100amp bms battery pack
- Thread starter mark5
- Start date
Sunder
10 MW
Google?
Seriously, with no information, not many people can make good referrals. Bestech Power has been used by a few people on this forum:
http://bestechpower.com/
Ebay will have some generics you can pair with a relay to get to 100A
You might want a custom system from individual cell balancers + a controller.
Too hard to make any good recommendation based on the (lack of) information you've given.
Seriously, with no information, not many people can make good referrals. Bestech Power has been used by a few people on this forum:
http://bestechpower.com/
Ebay will have some generics you can pair with a relay to get to 100A
You might want a custom system from individual cell balancers + a controller.
Too hard to make any good recommendation based on the (lack of) information you've given.
Sunder
10 MW
Chill out dude. Are you wearing a tin hat? I'm not about to set the police onto you for building a 7500w bike.
Your intended use makes a big difference, and especially now you've clarified you want the whole battery and not just the BMS, it's even more important to ask questions.
I could just recommend you this https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/870-72v15ah-40152-lifepo4-battery-24-cells-ebike-battery-pack-battery.html
And I'm sure for the first ride, you'd be very happy. But:
1. They build it on older LiFePo4. That's fine if 99% of the riding you do is nice and gentle, with the occasional hard hill. But if you're full throttle from every light, within a few weeks, that thing is going to be sagging like an old woman's... Never mind.
2. No idea what voltage you're wanting to run your Cyclone on. Are you after top speed, or acceleration?
3. How far do you want to ride, and what style? That battery will go 12 minutes on full throttle. Probably about 80-100km per charge, depending on how you ride. Is that far enough?
There's about another 3 or 4 questions that would help people here give you good advice, but if you're not willing to answer it, just buy the above battery. (But also search for BMSbattery's reputation before you do...)
Alright, my sarcasm/humour fell flat. Not funny. But your call whether you want good advice, or just a link.
Your intended use makes a big difference, and especially now you've clarified you want the whole battery and not just the BMS, it's even more important to ask questions.
I could just recommend you this https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/870-72v15ah-40152-lifepo4-battery-24-cells-ebike-battery-pack-battery.html
And I'm sure for the first ride, you'd be very happy. But:
1. They build it on older LiFePo4. That's fine if 99% of the riding you do is nice and gentle, with the occasional hard hill. But if you're full throttle from every light, within a few weeks, that thing is going to be sagging like an old woman's... Never mind.
2. No idea what voltage you're wanting to run your Cyclone on. Are you after top speed, or acceleration?
3. How far do you want to ride, and what style? That battery will go 12 minutes on full throttle. Probably about 80-100km per charge, depending on how you ride. Is that far enough?
There's about another 3 or 4 questions that would help people here give you good advice, but if you're not willing to answer it, just buy the above battery. (But also search for BMSbattery's reputation before you do...)
Alright, my sarcasm/humour fell flat. Not funny. But your call whether you want good advice, or just a link.
Sunder
10 MW
Alright, having found the exact kit, here's my recommendations:
1. The kit takes 48-72v. The kit is geared, so there is no issue with too high a top speed as long as you know how to gear properly. So my recommendation is to use 72v, but be real careful using the 54T front with any small gear at the rear.
If you use a very high voltage on a very high gear, then bog it down up a very steep hill or with high weights, you can burn the motor out.
2. Its 100a continuous, 120a burst rated, but to cruise takes nowhere near that. If money is no object, and you're happy to just buy the best, you have two options. High rate 18650s, or hobby LiPo to build yourself.
If you're not familiar with the terms, batteries have a C rating. Thats the number of times its capacity it can deliver. So 1C means a 20Ah pack can deliver 20A. 5C means a 20Ah pack can deliver 20 x 5 = 100.
The other term you want to know is 20S5P. That means that the batter is made up of 100 cells - 20 in series to raise the voltage, and 5 in parallel to raise capacity and current capability.
Most small manufacturers pur down the "once off" rate, not the "long life" rate. So that BMS Battery piece of ... I posted probably could do 100a... maybe 3 or 4 times.
If you choose 18650, there are two types. One made for laptops and flashlights. (Very low drain, but cheap) and those made for vaping and electric cars. Many sellers advertise "genuine sony! Genuine LG!" Etc. And there's a chance they are... but they're Sony laptop cells, etc. Make sure you get confirmation they are high rate types. Many vendors lie, so run the item past a few of the experts here.
If they are good cells 20S5P would be minimum. Anything bigger than 5P would be better. Because most cells are around 3400mah, You're looking at 20Ah in one battery minimum or 2 x 14Ah would be better.
