I'm having problems with my Tiny BMS

mrgoogle87

1 µW
Joined
Jan 22, 2018
Messages
4
Hi people,

I have some problems with my TinyBMS connecting to my win7 laptop and/or my win10 desktop for my e-scooter.

Backstory:

I know an awesome dude that made me a 16s18p panasonic PF battery pack (4.x kWh!) for my e-scooter. Lead batteries stripped, original controller stripped, he added mean two well led-drivers and configured them as a charger and he did basically almost all the wiring and the basic settings for tinyBMS and the kelly controllers (it is a 6-phase! moped).

So all good and cool at first glance and short test (at which point the USB cable with the cp21x chip dropped on the street and most likely broke on the inside, because of rattling sound, even though I didn't know this yet at that point) So I build the battery compartment and provided some wiring protection, and I was able to do a 20-35 minute test ride.

At the test ride, I felt the scooter was first slightly holding ''in'' when using the hand throttle, but then failed completely afterwards and I had to walk home a few kilometers.

When I arrived home I tried to connect the BMS to the win7 laptop to open batteryInside.exe and I couldn't get the BMS to talk with my laptop. Since there were some driver issues the first time (when it eventually worked for the guy who helped me) I tried reinstalling drivers, rolled the scooter to my desktop win10 PC and used multiple drivers for the usb-to-tinyBMS cable, all of them failed. At that point I saw the USB cable was crooked and it had a rattle inside it where the chip is hidden.

So I ordered 2x USB (original) cables for like 60euro and now the PC instantly recognizes the CP210x cable again when I connected it. However, no matter what I do, I can't seem to connect/talk to my BMS in order to reset it (fast green blinks on BMS, have been told it needs reset after looking at logs)
I have tried both USB cables for the past 6 hours, with two different compatible drivers on the win7 and the win10 PC. I have installed them with administrative rights and tried multiple USB ports for both PC's.

I can only see ''Scanning ports... '' and the green ''Tx'' blinking when I open battery insider. Also lists ''Not Connected''

FYI:

- It still starts a charge when connecting charger (quickly drops to 0-1w according to wattmeter in the wall, since the battery is full at 64.x v according to controller software that does work.
- BMS is Programmed at @4.05v per cell = full)
- Throttle doesn't respond, but according to kelly controller software, it does work (see values change)
- Motor hall sensors also work according to controllers (kelly) and visible hall sensors switching from 0-1
- When I had to walk home, sometimes when I put the scooter back on I was able to shortly still drive before it completely shut the engine down
- New USB cables are being recognized when connected to laptop without drivers installed, the old crooked usb wasn't recognized like that.
- When BMS is in fault (I suppose it is) the 12v lights and blinkers etc. still work
- BMS blinks fast green LED
- Once disconnecting BMS from battery pack (balancing wires before big +/-) and reconnecting it, BMS gives and audible *BEEP* and I was shortly able to control the motor again, and shortly the BMS had slower green led blinking. (But reverted to fast green blinks again)

Is there anything I miss or where I should look at? I can't find a lot of information on the internet to help me further.

The only thing I might want/can try is to install windows (7?) on my macbook to see if that would work and talk to the BMS.

circuit said:

Maybe you could point me in the right direction? :) please
 
If the lights and stuff are also running off the battery the BMS manages, then the BMS is not shutdown, and is not the cause of the problem. What is the voltage at the output of the BMS (input to the controller) when the system isn't working?

If it is the normal full charged voltage, then the BMS is not shutting off it's output, and so is not stopping the system from working.

If it drops to 0v or an extremely low voltage (a few volts) then the BMS *is* shutting off it's output, and it *is* stopping the system from working.


If the BMS is not doing it, then it's something else with the system, probably in the controller or the controls hooked to it, like ebrake switches if there are any.

Does the BMS have a manual from the manufacturer to tell you what the blink codes mean?


