Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by jonescg » Mar 12 2018 12:53am

Arvio questions.JPG
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Just sayin... :)

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Punx0r » Mar 12 2018 4:37am

Have to agree with Hillhater here, in your scenario SM the super-caps appear to add nothing over the purely li-ion storage.

I think there's a fair chance in the future capacitors could replace batteries in EVs, but they're a long way off.

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 12 2018 7:05am

jonescg wrote:
Mar 12 2018 12:53am
Arvio questions.JPG
Just sayin... :)
Did you watch the video .?... http://www.cleanenergy.org.au/renewable ... ge-system/
Stay with it past the inverter/charger section. (Though that is impressive also)
"A paper and carbon device in a aluminium container"...( sounds like any old capacitor ?)
But Now i am actually begining to wonder about the validity these units :shock:
The Arvio guy, (paul Wilson), knows his stuff, is very convincing and is no dummy nor a bull dust salesman.
I find it hard to imagine him being suckerd by the Kilowatt Labs outfit.
A 7.1 Kwh unit that sells for $7k with a 10 yr unconditional guarantee and 45 yr design life with no loss of capacity and is totally fire safe !
The next version to have double the capacity Supercapacitors !
Jonescj,.. It sounds like you have been in touch with these guys ??
..let us know if you find out more detail.
Last edited by Hillhater on Mar 12 2018 7:21am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 12 2018 7:09am

jonescg wrote:
Mar 12 2018 12:53am
Arvio questions.JPG

Just sayin... :)
If you roll up a pair of LIB coated anode foils together and wrap it up and leave the LiFP6 salts out of the carbonate ester electrolyte and you've got a supercap.

For this reason it would be cheap and easy to use 18650cans and foil/separator winding machines.

That said, enough seems fishy about that cap to be dubious and may well just be an off the shelf 18650 re-shrinked with screw terminal glued to it.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 12 2018 7:31am

Fair point Luke, and i am just as suspicious as you...but
Inorder to be commercially sold, installed etc , to the public, ..it must have passed various forms of testing, certification and inspection.
They would not be able to advertise 99% RTrip , 10 yr no loss of capacity, totally non flammable, etc etc without verification.... So huge uncertainty still in my mind.??

And more confusing..
Kilowattlabs facebook page posts this picture of what it says is the Sirus battery....
Image
Which looks nothing like the Scaps shown in the other video ?
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 12 2018 9:04am

A video of Sirius pack cycle testing ..
https://youtu.be/CzqmWgBSrHE
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by fechter » Mar 12 2018 9:11am

From the picture:
Capacitor2.jpg
Capacitor2.jpg (12.4 KiB) Viewed 1053 times
3,000F @ 2.7v and has balancing boards. Seems like it might actually work other than the magically efficient DC-DC converter.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by jonescg » Mar 12 2018 9:18am

But if you multiply the energy stored in all those capacitors pictured you get like, 500 Wh. Where's the rest???

E = 1/2 CV^2 and for a 3000 F, 2.7 V cap, that's about 3 Wh per cap. Being generous, you're looking at squeezing a couple of hundred of them in there - at best 500 Wh worth of energy.

Which makes me think they are re-badgeing 18650 cells as 'caps'... :?

We've probed Paul on the AEVA forum about it. Something doesn't quite add up. At the very least, keep a consistent story...

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 12 2018 7:38pm

There is a lot of suspicion and disbelief around this device, but i am sure most of us realise the significance if it is truely a S'cap based storage system and not a "suedolithium" battery in disguise....so..
What would be the definitive tests and data that would prove its real base technology ?
Rapid charge/discharge test ? ...200C rate each way ? ..videod and data posted.
Photos of the internal components with some outline description and no mystery "black box" units of significant size ?
Explanation of the discrepancies posted on facebook and other statements...eg, why the difference in the pictured Scaps on Kilowatts FB vs the smaller device displayed in the Arvio video ?
Jonescg, i notice you are in contact with Paul Wilson of ARVIO via the AEVA forum, and Mr Wilson seems cooperative to supply information, so would you press him for some of this confirming info (or any other you think useful), so we can put this to bed.
Thanks ..i dont want to butt into another forum debate on AEVA, that may scare him off. :wink:
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 20 2018 8:01am

Copy of a post on the Aussie EV forum, posted bt the Arvio rep.....
Start by reading the patent that was published yesterday. Just for clarification there is no in series dc to dc conversion and no electrochemical cells despite Richo’s determined effort. We fly these units on planes regularly at 40 x the allowable Wh limit of lithium ion electrochemical batteries. There is no riddle. No trick. Always open to a visit at our business from anyone who is curious about how it’s done, and yes you can see inside it. Over 100 systems are being installed over the coming months. Many of them will be on line for all to see.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Mar 20 2018 10:26am

