Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Apr 18 2018 6:27pm

fechter wrote:
Apr 18 2018 1:53pm
Here is a datasheet from Maxwell for a new product they call a "Pseudocapacitor"
https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/257/CE_2017 ... 274211.pdf

These may be what they are using.
..if they are using those, then they have also invented "anti-gravity" !! :shock:
At 5.2 Wh/kg , it would need ~~ 700kg to give 3.55kWh capacity
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by fechter » Apr 19 2018 1:15pm

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 18 2018 6:27pm
..if they are using those, then they have also invented "anti-gravity" !! :shock:
At 5.2 Wh/kg , it would need ~~ 700kg to give 3.55kWh capacity
I missed that. Well, I guess we can eliminate that possibility.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by weber » Apr 26 2018 2:22am

liveforphysics wrote:
Apr 18 2018 1:08am
Its not a bad thing at all to be using LTO for bulk energy storage, ...
I totally agree.
... and not technically incorrect to describe them as an ion recharged super capacitor.
But that is complete bollocks. :lol:

Sure, every battery has some capacitance. So what? Merely having capacitance (super or not) doesn't make something a capacitor. Every battery has some resistance too. Is it therefore technically correct to call a battery a resistor? Of course not. Its other electrical properties make it completely unsuitable to do the job expected of a resistor. And it won't last anywhere near as long as a resistor will.

Every resistor has some capacitance. Is it technically correct to call a resistor a capacitor? Of course not.

The data provided by Arvio allow us to determine what the capacitance of this device actually is. See
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php ... ads#p67197
It is less than one farad! (Arvio claim 3000 farads). That means less than 0.1% of the energy is stored in its capacitance and 99.9% is stored in its "batteryance". It's a battery cell. It's not a capacitor. Nor is it a hybrid. Even a capacitor/battery hybrid would be expected to store a significan't proportion of its energy in its capacitance.

But what really matters are the false claims. Did you miss that they are claiming a projected life of 1,000,000 cycles and 45 years? Did you miss that they are claiming such low toxicity that it can be safely composted? Did you miss that they are claiming it can be charged in 30 seconds? Did you miss that they are claiming it will operate safely at 85 °C (185 °F)? If a consumer is fooled into thinking it's a supercapacitor, those claims sound plausible. But we both know it's an LTO cell, so those claims are ludicrous and dangerous.

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by TheBeastie » Apr 26 2018 3:33am

weber wrote:
Apr 26 2018 2:22am
liveforphysics wrote:
Apr 18 2018 1:08am
Its not a bad thing at all to be using LTO for bulk energy storage, ...
I totally agree.
... and not technically incorrect to describe them as an ion recharged super capacitor.
But that is complete bollocks. :lol:

Sure, every battery has some capacitance. So what? Merely having capacitance (super or not) doesn't make something a capacitor. Every battery has some resistance too. Is it therefore technically correct to call a battery a resistor? Of course not. Its other electrical properties make it completely unsuitable to do the job expected of a resistor. And it won't last anywhere near as long as a resistor will.

Every resistor has some capacitance. Is it technically correct to call a resistor a capacitor? Of course not.

The data provided by Arvio allow us to determine what the capacitance of this device actually is. See
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php ... ads#p67197
It is less than one farad! (Arvio claim 3000 farads). That means less than 0.1% of the energy is stored in its capacitance and 99.9% is stored in its "batteryance". It's a battery cell. It's not a capacitor. Nor is it a hybrid. Even a capacitor/battery hybrid would be expected to store a significan't proportion of its energy in its capacitance.

But what really matters are the false claims. Did you miss that they are claiming a projected life of 1,000,000 cycles and 45 years? Did you miss that they are claiming such low toxicity that it can be safely composted? Did you miss that they are claiming it can be charged in 30 seconds? Did you miss that they are claiming it will operate safely at 85 °C (185 °F)? If a consumer is fooled into thinking it's a supercapacitor, those claims sound plausible. But in reality it's an LTO cell and those claims are ludicrous and dangerous.
Hehehe.
When watching the Arvio youtube videos etc, he was making very direct statements that they were supercaps. And considering the fact I had no interest in buying such a storage-device I never really thought too deep about it, and I thought it would just be too weird for someone to lie about this stuff as surely hes going to get found out in the long run.
But now that I see he is receving potentially millions of dollars in green renewable energy grants I can see why the lies have come about..

Just going through that thread and the WP thread which links to this https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/developi ... ting-jobs/
The Andrews Labor Government will provide $825,000 towards a pilot project to develop solar battery storage kits and create local jobs.

