Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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tostino   10 kW

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Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by tostino » Jun 09 2017 10:15am

Hey all, been away from the electric bike scene for quite some time due to work, life, and partially because a lady ran me down on my last bike.

After my last bike was totaled, I wanted to build another a few years ago, got quite a few of the necessary parts (9c motor, new CA, throttle, and a bunch of misc parts). I just didn't have the free time or energy to actually get it done and everything has sat since then.

I finally have the motivation to get back into it and build another bike, but what i'm currently stuck on, is what to do for charging. I plan on building a RC lipo pack, probably 20s. I'd really like to get a nice bulk charger for it, as well as my regular RC charger for when I need to balance. The issue is, so much has changed in the past 5 years, and a lot of the stuff I am been reading about seems to be no longer available.

In the past, I used a meanwell s-350-27 for my salvaged 18650 battery pack I built, and I was planning on getting a couple more to hook up in series to charge this new pack, the issue is, I can't find any of those old models, and cannot find any info on the new models that replaced them as far as mobility.

Are the newer meanwells like the se-350 or nes-350 the same as the older models as far as being able to hook up in series, and mod the voltage and amperage?
Or are there better options for bulk charging on-the-cheap now?

If possible, it'd be nice if whatever solution could also charge a 16s pack, because I picked up a pack for a bike I plan on building my SO, and being able to use the same equipment to charge both would be pretty convenient. Not a deal breaker either way though.

Appreciate any insight you could give. It's a bit overwhelming trying to get caught up on everything, and knowing what is still relevant, and what isn't.

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Overclocker   1 kW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by Overclocker » Jun 09 2017 11:50am

Image

Image

PMS poor man's satiator 8) in reference to the gold standard charger, Grin's Cycle Satiator

PMS offers much of the functionality

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=82731

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by Alan B » Jun 09 2017 11:54am

The Satiator from ebikes.ca is pretty nice.

The Meanwell HLG series of LED power supplies is excellent. A pair of them in series would do the trick as well.

tostino   10 kW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by tostino » Jun 09 2017 1:01pm

Thanks Overclocker! That seems to be exactly what I need. If I wanted to increase the charging rate by using 2 meanwells to power it, is it able to handle the load? If not, can two be hooked up in either series or parallel, to two different meanwells?

@Alan B, thanks for the info, will look into the HLG series. The Satiator is a little above my budget at the moment, though it looks really nice.

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cal3thousand   1.21 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by cal3thousand » Jun 09 2017 1:17pm

HLG and CLG Mean Wells are the best for this job in my opinion. Being potted, you don't need an extra box and they can even be frame mounted. Just add a $15-$20 Wattmeter in line, and you have the real poor man's Satiator.
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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Overclocker   1 kW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by Overclocker » Jun 10 2017 1:02am

tostino wrote:Thanks Overclocker! That seems to be exactly what I need. If I wanted to increase the charging rate by using 2 meanwells to power it, is it able to handle the load? If not, can two be hooked up in either series or parallel, to two different meanwells?

@Alan B, thanks for the info, will look into the HLG series. The Satiator is a little above my budget at the moment, though it looks really nice.

as w/ all boost modules the closer the input voltage is to the output voltage, the more efficient. that's why i use 2 separate PMS'es, one has a 36v PSU to charge ~48v packs. the other has 48v PSU to charge my ~63v

in both cases the limiting factor is PSU. both are just 400w. buy a bigger PSU if you need more power. or two lower-V PSUs in series

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Overclocker   1 kW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by Overclocker » Jun 10 2017 1:21am

cal3thousand wrote: and you have the real poor man's Satiator.
well there's nothing satiator-like with twiddling the pots w/ a little screwdriver :roll:

the PMS'es are digitally-controlled adjustable volts and amps, have memory locations to store presets, built in display to show volts/amps/energy. does everything a Satiator does except for graphing. but of course it's very ghetto

of course i can see that sealed meanwells are so compact for in-vehicle use

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by motomech » Jun 10 2017 4:39am

+3 for the Mean Well HLG's
Potted, CC/CV, dead silent, instant charging w/ no cycling to read cell Voltages and built to industrial standards(will last forever).
Can't be beat for the $$$
Make sure you get the model w/ the A suffix.
The 54A model adjusts up to 59.50V, enough for 14S;
100_0016.JPG
100_0016.JPG (94.07 KiB) Viewed 1088 times
These days, I using this Voltmeter/Wattmeter;

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013P ... UTF8&psc=1
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by motomech » Jun 10 2017 5:02am

Tostino-While you were away, probably the biggest development in LiPoly for Ebike use, are the MultiStar batteries. They are 10C rated and the trade high dis-charge rates for lighter weight, more compact size and lower volatility.
But the best thing about them, is that they are avail. in large capacity bricks, like 10 Ah, 16 Ah and 20 Ah, which allows a low brick count, making bulk charging much easier. If your dis-charge rates are not very high, say 30 to 40 Amps continuious, they are worth a look.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

tostino   10 kW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by tostino » Jun 10 2017 10:44am

Thanks for the responses all,

@Overclocker, I ordered a few dc dc boost converters so I can test. We'll see how they work when they come in.