Regarding the inability to connect via the USB, it's possible that if there was mehcanical damage inside the first USB adapter that caused a short inside it, the port on the BMS it hooks to is damaged. I don't know what you'd do to test that without an oscilloscope to see the data on the lines from the port.
 
I saw some cases where users managed to break the BMS by causing ground loop. In this case USB cable and comm port of BMS are damaged. It is repairable, but needs to be sent in for repairs. To check the port, see if Tx and Rx lines are shorted to ground (B-).
 
amberwolf said:
If the lights and stuff are also running off the battery the BMS manages, then the BMS is not shutdown, and is not the cause of the problem. What is the voltage at the output of the BMS (input to the controller) when the system isn't working?

If it is the normal full charged voltage, then the BMS is not shutting off it's output, and so is not stopping the system from working.

If it drops to 0v or an extremely low voltage (a few volts) then the BMS *is* shutting off it's output, and it *is* stopping the system from working.


If the BMS is not doing it, then it's something else with the system, probably in the controller or the controls hooked to it, like ebrake switches if there are any.

Does the BMS have a manual from the manufacturer to tell you what the blink codes mean?


Regarding the inability to connect via the USB, it's possible that if there was mehcanical damage inside the first USB adapter that caused a short inside it, the port on the BMS it hooks to is damaged. I don't know what you'd do to test that without an oscilloscope to see the data on the lines from the port.
Thank you! The controllers (who indicate green LED= good to go) software tells it is 64v charged, which should be correct. There is a e-brake system but that most likely was also working (have to re-check) according to the kelly controller software.

And yes, all the 12v is also running off the same battery trough a converter. And these still work.

I have yet to find a manual for TinyBMS and the blink codes, there is however a schematic/layout for the BMS here (I think I have v 2.1):
https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/tiny-bms-s516-150a-750a-36

About the USB: not sure how to test it. I'm pretty sure the previous USB was bad though, because of the rattle.
I do have a simple multimeter but I (myself) am not really an advanced user. I had help from a nice guy who installed everything (and can also ask him from time to time)
I do however have mechanical skills with *some* electrical skill due to my car mechanic background in the past. So I might not be completely hopeless.

circuit said:
I saw some cases where users managed to break the BMS by causing ground loop. In this case USB cable and comm port of BMS are damaged. It is repairable, but needs to be sent in for repairs. To check the port, see if Tx and Rx lines are shorted to ground (B-).
In what case would I be able to cause a ground loop for example? With the crooked USB cable that fell?

So if I unplug all power from the BMS, I should then see if there is a connection between TX/RX to the B- ? I think I can test that with just the simple multimeter.

If I manage to see or find a ground loop, what would the repair costs be approx? (Since a new one is also around 200-220 euro) Unfortunately I have had a lot of bad luck lately (not with just the e-scooter =) ) but I am positive and glad there are some nice people here!
 
Please note that communication ground is tied to B-, before load/charger fets. So, if you have your PC connected via USB to BMS, and also via another USB to your motor controller, you have a ground loop. In this case all is fine until there is an error condition and load FET dis switched off - all current finds its path via communication grounds.
Same thing can happen if your PC is grounded, and you have a grounded charger connected. Alware be aware that CH- and LOAD- are not the same as USB ground (B-).
Best/easiest way to avoid this is to use isolated USB adapter. You can find those on ebay.
 
Pretty sure I found something. I have unplugged the BMS from power and set my multimeter on the ''beep'' mode. I try to find a spot to pinch with the B- (right under the unused-current sensor connector) and pry the spray painted coating that has also been sprayed on the B-.

Unplugged the USB-cable from the BMS to check Tx and Rx and... *BEEP* on both Tx and Rx (unfortunately..)

To be specific: removed power from BMS, multimeter in *beep* mode for finding a connection (tested on a screw and worked), Black multimeter point on B- and the red multimeter point on only Tx and Rx = multimeter beeps upon touching it.

