Bosch Batteries

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Electro-Fox   10 W

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Bosch Batteries

Post by Electro-Fox » Apr 27 2017 2:30pm

Hi guys...
I know that Bosch's batteries are 36 volt, and Lithium Ion....but I was curious if anyone knows more about the chemistry. How many cells does the 500 Wh have in it? I was also looking for a good spec sheet on them, but can't seem to find anything. Does anyone know how good their chargers are? I was going to try and use the Satiator charger instead, just because it is such a good charger. I would need to remove the plug of the charger and make an adapter as the Bosch plug is proprietary, in an oval shape. I would assume that I would need to know the low-end and high-end cutout voltage too...hence the schematic.

Thanks

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The Battery Doctor   10 mW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by The Battery Doctor » Aug 06 2017 11:14am

Bosch is a closed system, no tampering. They usually use samsung cells (300wh pack). These you can open and you could connect the satiator to measure the capacity. However their later batteries are sealed and tamper proof. No one has ben able to repair them or make copies, yet. I have bought a few 300 and 400Wh packs that i will experiment on. Any knowledge about the bosh batteries pack are appreciated. i also buy them used/dead packs.

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I operate a battery repair shop in Stockholm, Sweden called batteridoktorn (The Battery Doctor):
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Se my english videos on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgrRl ... JI2MKqnmWw

I also have the bike/scooter brand sunstorm:
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ulikus   1 µW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by ulikus » Apr 28 2018 3:40am

The Battery Doctor wrote:
Aug 06 2017 11:14am
Bosch is a closed system, no tampering. They usually use samsung cells (300wh pack). These you can open and you could connect the satiator to measure the capacity. However their later batteries are sealed and tamper proof. No one has ben able to repair them or make copies, yet. I have bought a few 300 and 400Wh packs that i will experiment on. Any knowledge about the bosh batteries pack are appreciated. i also buy them used/dead packs.

Image
Hi! would like to replicate Bosch BMS protocol to use custom packs, got any info?
Looks like Chinese manufacturers have done it, as they are selling battery clones. but cannot find any info.

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flippy   10 kW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by flippy » Apr 28 2018 4:58pm

they use basically the same system as several bike sellers in my country (gazelle and sparta). if you cut a balance wire of disconnect the main lead of the board it will basically wipe the memory of the chip and make the control board dead with no way to recover.
once a board enters a fault mode it locks up and refuses service. it is designed this way from the start. some companies go one step further and use the comm lines of the bms to talk to the controller and "mate" with them so mounting a different battery will not work, you need to go to a certified dealership to buy a new 700 euro battery and program it in.
so far i was able to "repair" 2 batteries by simply soldering on extra wires and bypass the mosfets on the board. not neat but it is the only way to recover them when they enter a fault mode that is no longer present.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

miro13car   1 MW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by miro13car » May 02 2018 7:48am

The Battery Doctor,
once you have Bosh battery pack opened, can you make close up pictures of a board so we can identify processor on this board?
so we can look up data sheet to learn more how the board works with rest of BOSH drive?
for sure BMS must communicate with display, that is for sure
BOSH shows real SOC based on Columb count - what does it tell us?

Diva   10 mW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by Diva » May 03 2018 6:04am

I just changed the cells in two 2014 Bosch 400Wh batteries, some time ago I did the same for a 500Wh. I just solder another battery in parallel on the BMS (just + and -, not the phases) while I disconect the battery I have to change the cells on. Before that I put it down at 35,4V as the new cells I put in are at 3,54V each. We bought an adaptator from https://dokteraccu.nl/ that alows us to test the capacity of the batteries, and to bring them to desired voltage ;) .
The cells in the 400Wh are samsung 29E (LG before that, I don't know the exact type), and in the 500 Wh I think they were Sanyo's but I'm not sure anymore...
Unfortunately I don't own any smartphone to put you pictures of the BMS, but I'll try to "stole" my boss's one or to bring my camera.
I already repaired several batteries from Bosch without any problem, from the old type or the new one. But if the BMS is out, the battery won't work anymore and you will have to pay the 700€ to get a new one ;)

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skeetab5780   10 MW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by skeetab5780 » May 03 2018 6:34am

Back in the day the Bosch BAT836 cordless tool packs were some of the first 18650 batteries used by ebikers! But that is also when Bosch was alot cheaper. You could buy four packs and put them together and have a strong sony 18650 battery pack fairly easy, most even used the Bosch chargers too! This was a big performance upgrade from the 2c laptop cells and much lighter than A123 26650 which was the strongest.

miro13car   1 MW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by miro13car » May 03 2018 8:19am

Diva
exactely,
you paraller another battery to plus/minus so you keep BMS powered all the time when you replace original Bosh cells.