... 40 x the allowable Wh limit of lithium ion electrochemical batteries.
wtf duz that even mean?
iz there sum legal limit context or iz dis auspeak?
guessing itz Wh per cc or gram or sump thing.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by fechter » Mar 20 2018 12:35pm

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:
Mar 20 2018 10:26am
... 40 x the allowable Wh limit of lithium ion electrochemical batteries.
wtf duz that even mean?
iz there sum legal limit context or iz dis auspeak?
guessing itz Wh per cc or gram or sump thing.
There is a limit of how large a lithium ion battery can be to fly on a plane. Fire safety rule. Capacitors are not covered by this rule.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by billvon » Mar 20 2018 1:01pm

fechter wrote:
Mar 20 2018 12:35pm
There is a limit of how large a lithium ion battery can be to fly on a plane. Fire safety rule. Capacitors are not covered by this rule.
That will continue until one day a capacitor bank is shorted, and the resulting explosion blows a hole in the side of the plane.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by spinningmagnets » Mar 20 2018 1:04pm

The capacity / range of a super-capacitor bank remains the huge downside, however, they can be shipped with zero charge in any size. They are not a "battery", and they do not contain lithium, or...any other contentious element that may catch on fire during shipment, or someday be in short supply (cobalt, etc).

If your biggest problem has been shipping lithium battery packs that are larger than 100-WH, then SC's are a delight...as long as you don't mind short range.

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 20 2018 3:41pm

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:
Mar 20 2018 10:26am
... 40 x the allowable Wh limit of lithium ion electrochemical batteries.
wtf duz that even mean?
iz there sum legal limit context or iz dis auspeak?
guessing itz Wh per cc or gram or sump thing.
He is just refering to the 100Wh limit on lithium batteries allowed on aircraft.
Their "supercap" bank unit claims to have 3.55 kWh capacity,...and that is what they are shipping around on aircraft.
So he is implying the FAA have declared it is safe to ship by air , presumeably because Kilowattlabs have signed some official, legal, declaration that there is no lithium in these devices ?
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Chalo » Mar 20 2018 5:04pm

It's bordering on disingenuous to compare supercaps to batteries for the same applications. The applications are very much not the same. Most battery powered devices depend on voltage remaining within a relatively narrow working range. Capacitors by nature don't and can't provide steady voltage. They slide linearly to zero as they're discharged.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by billvon » Mar 20 2018 5:10pm

Chalo wrote:
Mar 20 2018 5:04pm
It's bordering on disingenuous to compare supercaps to batteries for the same applications. The applications are very much not the same. Most battery powered devices depend on voltage remaining within a relatively narrow working range. Capacitors by nature don't and can't provide steady voltage. They slide linearly to zero as they're discharged.
That's not such a bad thing, though. If your motor controller has a working range of 42 to 29 volts for example (not unusual) you have gotten more than 50% of the energy out of the battery. And by changing the low voltage cutoff you can get >80%.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 20 2018 5:45pm

Chalo wrote:
Mar 20 2018 5:04pm
It's bordering on disingenuous to compare supercaps to batteries for the same applications. The applications are very much not the same. Most battery powered devices depend on voltage remaining within a relatively narrow working range. Capacitors by nature don't and can't provide steady voltage. They slide linearly to zero as they're discharged.
Backtrack a few posts.
You will see that this "Sirius" supercap pack claims to operate between 44-54 volts .....(somehow ?)
But that is small beer in comparason to the claimed energy density, with is many orders of magnitude more than any known supercapacitor.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Chalo » Mar 21 2018 3:18am

Hillhater wrote:
Mar 20 2018 5:45pm
Chalo wrote:
Mar 20 2018 5:04pm
Capacitors by nature don't and can't provide steady voltage. They slide linearly to zero as they're discharged.
Backtrack a few posts.
You will see that this "Sirius" supercap pack claims to operate between 44-54 volts .....(somehow ?)
Well then... that's not a capacitor. A capacitor stores charge across a dielectric, and the voltage directly reflects the amount of charge remaining. If that's not what it's doing, then it isn't a capacitor.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by jonescg » Mar 21 2018 3:32am

We've been probing the local sales rep about it, who maintains that it's a supercapacitor array. He even suggested we read the patent document which clearly states that a LiFePO4 battery is used to maintain charge on the capacitors...

"In some embodiments, a plurality of supercapacitors are connected in series to form, an array with a predetermined VDC (voltage direct-current) output. Each supercapacitor in the array can be embedded with a battery (such as an Lithium Iron Phosphate (“LFP”) battery) of an amount equivalent to a predetermined percentage of the storage capacity of the supercapacitor."