It it safe to say the BMS has been damaged? Or could it be any other thing you could imagine causing this problem? Could a broken usb cable also cause this?

FYI:
- I am or was not using a galvanically isolated usb cable adapter.
- The charger is not grounded at the wall however (to my knowledge, but i've been told it is isolated, just like the laptop and the two mean well LED-drivers for charging)
- I have personally not connected the tinyBMS usb cable at the same time as the kelly-controllers on the laptop, however this might have been the case just before the initial test ride.
- After the first test ride and setting with the help I've gotten it worked for about 20-30 minutes and failed while driving (if at all, it could matter)
- After initial first test of BMS, the BMS was spray painted with anti-water and dirt coating


**EDIT**
At setting multimeter to 200ohm I measure/read 00.7 and 00.4 on the display
 
circuit said:
Yup, sounds like its damaged. This is a fairly easy repair, so drop an email at: support at energusps dot com and you will get a quotation.

Thank you VERY much for the instructions. Already sent an email to Energus this afternoon, only waiting for a response now. In the meantime I will also scout for a usb-galvanic isolator adapter.
 
Hi MrGoogle,

Where did you download the driver from, do you have a site,

How did the repairs go?

Thanks,

Jeremy
 
Never mind, after a lot of searching to see what windows 10 required for USB-UART drivers I found the solution, sort of the long way around.

I checked to see if there was a windows update, and I don't think there was one available at this point in my search.

When I went to device manager, it showed the usb-uart was connected, but it didn't know anything about it. I tried searching for drivers online / update drivers and windows couldn't find anything...

I searched the drivers in cmd prompt, didn't see the one listed on the Silicon Labs site "silabser".
It listed windows 10 as having a driver called "Windows 10 Universal" and "Note: The latest version of the Universal Driver can be automatically installed from Windows Update."

I downloaded the "Windows Universal" driver zip file, and was searching online how to install.
I ended up at the windows update page again and there was a windows update available.... not sure if it was there previously.
Needless to say after I ran the windows update, now the usb-uart works and communicates with the TinyBMS.

EDIT: Driver can be found here below the picture: https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/usb-uart-cable-34
 
circuit said:
Yup, sounds like its damaged. This is a fairly easy repair, so drop an email at: support at energusps dot com and you will get a quotation.

LOL! Their support is terrible, if you buy a TinyBMS you're pretty much on your own.
 
Did you fix the problem?.
I have the same one, connected the BMS and my motor controller to my notebook at the same time. And now I can't access the BMS. I have already contacted with Energus but they still didin't reply :(.

mrgoogle87 said:
Pretty sure I found something. I have unplugged the BMS from power and set my multimeter on the ''beep'' mode. I try to find a spot to pinch with the B- (right under the unused-current sensor connector) and pry the spray painted coating that has also been sprayed on the B-.

Unplugged the USB-cable from the BMS to check Tx and Rx and... *BEEP* on both Tx and Rx (unfortunately..)

To be specific: removed power from BMS, multimeter in *beep* mode for finding a connection (tested on a screw and worked), Black multimeter point on B- and the red multimeter point on only Tx and Rx = multimeter beeps upon touching it.

It it safe to say the BMS has been damaged? Or could it be any other thing you could imagine causing this problem? Could a broken usb cable also cause this?

FYI:
- I am or was not using a galvanically isolated usb cable adapter.
- The charger is not grounded at the wall however (to my knowledge, but i've been told it is isolated, just like the laptop and the two mean well LED-drivers for charging)
- I have personally not connected the tinyBMS usb cable at the same time as the kelly-controllers on the laptop, however this might have been the case just before the initial test ride.
- After the first test ride and setting with the help I've gotten it worked for about 20-30 minutes and failed while driving (if at all, it could matter)
- After initial first test of BMS, the BMS was spray painted with anti-water and dirt coating


**EDIT**
At setting multimeter to 200ohm I measure/read 00.7 and 00.4 on the display
 
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