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New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 22 2018 12:57am
by litespeed
So it's time for a new pack and pretty sure I'm ready to order next week. So if I can choose from 25R, 30Q or VTC6 which way would I want to go. I read and read and always end up confused. When I compare the cells it doesn't really end up a fair comparison since I'll buy the cells to get the amps I want. Meaning if I go 25R I'll probably go 20s15p for a 37.5 amp pack. If I go 30Q then it will be 20213p for a 39 amp pack and lastly VTC6 will be a 20s12p for a 37.44 pack. As far as current draw I'm running a QS205 and MaxE combo dumping 14kw in which ends up being about 200 amps peak. The 25R pack can hit 300 amps continuous, the 30Q can do 195 and the VTC6 leads the pack with a 360 amp continuous rating. I have read the 30Q has no problem dumping more but gets hot with continuous high levels.

So on a per cell rating the VTC6 wins hands down in all ways but what I can't figure out is if all the packs are close in actual amp capacity then would the cells be closer to one another in finished pack form? 25R has always performed well, 30Q has many followers and the VTC6 was supposed to be king of the hill.

Pricing is similar on the higher capacity cells figuring in total capacity with the 20s13p 30Q being $874, the 20s12p VTC6 being $895 and the best cost per amp rating going to the 20s15p 25R at $733! I like the idea of the lighter pack with the VTC6 being about 6 lbs lighter than the 25R pack by loosing 60 cells. At the end of the day I'm looking at longevity, lack of voltage drift and mucho power so any opinions are welcome to this thread.

Appreciate any advice given.

Thanks,

Tom

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 22 2018 7:04am
by Punx0r
They are all high quality cells and that you are happy to vary the number of cells to optimise the load on each means picking a clear winner is harder.

On a cell-for-cell basis I'd say the 30Q is equivalent in performance to the 25R but with extra capacity, while the VT6 has slightly better performance than the 30Q but at a premium price.

However you look at it the 25R is good (powerful and cheap) but it is old tech.

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 22 2018 11:32pm
by litespeed
No other thoughts?

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 23 2018 1:52pm
by madin88
litespeed wrote:
Jan 22 2018 12:57am
So it's time for a new pack and pretty sure I'm ready to order next week. So if I can choose from 25R, 30Q or VTC6 which way would I want to go. I read and read and always end up confused. When I compare the cells it doesn't really end up a fair comparison since I'll buy the cells to get the amps I want. Meaning if I go 25R I'll probably go 20s15p for a 37.5 amp pack. If I go 30Q then it will be 20213p for a 39 amp pack and lastly VTC6 will be a 20s12p for a 37.44 pack. As far as current draw I'm running a QS205 and MaxE combo dumping 14kw in which ends up being about 200 amps peak. The 25R pack can hit 300 amps continuous, the 30Q can do 195 and the VTC6 leads the pack with a 360 amp continuous rating. I have read the 30Q has no problem dumping more but gets hot with continuous high levels.
No matter how you decide, every pack will work very well for your application.
About the amp rating fro the specs: forget it because a 12p Sony VTC6 pack will turn into flames in no time at 360A continuous.
These cells have very similar internal resistance so the max continuous current is also very similar. The 15A of the 30Q are a real world rating.

btw: i would take the 30Q

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 23 2018 4:47pm
by Green Werks
I just ordered a new 30Q battery 20s10p
Looking forward to seeing how it does
were are you getting your battery from

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 23 2018 4:53pm
by litespeed
From the battery builder I respect most here that was what I wanted to hear. I kept leaning toward the 30Q but when the vtc6 went on sale it had me second guessing. I know the VTC6's hold voltage ever so slightly better than the 30Q but the 30Q seem to have less decay in capacity as the cycles start to add up.

Thanks for helping me out. Looks like Nkon has everything in stock that I will be needing for this new build.

Tom

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 24 2018 4:02am
by peleap
I have received advice from these distributors .He introduced me as follows.
Sony VTC 6 best then 30Q and 30Q best then LG HG2

What you need to consider is:
1. volt drop when discharge same current
2. thermal when discharge same current

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 24 2018 8:55am
by spinningmagnets
If I needed max possible amps in the smallest package, I'd get the 25R and simply live with the compromises. However, my research indicates that the 25R is not lasting as long as the 30Q, measured in months, with daily use. I don't know why.

