interesting to ID the cells used.

I can not say the manufacturer, sr.

is all speculation, good or bad does not matter more.

Heck yes it matters! WTF, unless you are the manufacturer and are hiding that, you should reveal so no one else has an even more disastrous event. Seriously. This build is trash, junk, unworthy of the great bike it was in.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Nobuo   10 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Nobuo » Nov 18 2015 7:41pm

Very sorry about your losses. But for such charging fire event with that apparently high energy li-ion pack (I count 120cells 1.1kWh if finally those are 25R cells) you really won the lottery this time. The builder could be very helpful for the community if despite he don't want to face this directly could give to you from the shadows some clues about what could probably fail in that case, or at least the source of those cells, so we can investigate and maybe avoid a worst disaster.

Really thank you to share this
* Lithium + Air = Fire * <-----> ** Lithium + Chemical-Additives + Air = ZERO Fire **
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Gregory   100 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Gregory » Nov 18 2015 8:31pm

Oh sansander what a shame to loose such a nice bike so early on. Glad it wasn't worse. I really need to stop storing my cells haphazardly in my shed. Good luck with the new bike.


1) x5305 Hub Motor in a 24" Sun rim with 10G spokes, Kelly 72601 controller, 74V 10Ah Turnigy LiPo 20C Battery and CycleAnalyst
2) Mac 10T rear hub in a 700C "comfort bike" 15S 5Ah LiPo, stock 28A Xie Cheng controller
3) 38" Longboard, Turnigy 6374, CC Mamba XL2 ESC

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 18 2015 8:34pm

It's more challenging than most folks think to provide adequate mechanical support to can cells not to fail from chaffing.

Glad you are OK, and wear a respirator breathing that gnarly soot.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

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flathill   100 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by flathill » Nov 19 2015 12:53am

Try spacing out the cells, using high temp adhesive between the cell and holder frame, adding fusible links, and shield the bus bar

Strapping cells tightly together is idiotic no matter the cell format (and this fact will become more and more apparent as cell energy/power density increases), unless the cell chem is 100% safe or it is a tiny pack or safety is not a concern (ie racing)

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 013497.pdf

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 3:35am

Oh people, I understand that you do not like some people
why I do not want to call the manufacturer.
But this posting should teach us all that we all play with bombs.
I can set up legal not behave the manufacturer.
but some people take this very personally uuuuh.
alone knowing the 18650 as dangerous as are lipos.

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 4:03am

Gregory wrote:Oh sansander what a shame to loose such a nice bike so early on. Glad it wasn't worse. I really need to stop storing my cells haphazardly in my shed. Good luck with the new bike.
after the rain comes the sun.........
the more beautiful is the new Raptor

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 4:06am

where can I get these parts ???

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 4:11am

Glad you are OK, and wear a respirator breathing that gnarly soot.[/quote]

it belongs to the past.
My Flat is complett renovated
half a year has passed
everything well, from now on only forward

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Hillhater » Nov 19 2015 4:37am

sansander.ebike wrote:to this day I do not know exactly what was the cause...

Think of Mobile Phone, nobooks or electric toothbrush.

everything is running on battery can fail and cause a fire.
Very true, but phones and tooth brushes etc are single cell and hence low energy and low risk.
Laptop/notebooks have packs designed such that cells with casings at different potential are NOT able to come into contact. ......AND paired cells are usually insulated from each other....AND rigidly fixed.
Like others above, I suspect your pack was poorly designed and assembled, leading to chafing between cell cases of different parallel groups.
But ...sorry for your loss, we are all learning.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by dogman dan » Nov 19 2015 6:17am

Thanks for the additional information, I was very curious if the box was sealed when the fire happened. If you don't want to say who made the pack, it's up to you.

Shorts caused by chafing is a real problem. This pack sure looks to me like it needed much more supporting the cells, for going out on a fast, rough ride. This is true even if the cells are not in a double stack.

However, the way it caught fire while charging, does seem to point to a runaway cell. Very scary.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Hillhater » Nov 19 2015 6:39am

A short between a pair of parallel groups may/may not set off a fire ball, ....but it would certainly cause a hot spot and when the bulk charger is left on that will then overcharge ALL the remaining cells....which is then a big problem !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by ridethelightning » Nov 19 2015 8:06am

what of the possibility of a balance wire coming partially loose,(bad solder joint etc.) causing the bms to read a lower voltage then the actual parallel groups voltage?

would the charger then keep pumping in the current, over charging above 4.2v for example?

though if in this case if the charger cuts off at full pack voltage,92v, it might not apply..

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 8:20am

so slowly I think
the error is not on the battery, the charger....
the charger can also short-circuit and not cutoff.
Charge charge up to overload.
Thanks for all the ideas...

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Nobuo   10 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Nobuo » Nov 19 2015 9:04am

sansander.ebike wrote:so slowly I think
the error is not on the battery, the charger....
the charger can also short-circuit and not cutoff.
Charge charge up to overload.
Thanks for all the ideas...
The BMS is the main barrier, if the charger fail, the BMS will always HVC the charge if one of the series pass over 4.2V, or if a charger short occurs and the BMS can't limit the current, the BMS charge MOSFETs (usually one unit, or two or greater batteries) will smoke immediately, and the current won't have the path to flow to the cells.

Did you used charging port to charge?

If you use discharge port to charge, only in that case, the charger could destroy the battery. A fail in the charger and the BMS charge circuit at the same time is more than improbable
* Lithium + Air = Fire * <-----> ** Lithium + Chemical-Additives + Air = ZERO Fire **
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sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 9:11am

Nobuo wrote:
sansander.ebike wrote:so slowly I think
the error is not on the battery, the charger....
the charger can also short-circuit and not cutoff.
Charge charge up to overload.
Thanks for all the ideas...
The BMS is the main barrier, if the charger fail, the BMS will always HVC the charge if one of the series pass over 4.2V, or if a charger short occurs and the BMS can't limit the current, the BMS charge MOSFETs (usually one unit, or two or greater batteries) will smoke immediately, and the current won't have the path to flow to the cells.

Did you used charging port to charge?

If you use discharge port to charge, only in that case, the charger could destroy the battery. A fail in the charger and the BMS charge circuit at the same time is more than improbable
So but the BMS???

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Artur   100 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Artur » Nov 19 2015 10:31am

sansander.ebike wrote:where can I get these parts ???

We can order them for you. You want black or white color?

Artur

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Offroader » Nov 19 2015 10:47am

In my opinion the problem was probably from the bulk charger not cutting off properly. How could it be from chafing of the cells if when he started the charging they were fine? If there was a short someplace wouldn't he have problems before charging?

I have read too many issues with bulk chargers in the past and never bothered with them. I do use the Max-E charging solution as I have a lot more confidence in the build quality, and also for the fact I can use a high quality server power supply. The Max-E will also cutoff the charging if the BMS detects any overcharging of cells.

I'm going to assume he bulk charged through the main battery wires and bypassed any BMS.

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 11:18am

Artur wrote:
sansander.ebike wrote:where can I get these parts ???

We can order them for you. You want black or white color?

Artur

ah cool,
What colors do you have ??

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 11:20am

sansander.ebike wrote:
Artur wrote:
sansander.ebike wrote:where can I get these parts ???

We can order them for you. You want black or white color?

Artur

ah cool,
What colors do you have ??
ooooh White
sr...

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Artur   100 kW

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by Artur » Nov 19 2015 11:28am

add them to your email with Max-e and battery to send..

sansander.ebike   100 W

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Re: Raptor on Fire

Post by sansander.ebike » Nov 19 2015 11:39am

okay, thank you

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