Camalot   1 µW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by Camalot » May 05 2018 8:19am

Hi guys!
I'm doing pretty the smae thing right now. I have two powerpack Bosch 400Wh, quite new, but withou any electric bosch system.
So, I want to use my batteries for other systems and motor.

As you know, no tension is delivered from the battery if it's not a Bosch system, but we can maybe hack the thing ?
At the connector, with the Plus and Minus cable, there are 3 thin cables. Maybe by connecting them together, it will work ?
3 cables = 1 for the ground, 1 for the charge, 1 for the discharge ?Or is it just too easy?
Some pics :
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miro13car   1 MW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by miro13car » May 06 2018 9:46am

You can always cut main leads I mean wires +/- from the BMS board, remove it and use only strings of cells with no BMS,
circuit board shown is much useless without commnunicating with rest of BOSH system.
on every power up display/controller makes handshake with this electronics.

Diva   10 mW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by Diva » May 07 2018 1:27pm

Just connect the 3 wires is too simple ;) There is a communication between the battery and the rest of the system. A said above, we bought an adaptator that allows us to drain current from the battery without beeing on a bike, but it is quite expensive (round 150€). If you won't use them on a Bosch bike, just buy a simple chinese BMS to replace this one...

I just got a 500Wh battery appart, the cells in it are LG INR18650-MJ1 3500mAh (in another one I worked on, I am quite sure they were Sanyo's. But in the 400Wh you sometime see Samsung 29E or LG too). I will try to take pictures on wednesday. I don't know who died first, the cells or the BMS, but the pack is at 9V. I tried to pull it to 30V with another pack, to see if the BMS would "wake up", but it haven't work...

miro13car   1 MW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by miro13car » May 07 2018 6:21pm

I mean to use that pack outside Bosh drive

Camalot   1 µW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by Camalot » May 12 2018 5:14am

Mmmh thanks for the informations.
I'm not an expert in electronic or not enough I think to change a BMS... Unless it's pretty simple?
We have to spot each cells and weld the wire at the good position in the BMS no?
You have idea of what BMS I can use?
Thanks!

Diva   10 mW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by Diva » May 18 2018 1:57am

It's quite easy, just a bunch of wires to solder (in the right order). This kind of BMS would do the job: here
At least your battery will be protected, and you too... I'm sure there are plenty of subjects here or on the wiki that explain you how to install it.

Here are some pictures of the 500 and 400 Wh Bosch batteries. I tried to take pictures of the chip on the BMS, but the writings are hard to read (even in real life).
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500Wh LG Cells
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500Wh BMS
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400Wh Samsung Cells
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400 Wh BMS
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PeterMar   1 µW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by PeterMar » Nov 18 2018 6:49am

Hi, the Active/Performance Bosch batteries use the following chipset:
- AFE - Intersil ISL94212
- MCU - NXP MPC56xx
- CAN transceiver - Infineon TLE6251-2G
There is authentication between the motor controller and the BMS and the battery does not supply power without handshaking being confirmed.
The only way to use this battery is to remove the BMS and use standard one, but then it will not work on the original system. I have heard of someone cracking this authentication and managing to re-use the battery or replace the cells and the battery still working on the Bosch bike.
As per the charger - it has a ID signal, which is basically 5V to -B and only then supplies power.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 18 2018 7:50am

I understand that Bosch is trying to create a system configuration that meets their needs. They are a huge seller of street-legal ebikes. They do not want anyone to bypass power restrictions or use non-bosch parts. In order to maintain a dealer network, which supplies the hands-on FTF customer support that customers demand (at these prices), Bosch has to charge a premium price to make enough profit to stay in this business while giving the dealers enough profit to also stay in this business. AND have products that are restricted-access enough that the governments in the EU don't crack down any harder than they are (250W is ridiculous, as the US 750W limit is "adequate", which is another way of saying "not good")

That being said, when the warranty is expired, customers should be able to do what they want with the product that they paid for. In my mind, that includes using a Bosch battery pack on anything I want, and attaching any battery I want to a Bosch motor.

they don't do this, then clever builders (like the ones here) will find work-arounds that might be able to be applied to Bosch products that are new enough to still be in warranty. Thanks to everyone in this thread for publishing this info.

PeterMar   1 µW

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Re: Bosch Batteries

Post by PeterMar » Nov 18 2018 8:26am

Well, it’s not only matter of what we want, but also our personal and of the people around us safety. By not allowing easy modifications and improper use, they are ruling out potentially dangerous and unjustified abuse of their products, which could bring a legal action against them.
Saying that, I am not against someone bringing up drop in replacement of their batteries and selling them as aftermarket product.
Our company is already supplying drop in replacements of the Classic batteries with almost double capacity.

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