If it's not reliable enough, I'll look into the HLG models. I already have a couple s-350-27 meanwells, so might as well try to use them.

@motomech I saw the multistars and was interested in them. Any info on cycle life, and how they compare to the graphene series? I was kinda torn on weather to go with the 4s10ah graphene, or 4s16ah multistar.

Edit: Overclocker, have you ever tried to push those dc-dc converters to see what their limits are? I'm hoping to eventually get a 1000w+ charging solution, so I was wondering if you've seen anything on beefing them up to handle the abuse?

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by Alan B » Jun 10 2017 1:10pm

There are threads around ES on the DC-DC boost converters. They are over-rated, so consider derating them. Many come with incorrect components and have failed. They are a great idea that is not well implemented. There are some cellphone type "rectifiers" that put out 48V at a KW or two that are much smaller and lighter than Meanwells that are often used for the converters, and are UL rated. Many cheap Meanwells and clones are not UL rated.

The Meanwell HLGs are rock solid. I heard Zero motorcycle used them for awhile. I put three of the 320W units in series for nearly 1KW charging and used them most every week day for several years. They are also UL rated so legal at work.

The Multistars have been good, don't draw over about 3C from them.

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by motomech » Jun 10 2017 9:14pm

Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

tostino   10 kW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by tostino » Jun 12 2017 6:09pm

Alright, got a few things ordered.

Ended up going with the 6s 16ah multistar packs, and got 6 of them on the way for a 18s 32ah pack. Will likely pick up more if they go on sale at some point. They were roughly $110 each including shipping at this point.

Going to use my two meanwells to power a dc-dc boost converter. I ordered a couple of both the "1200w" and "900w" models mentioned in this thread to see which I like more, and have spares. They're cheap enough. I really like this option because it lets me charge different voltage packs without needing to order a totally different charger for each.

Also picked up a 24 fet IRFB4110 infinion from em3ev. Right now I just have a 9c x7, but oversizing the controller isn't going to hurt anything.

I'll have to see what I can use to build a nice charger case which mostly weather proofs the setup, and makes it durable and easy to use. I'd like to be able to chuck it on the bike and charge on the go.

It'll be a little while until everything comes in, but i'm excited to get the ball rolling.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by markz » Jul 05 2017 11:09pm

Alan B wrote: Many cheap Meanwells and clones are not UL rated.

The Meanwell HLGs are rock solid. I heard Zero motorcycle used them for awhile. I put three of the 320W units in series for nearly 1KW charging and used them most every week day for several years. They are also UL rated so legal at work.
How much you buy your HLG's for?
I see HLG-600 for hundred$ but the HLG-320's $120ish
http://www.meanwell.nl/Images/pdf/datas ... H-spec.pdf

Looking for power charging myself, but think the HRP-300-24 for $100CAD($80USD) suits my needs. Not as durable tho.

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cal3thousand   1.21 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by cal3thousand » Jul 06 2017 1:45pm

markz wrote:
Alan B wrote: Many cheap Meanwells and clones are not UL rated.

The Meanwell HLGs are rock solid. I heard Zero motorcycle used them for awhile. I put three of the 320W units in series for nearly 1KW charging and used them most every week day for several years. They are also UL rated so legal at work.
How much you buy your HLG's for?
I see HLG-600 for hundred$ but the HLG-320's $120ish
http://www.meanwell.nl/Images/pdf/datas ... H-spec.pdf

Looking for power charging myself, but think the HRP-300-24 for $100CAD($80USD) suits my needs. Not as durable tho.
I like the HLG units, but a bit big to be portable. To me, the main benefit of these are the portability, ruggedness, and silence. If you don't really need that (charging at home), the HRP units are probably better.

You can get some really cheap SP-500-48 Mean Wells and modify them for charger duty (it's a task though) : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &sk=t&sd=a
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Back after 5 years away, have some charger questions

Post by markz » Jul 06 2017 6:09pm

cal3thousand wrote:I like the HLG units, but a bit big to be portable. To me, the main benefit of these are the portability, ruggedness, and silence. If you don't really need that (charging at home), the HRP units are probably better.

You can get some really cheap SP-500-48 Mean Wells and modify them for charger duty (it's a task though) : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &sk=t&sd=a
Some ditzy school kids hit my handle bars and my two series HRP fell, so I gotta buy a tool case/ammo box for them with air flow in mind. Them SP's looked alright, ebay's 500-48's are $125ish(USD) tinkering is right, naw man HRP is what I settled on as I already got 3.

What I found interesting about them LED psu's is the current aint that high.
http://www.meanwelldirect.co.uk/public/ ... 1781_3.pdf

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