A consortium of five companies, led by innovation company ARVIO, will receive funding under the second round of the Labor Government’s $20 million New Energy Jobs Fund.

Considering its the Victorian Labor Dan Andrews government I wouldn't be surprised if they are giving this guy millions, in fact, I would be surprised they aren't giving out 100's of millions to dodgy projects.
It seems like it doesn't matter where you look in renewable energy tech someones cheating on the numbers, I had to redo my calculations on Capacity Factor on wind/solar in Germany etc, because I used the Installed Capacity numbers listed on Electricitymap.org I later found they deliberately use Installed capacity from 1-2 years ago so that the current generation numbers look more impressive then they really are.
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Last edited by TheBeastie on Apr 26 2018 3:40am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by jonescg » Apr 26 2018 3:37am

No, you only gave a shit about supercapacitors when you learned there was an opportunity to bash lefty/greenies :lol:

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 26 2018 3:41am

No argument they should just say it's LTO cells.

That said, having 1F (or any amount of capacitive storage) does still make it a capacitor that gets recharged by an electrochemical process. That electrochemical process also stores nearly all the energy.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by weber » Apr 26 2018 4:05am

liveforphysics wrote:
Apr 26 2018 3:41am
That said, having 1F (or any amount of capacitive storage) does still make it a capacitor that gets recharged by an electrochemical process.
I know I've only made 2 posts to this forum and you've made a zillion. And I don't know anything about you except the posts I've read in this thread. And your handle "live for physics" makes you sound like my kinda guy. But if you insist that anything that has capacitance is a capacitor, then I'll just trust that everyone else can see the problem with this, and I won't bother arguing any further.

But I will say, my main concern with this is to reduce the suffering caused when people are induced to part with their hard earned cash on the basis of grossly inflated claims, and you're really not helping.

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by weber » Apr 26 2018 4:41am

TheBeastie wrote:
Apr 26 2018 3:33am
Considering its the Victorian Labor Dan Andrews government I wouldn't be surprised if they are giving this guy millions, in fact, I would be surprised they aren't giving out 100's of millions to dodgy projects.

It seems like it doesn't matter where you look in renewable energy tech someones cheating on the numbers,
Ha! When I mentioned this stuff to a journalist friend of mine. His immediate response was to predict that anti-renewables types would try to use it to tar the whole industry with the same brush. So I'd like to note a couple of things:
1. You can see exactly what they are giving money to, and how much, and so you can see they are not doing any of those things that wouldn't surprise you.
2. I am most definitely a renewable energy insider, so what you are witnessing here is the renewables industry self-correcting.
Last edited by weber on Apr 26 2018 6:48am, edited 1 time in total.

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 26 2018 6:20am

Every trace on a circuit board is a cap, a resistor, and an inductor. Every wire is a cap, a resistor, and an inductor. Every motor is a cap a resistor and an inductor. Every battery is a cap, a resistor, an ionic impedance, and an inductor.

1F at pack voltage is a massive amount of capacitance, as every time you double the number of caps in series the capacitance is halved. If you start with a 10F 2.7v cap, but the time you have 10 in series to make a 27v cap it's a 1F cap.

I appreciate your input and post count means nothing here, only content. In my job designing EV and grid batteries, that capacitance which seems insignificant from an energy storage perspective still has a massive influence in cell behavior during transient charge/discharge rise times. Resistance and impedance of the cells and interconnects determines thermal loading. Cell inductance and bussing/interconnect geometry, and isolated case capacitance determines the radiated EMF. If I neglected these other aspects which a cell also happens to be along with an electrochemical storage device, my designs would not reflect/simulate real pack attributes and behavior needed for success. For these reasons the capacitance of the cell (as well as resistance, impedance, and inductance) are all real and critical aspects of the cell. This same extent of detail is required in high power EE where it's critical to model/measure every PCB trace's inductance, capacitance, impedance, and resistance to accurately simulate current rise times to understand how optimize switching speeds for current control and shoot-through avoidance deadband (or synchronous rectification timing if you're getting fancy with a controller).

weber wrote:
Apr 26 2018 4:05am
liveforphysics wrote:
Apr 26 2018 3:41am
That said, having 1F (or any amount of capacitive storage) does still make it a capacitor that gets recharged by an electrochemical process.
I know I've only made 2 posts to this forum and you've made a zillion. And I don't know anything about you except the posts I've read in this thread. And your handle "live for physics" makes you sound like my kinda guy. But if you insist that anything that has capacitance is a capacitor, then I'll just trust that everyone else can see the problem with this, and I won't bother arguing any further.