I see the Sony VTC6 used so rarely, it's hard to get any data from users. Sony has a great reputation. I would suggest that if the 30Q is cheaper than the VTC6, get the 30Q. Lots of builders have used it and the bulk of reports are all good.

The 15A rating on both of these cells is foggy. If performance is all you care about, buy one of each and put them both on identical loads (12V car headlights?). Track how they feel, and see if one is warmer than the other. If they are the same price, buy the one that runs cooler at max amps.

If they are both the same level of warmth, dead short both of them at the same time (outside on concrete, of course), and see which one takes longer to catch on fire. Video it, and report back here....

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 24 2018 10:51am
by Green Werks
If they are both the same level of warmth, dead short both of them at the same time (outside on concrete, of course), and see which one takes longer to catch on fire. Video it, and report back here....

Thank you so much for that it made me laugh and put a smile on my face
so good to see some one with your knowledge can have a sense of humor in
this normally stuff shirt industry

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 24 2018 2:21pm
by icherouveim
Hello,

30Q are overall very good value for money cells but I don't suggest you to push them that hard.
My peak power is about 13A/cell and when I accelerate the pack sags a lot.
So my opinion is to have more cells in parallel if you have enough space and you will not regret it.
I started to notice this sag after 6 months of use.
200A peak power means 15.4A/cell the pack won't last for more than a year if you use it in a daily basis.

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 24 2018 2:51pm
by madin88
spinningmagnets wrote:
Jan 24 2018 8:55am
If I needed max possible amps in the smallest package, I'd get the 25R and simply live with the compromises. However, my research indicates that the 25R is not lasting as long as the 30Q, measured in months, with daily use. I don't know why.
Could it be that you squeezed out the 25R more as the 30?
Or with other words: was the cut off and charge voltage similar?


Optimal would be following referring to the high current cells:

first and most important thing: build the pack properly which mainly means current flow should be equal through all cells
charge to 4,1V or less
stop discharging at 3,3V or higher
don't store the battery fully charged for longer time
in summer park the bike in the shadow and not in the direct sun
programm the controller to less than 15A per cell

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 24 2018 3:09pm
by 999zip999
You talking to who. ?
I still like the 25r. But only need 20s at 50amp. Still 8p for ah. Can 160 cells fit in an em3ev trianlge bag ?

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 24 2018 4:01pm
by Pajda
From the perspective of long battery service life it is most important your average DoD. If your daily average is about 50% DoD it really does not much matter if you are charging the battery to 100% and all of those cells will do the job well. But if your daily average is 80% DoD or more I highly recommend LG HG2 cells and then 25R. Right now I do not have experiences at high DoD with VTC6 so I can not evaluate, but I do not have very good experiences with 30Q at 100%DoD.

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 24 2018 5:32pm
by litespeed
As I wrote I have a QS205 3.5T being controlled by a MaxE and I peak at 200 battery amps. Day to day I might hit that once or twice to make the ride more fun. Average runs will be 100 amps at maybe 150 for super short durations of a max of 30 seconds. Even with the VCT3 pack I have I can't keep full throttle more than 30-45 seconds with out running out of road or hitting 60+ mph!

I'm thinking 20s13p 30Q should be a pretty stellar pack for me in all but full race conditions. I worry about the rumors of the VTC6 cells giving up their souls to early due to poor cycle life. Maybe they would be good? They hold voltage slightly better than the 30Q all the way up to 30 amps in testing. At modest 15 amp per cell I wonder who the clear winner would be? Is the new builder of the VTC6 cells a legitimate battery builder? I hate not knowing so much with little details to make an educated decision.

Tom

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 25 2018 10:54pm
by 999zip999
So 190 AMP pack or ?

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 26 2018 8:58am
by litespeed
It would be a 195 amp pack. But if you look at the graphs on the 30Q they handle 15 amps as well as the VTC6....literally shadow the VTC6 discharge line at .02-.03 less voltage. Only thing is they can not continually handle the current past about 2.8 amps where the VTC6 goes to about 2.8 ish amps.....maybe I just go to a 20s14p to be above that 15 amp discharge......that would make the 30Q and a 20s13p VTC6 pack indetical cost? And might even out the discharge graph........

Tom

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: Jan 26 2018 9:25am
by madin88
999zip999 wrote:
Jan 24 2018 3:09pm
You talking to who. ?
I still like the 25r. But only need 20s at 50amp. Still 8p for ah. Can 160 cells fit in an em3ev trianlge bag ?
I was talking to everyone who is interested in high lifetime and not about the last % of higher performance when using best cells.
Because the best cells will get worse so quick if you don't care about mentioned things. Thats just as info.
litespeed wrote:
Jan 26 2018 8:58am
maybe I just go to a 20s14p to be above that 15 amp discharge......that would make the 30Q and a 20s13p VTC6 pack indetical cost? And might even out the discharge graph........