It might be fair to call it an energy storage device, but it looks to be more battery than capacitor.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by spinningmagnets » Mar 21 2018 11:05am

In this video, the Australian "Ultrabattery" combines lead-acid batteries with super-capacitors at the cell level. Fast forward to 4:24 to get past the intro and safety warnings (the remainder is 11 minutes)...Sooo...I guess all the speculation years ago of combining batteries with capacitors (for burst amps) was not as crazy as it sounded?

https://youtu.be/N1jusadHkmM?t=264


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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by billvon » Mar 21 2018 2:49pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Mar 21 2018 11:05am
In this video, the Australian "Ultrabattery" combines lead-acid batteries with super-capacitors at the cell level. Fast forward to 4:24 to get past the intro and safety warnings (the remainder is 11 minutes)...Sooo...I guess all the speculation years ago of combining batteries with capacitors (for burst amps) was not as crazy as it sounded?
Still sounds a little crazy - especially since lead acid has amazingly high instantaneous discharge capability. I could see it with something like the (now-defunct) Aquion battery, which has a very high ESR.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 21 2018 4:29pm

I guess you guys dont read all the threads you start..
From the "DIY Supercaps" thread..
Re: DIY Super Capacitors, and Robert Murray-Smith
Post by Hillhater » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:12 am

That RMS video of basic combining of supercapacitor and lead acid in one cell made me follow up on the "Ultrabattery". https://youtu.be/N1jusadHkmM
It may be old news to some of you , but the "ultrabattery" seems to have passed under the radar for some reason ?
On another thread (wind , Solar, coal, etc etc) i had posted about the Australian King Island micro grid project, with Solar, wind, diesel, battery storage, etc ,...all combined in a micro utility scale grid to research performance.
http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au
Dispite several enquiries i could not find what type of battery they were using, but now i have discovered they are using a 3.0MW, 1.6 MWh , "Ecoult Ultrabattery" ,..and have been for several years
However it seems impossible to get any detail feedback as to its performance etc
https://www.ecoult.com/technology/ultrabattery
So "Supercapacitor Batteries". Of one form at least, Are available commercially !
PS, i believe these "Ultrabatteries" are now produced in the USA by East Pen Manufacturing, under the name "Deka" battery.
http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/ta ... rabattery/
So, the Lead Acid. Ultrabattery has been in commeral use for several years, not just in an Aussie project but also in grid scale storage in the US i understand.
Its main benefits are claimed to be a greatly extended cycle life, higher cycle efficiency, and potentially greater capacity..compared to an equivalent Conventional Lead Acid battery.
As i said, it seems to have slipped under our "ES tech radar" somehow, ..... But still too big, heavy, and expensive for an EV !
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Mar 21 2018 4:54pm

Chalo wrote:
Mar 21 2018 3:18am
Hillhater wrote:
Mar 20 2018 5:45pm
Backtrack a few posts.
You will see that this "Sirius" supercap pack claims to operate between 44-54 volts .....(somehow ?)
Well then... that's not a capacitor. A capacitor stores charge across a dielectric, and the voltage directly reflects the amount of charge remaining. If that's not what it's doing, then it isn't a capacitor.
To steal a phrase from a famous Tech hero..... "Not a Capacitor as you know it Jim" :D
The agent (Arvio, and presumably the manufacturer, Kilowattlabs).. Are very insistant that this is a Capacitor storage device, with NO chemical battery content. They have offered an open invitation to anyone to visit , inspect, test, etc the device ....so they seem very confident
The claim is they have "secret sauce" electronics... (not dc/dc conversion).. Which results in the 44/54 volt range !
They have explained the Patent details as a "generalisation" which do not necessarily represent the actual device they are distributing.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 21 2018 5:05pm

Hillhater wrote:
Mar 21 2018 4:54pm
Chalo wrote:
Mar 21 2018 3:18am
Hillhater wrote:
Mar 20 2018 5:45pm
Backtrack a few posts.
You will see that this "Sirius" supercap pack claims to operate between 44-54 volts .....(somehow ?)
Well then... that's not a capacitor. A capacitor stores charge across a dielectric, and the voltage directly reflects the amount of charge remaining. If that's not what it's doing, then it isn't a capacitor.
To steal a phrase from a famous Tech hero..... "Not a Capacitor as you know it Jim" :D
The agent (Arvio, and presumably the manufacturer, Kilowattlabs).. Are very insistant that this is a Capacitor storage device, with NO chemical battery content. They have offered an open invitation to anyone to visit , inspect, test, etc the device ....so they seem very confident
The claim is they have "secret sauce" electronics... (not dc/dc conversion).. Which results in the 44/54 volt range !
They have explained the Patent details as a "generalisation" which do not necessarily represent the actual device they are distributing.
Combined with the 1C in/out limits, it seems to have power behavior, voltage characteristics, and energy density an awful lot like a box of low C rate iron phosphate cells would have.
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