The most powerful 18650

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agniusm   10 MW

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The most powerful 18650

Post by agniusm » Jun 21 2017 1:07pm

Which cell would be most powerful to get, no matter capacity? Would US18650VTC5A be best of the best regarding power output?

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by spinningmagnets » Jun 21 2017 6:14pm

I think the Sony Konion VTC5 is probably the most powerful 18650 (edit, VTC4 provides more current than VTC5, but less capacity).

I know this isn't an 18650, but the performance is phenomenal, so maybe it is worth consideration.

Samsung 21700-30T

https://www.electricbike.com/new-21700-cells/
“…Its temperature of 78°C at 40A continuous is the average for cells being operated at their rating so I am rating this cell at 40A…”

They also stated that the cell could provide a few seconds of a 60A burst. Not bad for a single 3.0-Ah cell

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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by agniusm » Jun 21 2017 10:33pm

Yeah, that one isn't bad at all :) Maybe later. Now i need something to push my 6P module to the limit.

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by redilast » Jun 22 2017 4:43am

Probably the VTC5A. Lowest resistance 3.6/3.7v Li-ion 18650 I've measured. And its rated at 35A max IIRC?

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by spinningmagnets » Jun 22 2017 6:45am

I was sent a link to a vape forum that claims the 2100-mAh VTC4 produces more amps than VTC5, and the 1500-mAh LG HB6 is the highest amp 18650 cell.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... &mode=view

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by footloose » Jun 22 2017 9:03am

Good article, thank you for doing the research and exploring the "why 21700?" question.

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Matador » Jun 22 2017 11:15pm

agniusm wrote:Yeah, that one isn't bad at all :) Maybe later. Now i need something to push my 6P module to the limit.
spinningmagnets wrote:I was sent a link to a vape forum that claims the 2100-mAh VTC4 produces more amps than VTC5, and the 1500-mAh LG HB6 is the highest amp 18650 cell.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... &mode=view
If capacity is of no concern and you're really looking at maximum possible current... The VTC4 probably beats the VTC5.

VTC4 :
VTC4.jpg
VTC4.jpg (46.82 KiB) Viewed 2069 times
VTC5 :
VTC5.jpg
VTC5.jpg (31.47 KiB) Viewed 2069 times
VTC5A :
VTC5a.jpg
VTC5a.jpg (38.66 KiB) Viewed 1851 times
VTC6 :
VTC6.jpg
VTC6.jpg (39.39 KiB) Viewed 1850 times

See, the VTC4 can do 60A for less that 30 sec (that's 500 mAh before it gets too hot), while the VTC5 can only do it for less than 15 seconds (250 mAh before it get too hot)... The VTC5A delivers 60A for less thant 26 sec (that 433 mAh befor it gets too hot) Here's the link to datasheets of all four :
VTC4 : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1283585
VTC5 : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1283557
VTC5A : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1299249
VTC6 : https://www.imrbatteries.com/content/so ... vtc6-2.pdf

All in all VTC4 wins for current x times capabilities.

I got a few of them Sony VTC4 :
3box%20VTC4.jpg
Got them from Doctorbass at a good price, although they are used (garanteed less than 100 cycle as the BMS chip from Makita packs is interrogated).

Images and my capacity testing data for Doctorbass cells (tested 290 cells... out of each 286 are good as new and 4 are dead) : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1289715

I've never seen any other Li-Ion that can deliver as high amps than Sony VTC4, aside maybe for A123 cells or other LiFePO4 (but 3.2V nominal) that used to be made in the 18650 size format in the past.
With a 6P pack of VTC4, you could get extremely short burst of 900 amps !

So, pushing your NESE kit to the limit Agniusm ... Love this attitude !

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Last edited by Matador on Jun 25 2017 9:23am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by cwah » Jun 23 2017 2:59am

They have vtc6 now:
https://eu.nkon.nl/sony-us18650vtc6.html

However, if i remember correctly, all high discharge cell have pretty poor lifecycle. Usually 300 cycle to 80%.

You may as well get hk graphene
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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by agniusm » Jun 23 2017 3:15am

Too late. Ordered VTC5A. I will get some HB6 later, they are out of stock at nkon.nl, they sure look like they have a punch. I think even VTC5A might be sufficient. If driven at 30A in my 6P nese module, thats 180A :shock:

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by redilast » Jun 23 2017 5:07am

Not sure why people are posting data about VTC5. No one here is recommending that. VTC5A is a different cell with different specs.

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Matador » Jun 23 2017 11:18am

redilast wrote:Not sure why people are posting data about VTC5. No one here is recommending that. VTC5A is a different cell with different specs.
Spinningmagnet is someone, and he was mentionning the 30A VTC5 cell :
spinningmagnets wrote:I think the Sony Konion VTC5 is probably the most powerful 18650.
I can't find the VTC5A datasheet... Where does that 35A rating comes from.... I would like to see some discharge curves.