Tom
Good idea. It should be on par than in terms of sag.
The VTC6 have not the best cycle life from what i know. I don't have a link, but i remember about a test where LG HG2 had better performance after some cycles at high discharge currents.

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: May 07 2018 12:09pm
by bigbore
litespeed wrote:
Jan 26 2018 8:58am
It would be a 195 amp pack. But if you look at the graphs on the 30Q they handle 15 amps as well as the VTC6....literally shadow the VTC6 discharge line at .02-.03 less voltage. Only thing is they can not continually handle the current past about 2.8 amps where the VTC6 goes to about 2.8 ish amps.....maybe I just go to a 20s14p to be above that 15 amp discharge......that would make the 30Q and a 20s13p VTC6 pack indetical cost? And might even out the discharge graph........

Tom
What did you do at the end? I'm going to build a new battery 20S14P and I'm very tempted to buy Sony VTC6 even if Samsung 30Q are 30% cheaper.

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: May 07 2018 5:25pm
by litespeed
I went with 300 30Q’s for a 20s15p pack.i was seriously considering VTC6 but most complain about longevity......on the vap boards.

At 15p it is definitely way over kill. Like my butt could sit on the seat for 3 plus hours burning through 45 amps.

Tom

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: May 08 2018 7:38am
by bigbore
litespeed wrote:
May 07 2018 5:25pm
I went with 300 30Q’s for a 20s15p pack.i was seriously considering VTC6 but most complain about longevity......on the vap boards.

At 15p it is definitely way over kill. Like my butt could sit on the seat for 3 plus hours burning through 45 amps.

Tom
There seems to be contradictory information...

Also the following test is similar to what we do while riding, in my case with 20S14P cells with 3Ah capacity at 1C I'm around 3Kw

viewtopic.php?p=1377089#p1377089
Pajda wrote:
May 02 2018 1:24pm
Sony VTC6 seems to have better cycle life than 30Q at 0.5C-1C cycle life test (Source: my personal tests) but I am now only at 250 cycles with VTC6 sample so I cannot tell you right now if it is significantly better. After comparing the prices the VTC6 is not interesting for me.

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: May 08 2018 9:15am
by ridethelightning
even 30Q @ 22s 18p, i still wish they had less sag :D when you ask for 10A/cell for a good amount of time, you can sense the limts....
ill always want a bigger pack :roll:

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: May 08 2018 9:20am
by bigbore
ridethelightning wrote:
May 08 2018 9:15am
even 30Q @ 22s 18p, i still wish they had less sag :D when you ask for 10A/cell for a good amount of time, you can sense the limts....
ill always want a bigger pack :roll:
10A/cell for a good amount of time is exactly what I want to do .... so VTC6 is the way to go :mrgreen:
And i will make my battery with copper strips soldered to nickel strips.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=68005&p=1378499#p1378499

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: May 08 2018 4:53pm
by litespeed
I guess we will see how it all works out for all of us. I’ll peak at 200 amps a few time here and there on an hour ride. My bike at 50 mph on hilly areas will only draw 3 or 4 amp per cell.

I keep a very low profile when riding to keep myself on the safe side of the law.

Tom

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: May 08 2018 5:33pm
by redilast
I'd say make sure the cell continuous amp rating is at least double your actual continuous amp draw, or your pack will have a very short cycle life of maybe only 100-150 cycles if pushed to their limit.

Also consider the Sanyo NSX. I prefer it over the 25R, its a bit more expensive, but has lower resistance and 100mAh more capacity and is only around 20 cents more a cell. I have a feeling cycle life would be better as well.

Re: New battery pack build.....25R, 30Q or VTC6?

Posted: May 09 2018 11:09am
by bigbore
litespeed wrote:
May 08 2018 4:53pm
I keep a very low profile when riding to keep myself on the safe side of the law.

Tom
I also do the same ... but sometimes during commute back to home in the night I ride on a straight road without anybody else on the road where I can drive as crazy as I can. We in Italy are pretty crazy about speed and today that I got my real motorbike I will do at least 140Km/h on that same straight that have a speed limit at 70km/h :shock: