Samsung 21700, 3Ah , 30A discharge.

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Hillhater

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Finally more info on some of the high discharge 21700 cell...
It would appear several of the manufacturers are using the bigger format for better discharge performance rather than increased capacity
Rated for 30 A continuous, and only 45 degC,...but also tested at 50 A !
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung%20INR21700-30T%203000mAh%20%28Gray%29%20UK.html
 
Wow, Impressed by the low temp after full discharge cycle at 30A!
 
This cell is intended for power tools. Other samsung cells in this format will come with higher capacity, but lower discharge rates soon.

I'm aware of this cell and can possibly get some, but my thoughts were that it wasn't great for most users, as the capacity is no more than a 30q, and the discharge rate is more than the vast majority really need. I wasn't going to wait for the high capacity versions, which should be around 4.5Ah or thereabouts.
 
cell_man said:
This cell is intended for power tools.
Click to expand...

Watt? Like electric bikes? Hehe... Master Cell Guy, ain't electrics (battery-electric bikes) ALL about the PEAKS (discharge AND recharges) at starts and "up" hills (against gravity), and accelerations? History stuffed with tech used for purposes the developers nEVer intended, yes?
 
LockH said:
cell_man said:
This cell is intended for power tools.
Click to expand...

Watt? Like electric bikes? Hehe... Master Cell Guy, ain't electrics (battery-electric bikes) ALL about the PEAKS (discharge AND recharges) at starts and "up" hills (against gravity), and accelerations? History stuffed with tech used for purposes the developers nEVer intended, yes?
Click to expand...

They are intended for power tools, the same way the Samsung 25R is intended for power tools. Not sure what is wrong with that statement or why it seems to bother you. It doesn't mean they can't be used on an ebike, it's just a statement of their intended application.

I asked the question if people think a cell with these specs are interesting. From my experience, most users don't need more discharge rate than the 30Q can provide (which are a 5c cell). If people think the extra power, at the expense of some capacity (it is a 21700, with no more capacity than the 18650 30q cell after all) is interesting, then I'd certainly consider getting some in and offer packs made from them.

Peace out :)
 
Hehe... MCG (Master Cell Guy)? Might be just that folks in NA are concerned more with POWER aka speed and acceleration? So I hope I'm NOT "bothered" by this, but only more interested in charge/discharge "rates" versus battery "capacity" that relates to distances traveled. For example, the quickest battery "recharge" I know of is just to swap packs... "empty" for "full". :) And my 21st-Century Urban Guy distances are shrinking (getting "shorter") between recharges.

So if I'm really interested in longer distances on a regular basis I think about paralleling in more cells ("weight"), but otherwise tend to higher discharge/charge rates rather than more overall weight (which needs more kinetic energy to accelerate and move).

Anyway... Just my thoughts re "power tool" batteries as used to transport people and "cargo", etc.

Cheers
 
No, not MCG. Not really into blowing my own trumpet or grandiose ideas about myself.

Saturday night there is it? Had a few?

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and opinions, I'll certainly bear them in mind.

Have a good weekend
Paul
 
So a 2p 48v = true 60a cont, and 3p = 90a? Nice.

I'd think people would be interested in 6 and 9ah packs with 60 and 90a discharges that could be doubled up for 2x range. Nice tight small and powerful, and a safer chem than lipo, likely w/bms. 2x 9ah packs in series would work for my bike. Would that be under 10lbs? It would be cool to swap them over to a 48v build for parallel too. Ease of use and versatility.

I'm wondering if something like that would be desirable for even maybe 20% presently of the west's total market though. Pricing plays a role too of course.
 
Well apparently, yeah these cells can genuinely deliver serious current without breaking a sweat. Whilst I'd say 30A per cell might be pushing it, but if they can do 15 or 20A without being stressed, that is already very impressive and is better than any 18650 cells that are readily available.

I will try to chase some of these up from my man in Samsung, check availability and price. I honestly didn't think folks would be all that interested in these as the capacity is only 3Ah in a 21700 cell, but I stand corrected :)

No idea about pricing yet, but I guess they will not be overly expensive. Maybe a small premium versus the 30Q cell I'd guess. I think i have the data sheet on my PC, and will confirm cell weight.

I'll get back to you, or feel free to drop me line if you don't hear back within a week.
 
cell_man said:
I will try to chase some of these up from my man in Samsung, check availability and price. I honestly didn't think folks would be all that interested in these as the capacity is only 3Ah in a 21700 cell, but I stand corrected :)

No idea about pricing yet, but I guess they will not be overly expensive. Maybe a small premium versus the 30Q cell I'd guess. I think i have the data sheet on my PC, and will confirm cell weight.

I'll get back to you, or feel free to drop me line if you don't hear back within a week.
Click to expand...

Well in my case it's like my first criteria, I suppose the lightweight dragster effect is really desirable. I can't go above 4P, next thing is Lipo... Which I'm not ready to use so yeah, these hit the nail for me. Hope that these and the new Sanyo will become widely available at "correct" price.

