VW e-up Li-ion cels

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Joachim   1 kW

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VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 15 2016 3:20am

400 cells laying i my garage now :P
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Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Punx0r » Apr 15 2016 4:15am

They're 1.25kWh per module. 500 euros is about $560 USD so about $450/kWh, which isn't bad for quality cells (which OEM automotive should be!).

Joachim   1 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 15 2016 5:40am

.
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Monstarr   100 W

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Monstarr » Apr 15 2016 7:36am

Panasonic/Sanyo, so they are NCA li-ion ?

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Pajda » Apr 15 2016 9:52am

VW e-UP! and e-Golf uses the same prismatic cells and they are based on NMC chemistry.

Joachim   1 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 15 2016 4:14pm

vw up cells no good no good :(
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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Hillhater » Apr 15 2016 5:41pm

I put a 16S 1p/25Ah pack togheter an it weights 12.5kilo....not bad for a nominal capacity of 1480Wh....
Excellent quality pack.
Panasonic pouch cells ?
But weight wise , maybe not ideal for a moped/bike. A similar sized quality pack of 18650 cells would be Well under 10 kg.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Pajda   100 W

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Pajda » Apr 15 2016 6:23pm

The 25Ah cells used in VW e-UP! and e-Golf are NMC prismatic format (not pouch). As was already mentioned they were developed by Sanyo(Panasonic) but the VW definitely producing them itself in its own factory in Germany.

These cells are a typical representative of the category of "robust cells". That means they can work in the wide range of temperatures (in e-UP! and e-Golf there is no active thermal management used (not even heating system) only the upper cover of battery is thermally isolated). Their cycle life is excellent even under heavy load like 2C continuously and also they can be charged with the rate up to 2,5C.

But the main disadvantage for the whole category of "robust cells" is their poor specific energy density. I have read somewhere that they have only 305 Wh/l and 158 Wh/kg. That means more than two times worse specific energy than the best 18650 cells.

Joachim   1 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 15 2016 11:39pm

old cells
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Pajda   100 W

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Pajda » Apr 16 2016 1:16am

Joachim can you please measure a dimensions of one cell? I would like to know the real volumetric density of these cells as well :)

In general those robust cells are always a good choice (i think even better than the most of 18650) if you are satisfied with their price and overall capacity of the battery pack per volume. But if not you are forced to go with 18650 as do Tesla and many people here (me included). :wink:

Joachim   1 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 16 2016 2:10am

stolen cells..theft
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Pajda   100 W

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Pajda » Apr 16 2016 4:04pm

Thanks for the recheck of dimensions, now it gives me about 227 Wh/l but still it is the one with the worst specific energy density of all todays cells used in modern BEVs. :?

I am also curious about the lipo look? When I saw them on a foto about two years ago it looks to me like standard prismatic aluminium "can" with two srew terminals.

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 17 2016 3:42am

no price :lol:
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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 18 2016 1:32pm

65Euro!
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Joachim   1 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 19 2016 10:34am

nice pictures he....al in Europe so not for you!
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999zip999   100 GW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by 999zip999 » Apr 19 2016 11:48am

Ya get the lead out. Great info as more repurposing of battery packs. How are you charging and monitoring ?

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 19 2016 1:13pm

buy a good new one man!
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999zip999   100 GW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by 999zip999 » Apr 19 2016 1:31pm

Your in Europe ? You can put two 8s sense wires for a cellog for ez monitoring or 4 - 4s for your baby rc charger ect. Not many 8s balance chargers for rebalancing. But not needed for new quality cells. But yes sense wires and bms for sure. Now need 1,500 cycles.

Pajda   100 W

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Pajda » Apr 19 2016 1:48pm

Nice progress and photos :)

I am also interested what BMS and charger you have finally used (what charging voltage and current did you choose). I am quite sure that you do not need for these cells any "super sophisticated" BMS, because these cells should be high quality with tight tolerances so 100mA balancing current seems to be more than sufficient (I think that you can go down to 10mA).

Did you get any datasheet or basic info with the modules? Eg. what is the maximum charging and discharging voltage? I found in my old materials that traction inverter in e-UP! works in the range of 296-418V that means for 102s cells maximum voltage of 4.1V charging voltage and 2.9 V as low cut off voltage. The nominal battery voltage is 374V, or 3.66V per cell. But i think that you can use even standard NMC range of 4,2V-2,5V and still you get the great cycle life.

The peak power of the battery is 75kW (4C = 100A per cell) and continuos 35kW (2C).
_____

Oh, you were faster... thx for additional info

Joachim   1 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 19 2016 2:36pm

wurk sucker!
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Joachim   1 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 19 2016 3:40pm

finde a real job lazzy guy
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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 22 2016 1:07pm

day will come
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okashira   10 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by okashira » Apr 22 2016 1:20pm

a
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Joachim   1 kW

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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by Joachim » Apr 22 2016 3:23pm

Nice they look like shit...as the same was mine they look perfect/nice 8)
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Re: VW e-up Li-ion cels

Post by okashira » Apr 22 2016 3:40pm

Joachim wrote:Nice they look the same bud only the bolt connections look al litlle longer....i think they are the same bud because of de pvc cover for
the parallel en serie+bms conections for VW module they make the -/+ pins on top of the cell,s flat so the cover can go flat on top of the 12 cells in the module.
Sanyo/panasonic.

how mennie cells do you have in parallel to pul out 30C :shock: if you pul this out of a singel cel this wil be extreem for a non lipo bud li-ion NMC cell!

Have you shake the cells en listen with aure ear?....sounds like there is some liquit inside,maby for cooling based with water and salt??
Paralling cells doesn't change C-Rate ...

One cell in parallel should be good for about 750A. Two in parallel 1,500A. Three in parallel 2,250A. I got about 0.0011 Ohm DCIR.
Three in parallel would be 0.00037 Ohm
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