But I will say, my main concern with this is to reduce the suffering caused when people are induced to part with their hard earned cash on the basis of grossly inflated claims, and you're really not helping.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by farringtonj276@gmail.com » Sep 18 2018 12:16pm

This "scientist" is nothing more than a thief. He openly admits to searching for others peoples works and copies them for his videos. At first he was going this for the love of science and he would provide the paper and details on the experiments he presented on his channel. Over the last year or two this has completely changed, however the technology he is talking about has existed for years and well researched.

The electric car trip was a complete scam to get money from viewers and businesses. His directorship/ownership with other companies no making products and investors losing millions is another concern. No independent data for his battery technology? no patents? What has happened to all the people in the lab? He said he has no money yet he has just purchased a machine for £100k... Where did that money come from? Also new premises? I smell a rat.

Maybe its his business partners? or maybe its his own greed? That Gary was involved in Sun Vault as well I believe.. His background screams scammer... Word to the wise, stay well clear of these guys!

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Sep 18 2018 5:34pm

farringtonj276@gmail.com wrote:
Sep 18 2018 12:16pm
This "scientist" is nothing more than a thief. He openly admits to searching for others peoples works and copies them for his videos. .....

Maybe its his business partners? or maybe its his own greed? That Gary was involved in Sun Vault as well I believe.. His background screams scammer... Word to the wise, stay well clear of these guys!
Who are you talking about ?
You have made this identical post in two different threads about completely different individuals/companies...
Robert M Smith, and Arvio (this thread).
Whilst i agree neither of them are very credible, your critisism are equally dubious !
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by jonescg » Sep 20 2018 5:12am

But, but, I thought supercaps didn't explode or burn...?
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=69713#p69713

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by TheBeastie » Sep 22 2018 7:38am

jonescg wrote:
Sep 20 2018 5:12am
But, but, I thought supercaps didn't explode or burn...?
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=69713#p69713

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Wow.
Yeah was a great thread that one, totally destroyed the argument, including if those baloney supercap modules we pure supercap in the first place.
To me I think even the first few posts at the start of the whole thread examining the idea of even if they were real whole claim of 500,000 cycles and real-world expected lifetime vs cost doesn't make them worthwhile quite interesting.

The spectacular fire is nice icing on the cake.

I have embedded the images to give folks here a taste of that thread and hopefully get them reading it.

*um edit*, I can't get over how unwilling folks are to read a single page or even a few posts on a forum.., but ,to make it clear, even this thread proved well enough the "supercap modules" are just full of lithium cells, and the aeva forums proved the "supercap modules" are well and truly just full of lithium cells to another whole level. The aeva forums thread leave nothing to argue about.

Image

Image
Last edited by TheBeastie on Sep 30 2018 5:12am, edited 1 time in total.
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Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Consider PAS as your only throttle https://goo.gl/Kg1F8F
Fuel-Cell is the ultimate battery coupled with 4th-gen Nuclear
https://goo.gl/TcKtHs https://goo.gl/ZhFFot https://goo.gl/gfa215
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by fechter » Sep 26 2018 9:26am

I thought LTO cells don't explode and burn like that.

Must be using recalled Hoverboard batteries.
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 28 2018 4:15pm

fechter wrote:
Sep 26 2018 9:26am
I thought LTO cells don't explode and burn like that.

Must be using recalled Hoverboard batteries.
Those are super caps, not LTO's.

There's not enough in these images for me to surmise that the fire had anything to do with the super caps or not. Maybe someone created a dead short or the charge controller was defective and over charged the super caps?
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 28 2018 4:27pm

liveforphysics wrote:
Apr 26 2018 6:20am
I appreciate your input and post count means nothing here, only content.
OOH look...just bumped my post count. Yeah post counts shouldn't matter, but they do to a lot of folks.

=)
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Hillhater » Sep 28 2018 4:40pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Sep 28 2018 4:15pm
Those are super caps, not LTO's.
But you missed the point that those guys have previously claimed , and demonstrated, that their "supercaps" wont burn or explode . :roll:
So either they lied, or they are not using supercaps..
.....or actually both !
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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by Pajda » Sep 29 2018 4:31am

:lol:

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by spinningmagnets » Sep 29 2018 11:13am

I believe the capacity (range) of supercaps could easily be doubled, but...even at that amount of range per volume, chemical batteries remain the energy source of choice for ebikes, emotos, and 4'wheel EVs...

Of course, we won't see how far that can go, and what the next-gen supercaps can be used for effectively, until we try.

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Re: Supercapacitors vs batteries. Capacity.

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 29 2018 12:19pm

Capacity
Volume of stored energy

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