That's added performance and safety for our EVs!
 
cell_man said:
Saturday night there is it? Had a few?
Click to expand...

Hehe... "Saturday night there is it? Had a few?" HA! Funny guy... If you saw the thread on ES "The Ebiker Joke thread..." you might assume I like to kid around about "stuff"... like the sad state of urban transportation today... EVer heard the expression "Better to laugh than to cry"? ... and I recognize your username on ES as having been aboard ES for some years (I see my first post here as username "Lock" dated May 27, 2007...) PLUS yer "on the ground"/where the action is happening with electric vehicles (batteries) in Shanghai,in China! That's GOLDEN for a North American where transportation tech is still "stone age" with most folks still burning fossil remains using the infernal exploding combustion engine. In another ES thread "The life of the peripatetic ebiker" I've actually written a bit about my life as an ebiker guy. I was supposed to be a military guy (have the name, genetics and upbringing, but NOT the disposition...), but think maybe we have a "problem" with transportation with a growing population of increasing urban folks, and electric traction is my WEAPON OF CHOICE to help KILL THE CAR of the 20th-century that just is no longer appropriate (for personal use in urban spaces). AND I'm not a "Techno-Weenie"/capable as so many are here on ES, so decided just to PROMOTE this tech as my "specialty". So I mostly stay away from most technical "stuff" here on ES `cept to my mind electric vehicles are ALL ABOUT THE BATTERIES hence my interest in this thread! Anyway. Here endith the lesson for today and back to yer usual programming. Tks Paul. Signed LAUGHlin (The English named my ancestors "funny" but it's still pronounced the way the Celts of the islands that the Angles invaded (watt the Romans called "Britain", and referring to Scandinavians that used to travel - go "viking" - for the business of trade... and plunder. hehe) called the strangers that settled on the lanns by their lochs, or loch lanns, and I call myself "lock" for short.) :)
 
cell_man said:
They are intended for power tools, the same way the Samsung 25R is intended for power tools. Not sure what is wrong with that statement or why it seems to bother you. It doesn't mean they can't be used on an ebike, it's just a statement of their intended application.

I asked the question if people think a cell with these specs are interesting. From my experience, most users don't need more discharge rate than the 30Q can provide (which are a 5c cell). If people think the extra power, at the expense of some capacity (it is a 21700, with no more capacity than the 18650 30q cell after all) is interesting, then I'd certainly consider getting some in and offer packs made from them.

Peace out :)
Click to expand...

fully agree!

such high power density is a big benefit for power tools, and these cells are built especially for that.
the 30T only may be of interest intead of LiPos for very crazy powerd ebikes (where range isn't on top of the list), and other DIY projects, but for the EV world such high current cells are not of interest..
 
LockH said:
cell_man said:
Saturday night there is it? Had a few?
Click to expand...

Hehe... "Saturday night there is it? Had a few?" HA! Funny guy... If you saw the thread on ES "The Ebiker Joke thread..." you might assume I like to kid around about "stuff"... like the sad state of urban transportation today... EVer heard the expression "Better to laugh than to cry"? ... and I recognize your username on ES as having been aboard ES for some years (I see my first post here as username "Lock" dated May 27, 2007...) PLUS yer "on the ground"/where the action is happening with electric vehicles (batteries) in Shanghai,in China! That's GOLDEN for a North American where transportation tech is still "stone age" with most folks still burning fossil remains using the infernal exploding combustion engine. In another ES thread "The life of the peripatetic ebiker" I've actually written a bit about my life as an ebiker guy. I was supposed to be a military guy (have the name, genetics and upbringing, but NOT the disposition...), but think maybe we have a "problem" with transportation with a growing population of increasing urban folks, and electric traction is my WEAPON OF CHOICE to help KILL THE CAR of the 20th-century that just is no longer appropriate (for personal use in urban spaces). AND I'm not a "Techno-Weenie"/capable as so many are here on ES, so decided just to PROMOTE this tech as my "specialty". So I mostly stay away from most technical "stuff" here on ES `cept to my mind electric vehicles are ALL ABOUT THE BATTERIES hence my interest in this thread! Anyway. Here endith the lesson for today and back to yer usual programming. Tks Paul. Signed LAUGHlin (The English named my ancestors "funny" but it's still pronounced the way the Celts of the islands that the Angles invaded (watt the Romans called "Britain", and referring to Scandinavians that used to travel - go "viking" - for the business of trade... and plunder. hehe) called the strangers that settled on the lanns by their lochs, or loch lanns, and I call myself "lock" for short.) :)
Click to expand...

Well Lock, I have observed your various posts and links to cool stuff for years and I commend your good fight :) I like to think we're on the same side here (been supplying Ebike parts for years and manufacture our own battery packs) and whilst I am still driving a gas car, I am very sure, my next car will be battery powered. If there is anything I can do to help in some way, please let me know.