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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by agniusm » Jun 24 2017 12:30am

cwah wrote:They have vtc6 now:
https://eu.nkon.nl/sony-us18650vtc6.html

However, if i remember correctly, all high discharge cell have pretty poor lifecycle. Usually 300 cycle to 80%.

You may as well get hk graphene
Its for testing a module. i dont need high cycles, i need cell to be as cool as possible. Inwant to go 200A at 6S so i need a cell to handle that at 6p

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Vanarian   10 kW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Vanarian » Jun 24 2017 7:20am

LG HB series no contest as far as continuous high amp and low temperature go. (under 80 degrees) 30A without problems. Highly underrated here because of low capacity.

For above 90 degrees Sony VTC5A higher voltage and same discharge capacity.

For bigger size, Samsung 21700-30T as said above. Super duper strong.

Both temps are end of full discharge so if you cut or regulate discharge your cells won't go this high.

What do you plan on testing exactly? Simply throwing 30A per cell in your NESE packs?
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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by agniusm » Jun 24 2017 12:20pm

Basically yes. My bus bars are .6mm and I would like to see when they start to be a bottleneck. So far they heated up to 40C when cells were at 75C at 120A and I think its from the cells them selves. Its impressive as is but I need to find the upper limit just out of curiosity.

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Matador » Jun 24 2017 12:34pm

agniusm wrote:Basically yes. My bus bars are .6mm and I would like to see when they start to be a bottleneck. So far they heated up to 40C when cells were at 75C at 120A and I think its from the cells them selves. Its impressive as is but I need to find the upper limit just out of curiosity.
Your buss bars are tin plated copper-core right? 0.6 mm thick by how much wide was that again ? (bottleneck?):

Give an order or magnitude (calculated for a max 2V voltage drop over 10 meter.... so 0.2V for 1 meter, or 0.02V for 10 cm lenght)... Watt's dissipated in heat ? dP = dV x I or R x I^2. Relation between temperature increase and watts ? Hard to say... We could make a graph plotting Temp increase (dT) in function of dP to find out the limit. I doubt well reach your kit's limit with any 18650 cells for amps... At least in short burst of amps...
The limiting factor indeed could be too high temperature... But cells would probably reach highest operating temperature limit well before your kit :wink:
Matador's Metal Strips Ampacity for 2V drop @ 10m lenght.jpg
NB : Of course all these ampacity values depends on lenghts of strips.... This particular table give ampacity values for that considers a 2 Volts drop for a 10 meter roundtrip lenght of conductor, just like what's used in this calculator https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm). For more info on those current rating (ampacity values), refer to the reference of origine here http://isobol.ru/files/Handbook_of_Elec ... d.1986.pdf at page 150.

I hope it helps.

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by agniusm » Jun 24 2017 3:12pm

Thanks. I am a more practical person. Theory is good but where's the fun in that :)

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by redilast » Jun 25 2017 4:39am

Matador wrote:I can't find the VTC5A datasheet... Where does that 35A rating comes from.... I would like to see some discharge curves.
Main datasheet: http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/daten ... AH_35A.pdf

Some others....

http://www.accushop.at/images/products_ ... 0VTC5A.pdf

https://www.imrbatteries.com/content/so ... 0vtc5a.pdf

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Hillhater » Jun 25 2017 5:20am

This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Matador » Jun 25 2017 9:25am

redilast wrote:
Matador wrote:I can't find the VTC5A datasheet... Where does that 35A rating comes from.... I would like to see some discharge curves.
Main datasheet: http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/daten ... AH_35A.pdf

Some others....

http://www.accushop.at/images/products_ ... 0VTC5A.pdf

https://www.imrbatteries.com/content/so ... 0vtc5a.pdf
Thanks for the info. I updated my previous post with the VTC5A tables (and even VTC6) to compare : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1298638
I still thinks the VTC4 wins for the max amount of current and times it can withsand it, judging by these table results, but the VTC5A is not so far hehind the VTC4
At 60 Amps, VTC4 30 sec vs VTC5A 26 sec
At 100 Amps, VTC4 8 sec vs VTC5A 6.7 sec



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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by litespeed » Jun 25 2017 10:20am

My next super high powered pack I want to build another VTC pack. Right now I'm using the VTC3's I got from Dr Base and it performs well pushing 200 amps on a 20s15p but I get voltage sag pretty good. I want to go 30 amp hour on the next pack for more range less cell stress, I get over 50 miles now and 25% hot ridding and 75% bicycle speeds mostly peddling. So my choices on the new pack are a 20s15 of VTC4's, 20s12p of VTC5 or 5A or 20s10p of VTC6 cells.

Pricing is not drasticly different since the amount of cells drops and the cost goes up. Weight goes down as prices go up!

All prices in euro, (to lazy to convert!)