Nice to finally meet you Lock (at least in the ES sense of the word) :)
 
Hillhater said:
Yes, i will wait for the 5Ah , 3C, version. :wink:
Click to expand...

There is talk of a 48G 21700 from Samsung. It's an EV grade/type cell, and I'm guessing it will be a bigger version of the 33G cell that is currently available (~3.15Ah, 18650, not a high power, 2C cont. 3C max, fairly high energy density but with a relatively low price point).

I'm guessing the 48G will be 4.5Ah (or possibly a touch more) capacity cell. I suspect these may be available within months. Higher energy density versions... not sure yet, but for sure those will take longer to come through, if at all.

My thoughts are to try and get some 30T cells and start to prepare the designs for some packs. Then when the 48G are released, I'll be ready with ready to go with parts and designs.
 
good idea Paul
also with single cell fuses?
your other battery packs are outstanding regarding safety!
 
madin88 said:
good idea Paul
also with single cell fuses?

of course :)
Click to expand...

your other battery packs are outstanding regarding safety!

thank you for your kind words :) We're also hoping to have some further improvements in the coming months, by way of a rather smart BMS. It seems battery safety is in the forefront of people's minds just lately. It's been in the forefront of my mind for years. It's not something to be taken lightly.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
"If there is anything I can do to help in some way..."

... and "my next car will be battery powered"...

Cell Master. I gave up car ownership/operation decades ago. (Jumped into this new urban century.) I can HIGHLY RECOMMEND life with no more licensing or insurance, traffic and parking tickets, big maintenance bills... etc. Unfortunately, I squandered the THOUSANDS saved yearly on wine, women and song. Nice clothes, vacations, good food. ... etc. [Hehe] As humans I figure the BEST we can "do" in life is just to leave this planet as a "better" place for future generations?

Anywhoo. This thread title "Samsung 21700, 3Ah , 30A discharge." My first thought is most always CONTINUOUS? Or PEAK... and for how long... [Smile]

Carry on SIR.

L
 
Ahem the thread should be renamed with 40A continuous and not 30A as this cell does far better than expected.

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/samsung-inr21700-30t-35a-3000mah-21700-bench-test-results-an-incredible-40a-3100mah-battery.798683/

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/attachments/img_4999-png.649531/

By temp alone it can also withstand 50A continuous.

And I actually believe that it IS useful for any decent compact EV. Longboards, MTBs will benefit from it. Even sh*tty fake hoverboards could benefit from it. Unicycles as well. Any EV with limited space but over 1Kw power need would love these.
 
Vanarian said:
And I actually believe that it IS useful for any decent compact EV. Longboards, MTBs will benefit from it. Even sh*tty fake hoverboards could benefit from it. Unicycles as well. Any EV with limited space but over 1Kw power need would love these.
Click to expand...

the question is would it be wise to even set the controllers battery amps as high as 10C load (30A on that 3000mAh cell)?
which means in worst case it will be discharged in less than 6min (think of a heavy person going up a long hill witch such EV).

In view of cycle life (as example instead of a 30Q at 15-20A controller amps) it would be nice to have such "overrated cells"
The 30T would stay absolutely cool in this application, no abuse etc should lead to much higher lifespan.
 
Vanarian said:
Ahem the thread should be renamed with 40A continuous and not 30A as this cell does far better than expected. ....
Click to expand...
..I titled the thread "30A". because that is Samsungs official rating .
And i also added the link so that readers could check the test results to see exactly what the cell is capable of.
...i dont think is a good choice for compact packs due to is low capacity and high output, which as suggested would result in a very short run time. Drag race, or some of those hi performance heli /drone craft maybe a good application.
 
Hillhater said:
official rating .
And i also added the link so that readers could check the test results to see exactly what the cell is capable of.
...i dont think is a good choice for compact packs due to is low capacity and high output, which as suggested would result in a very short run time. Drag race, or some of those hi performance heli /drone craft maybe a good application.
Click to expand...

No offense meant, I said this because of the test results which are even above the official ratings that's why :)

Well I take my own example for the compact sizes. I weight at least 95kg fully equipped with my skates. I lean on the sides and with short battery wires can't go above 4P, precisely 2x2P on each skate. Because over this it becomes bulky and heavy, it will also touch the ground when I go around a corner or want to slide them.

At 8S a 20A cells pack limits me to barely 1150W of power ; at 12S it limits me to barely 1730W. A 8S 30A pack brings me back to more than 1600W per skate and is lighter than the 12S pack, where the 12S pack at 30A will bring me over 3000W.

Like Madin88 said, under conservative discharge levels the cell will remain cool and steady, yet be able to give the dragster feeling or hill climbs when needed. 3000mAh is a big capacity (of 18650 cell standard) so we do not lose what we already had, instead we replace a Prius by a Ferrari and keep same range. What's not to love?
 
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