VTC4 20s15p 450 amp peak 627 +70 to ship
VTC5 20s12p 360 amp peak. 672 +60 to ship
VTC5A 20s12p 420 amp peak. 768 +60 to ship
VTC6 20s10p 300 amp peak. 750 +50 to ship

My bike has a Q205 3.5T and loves to suck amps (peaks at just about 200 amps) so I'm leaning toward the 5 or 5A to lower the weight some and still have 160 to 220 extra peak amps that I won't even be touching for future requirements......

Thoughts?

Tom
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Matador   10 kW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Matador » Jun 25 2017 10:34am

litespeed wrote:My next super high powered pack I want to build another VTC pack. Right now I'm using the VTC3's I got from Dr Base and it performs well pushing 200 amps on a 20s15p but I get voltage sag pretty good. I want to go 30 amp hour on the next pack for more range less cell stress, I get over 50 miles now and 25% hot ridding and 75% bicycle speeds mostly peddling. So my choices on the new pack are a 20s15 of VTC4's, 20s12p of VTC5 or 5A or 20s10p of VTC6 cells.

Pricing is not drasticly different since the amount of cells drops and the cost goes up. Weight goes down as prices go up!

All prices in euro, (to lazy to convert!)

VTC4 20s15p 450 amp peak 627 +70 to ship
VTC5 20s12p 360 amp peak. 672 +60 to ship
VTC5A 20s12p 420 amp peak. 768 +60 to ship
VTC6 20s10p 300 amp peak. 750 +50 to ship

My bike has a Q205 3.5T and loves to suck amps (peaks at just about 200 amps) so I'm leaning toward the 5 or 5A to lower the weight some and still have 160 to 220 extra peak amps that I won't even be touching for future requirements......

Thoughts?

Tom

VTC4 best bang for the bucks. VTC5A if you can afford price per cell. VTC6 if you want high capacity but don't mind slightly more voltage sag.
Got my VTC4 from Doctorbass, slightly used (less than 100 cycles)... Mine are between 1.6 and 3.8 years old ; 2.5 years old average (from date of manufacture printed on cells).
In some makita BL1840 though, some cells were Sony VT4 rather than Sony VTC4 (same capacity, but DCIR is more around 28 mOhms DC rather than 21 mOhms DC). I actually notice the difference because of a systematically (and reproducible) difference in DCIR values. Code tag is also different (label says VT4 rather than VTC4). Out of 290 cells I got, 230 were VTC4, and 60 were VT4. 286 cells were as good as new. Even 3.8 years old cells have the as-new DCIR values (Doctorbass stores them in a cool and dry environnement and at around 50% SOC, with reduces effects of Calendar life dramatically).

Here's my erxtensive data on Doctorbass's cells : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1299346

20S15P (300 cells) from him would be 450$ (canadian dollars, that's 303 Euros)... But i did it the local pickup way since I'm in the same city.

Curious... How much voltage sag you getting on the old VTC3 ? Are they that old ?
How many volts drops per amps drawn ?

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by litespeed » Jun 25 2017 10:00pm

When pulling 196 amps the pack drops to the mid 70's on a fresh charge. I did have a bad sagging cell which I replaced so it may do better now. I did not cycle all of mine separately due to not having the proper equipment. I cycled the whole packs and pulled the bad ones. I bought 50 packs back in late 14 and built a 24s15p pack but changed it to 20s15p when I went MaxE.

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Matador » Jun 26 2017 12:37am

litespeed wrote:When pulling 196 amps the pack drops to the mid 70's on a fresh charge. I did have a bad sagging cell which I replaced so it may do better now. I did not cycle all of mine separately due to not having the proper equipment. I cycled the whole packs and pulled the bad ones. I bought 50 packs back in late 14 and built a 24s15p pack but changed it to 20s15p when I went MaxE.

Tom

24S = 100.8V (fresh charge @ 4.20V/cell). But 75V at 196A.... So drop is 25.8V @ 196 A (IR = dV/I)
So Resitance of battery pack is 131.6 milliohms.... Sound like a lot too much!
131.6 milliohm for 24S15p means an equivalent* internal resistance of 82.25 milliOhms/cell (*takes into account all conducters resistance too).
I think VTC3 were probably in the 18-30 milliohm range brand new. 82 mOhm is quite high for high drain cells, no wonder the sag !
My 2-4 years old VTC4 are 21 ± 3 milliOhms each (n = 218 cells).
Last edited by Matador on Jun 26 2017 12:26pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by litespeed » Jun 26 2017 6:32am

No....I have a 20s15p 84 volt hot off the charger pack! When I originally built it was 24s15p. I have about 7 to 10 volts of voltage sag.

Tom
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Matador   10 kW

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Re: The most powerful 18650

Post by Matador » Jun 26 2017 12:25pm

litespeed wrote:No....I have a 20s15p 84 volt hot off the charger pack! When I originally built it was 24s15p. I have about 7 to 10 volts of voltage sag.

Tom
So 9volts drop for 196A.
Ok, that sounds more reasonable... So like 34 milliohm DCIR per cell. It's actually still pretty good !

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