So something like this:
https://lunacycle.com/72v-triangle-panasonic-ga-17-5ah-with-luna-charger-ebike-battery/
Would be really borderline. It'd work, but you wouldn't get the most from your kit and the battery will have a shortened life. 2 of them would be perfect.
I prefer building my own packs from Hobby LiPo, because then you know what you're getting. Again, sellers over rate their packs, but divide by 4 to get the safe rating.
Multistars are rated 10C, but most people here say 3-4C is safe. I agree with 3. 4 gets a bit hot for my liking, so' you'd need around 33Ah to be safe.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/batteries/multistar-batteries.html?___store=en_us
Same deal with the S and P rating. The cheapest way would be to get 2 x 6S + 1 x 4S to make 20S. If you use the 16Ah packs, you'd need two full sets (20s2P) for best results. You will need to solder it yourself.
I am on a phone atm, so won't go into too much detail, but let me know which one takes your fancy and we can chat more.
1. The kit takes 48-72v. The kit is geared, so there is no issue with too high a top speed as long as you know how to gear properly. So my recommendation is to use 72v, but be real careful using the 54T front with any small gear at the rear.
If you use a very high voltage on a very high gear, then bog it down up a very steep hill or with high weights, you can burn the motor out.
2. Its 100a continuous, 120a burst rated, but to cruise takes nowhere near that. If money is no object, and you're happy to just buy the best, you have two options. High rate 18650s, or hobby LiPo to build yourself.
If you're not familiar with the terms, batteries have a C rating. Thats the number of times its capacity it can deliver. So 1C means a 20Ah pack can deliver 20A. 5C means a 20Ah pack can deliver 20 x 5 = 100.
The other term you want to know is 20S5P. That means that the batter is made up of 100 cells - 20 in series to raise the voltage, and 5 in parallel to raise capacity and current capability.
Most small manufacturers pur down the "once off" rate, not the "long life" rate. So that BMS Battery piece of ... I posted probably could do 100a... maybe 3 or 4 times.
If you choose 18650, there are two types. One made for laptops and flashlights. (Very low drain, but cheap) and those made for vaping and electric cars. Many sellers advertise "genuine sony! Genuine LG!" Etc. And there's a chance they are... but they're Sony laptop cells, etc. Make sure you get confirmation they are high rate types. Many vendors lie, so run the item past a few of the experts here.
If they are good cells 20S5P would be minimum. Anything bigger than 5P would be better. Because most cells are around 3400mah, You're looking at 20Ah in one battery minimum or 2 x 14Ah would be better.
So something like this:
https://lunacycle.com/72v-triangle-panasonic-ga-17-5ah-with-luna-charger-ebike-battery/
Would be really borderline. It'd work, but you wouldn't get the most from your kit and the battery will have a shortened life. 2 of them would be perfect.
I prefer building my own packs from Hobby LiPo, because then you know what you're getting. Again, sellers over rate their packs, but divide by 4 to get the safe rating.
Multistars are rated 10C, but most people here say 3-4C is safe. I agree with 3. 4 gets a bit hot for my liking, so' you'd need around 33Ah to be safe.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/batteries/multistar-batteries.html?___store=en_us
Same deal with the S and P rating. The cheapest way would be to get 2 x 6S + 1 x 4S to make 20S. If you use the 16Ah packs, you'd need two full sets (20s2P) for best results. You will need to solder it yourself.
I am on a phone atm, so won't go into too much detail, but let me know which one takes your fancy and we can chat more.
Sunder
10 MW
Definitely soldering, not spot welding. Generally 18650s are spot welded, so if you don't have a spot welder, you probably need one if 18650s are your preference (or buy pre-built).
Hobbyking Prismatic cells look like this:
Once they are assembled into batteries, you fold the tabs onto each other and solder them like so:
Why I solder is that rather than have a 6S+6S+4S which can be difficult to manage and balance I remove all the main leads and balancing leads, and make a genuine 20S battery, with the right loom to fit my BMS. Fewer joins = fewer things to break.
Be aware there are big differences in Mid-drive chain motors like the Cyclone, and hub motors like the Crystalyte Crown in terms of versatility and reliability. Hub motors are more reliable, and as long as the terrain you're riding is fairly consistent and you design for that terrain. Then they're easy maintenance, high performance. Mid-drives are the go anywhere, adaptable for anything motor, but will require care both in terms of use and maintenance.
7.5kw through a shifting chain scares me to be honest. There's a reason why true motorcycles shift through an internal gearbox, and a fixed chain.
Hobbyking Prismatic cells look like this:
Once they are assembled into batteries, you fold the tabs onto each other and solder them like so:
Why I solder is that rather than have a 6S+6S+4S which can be difficult to manage and balance I remove all the main leads and balancing leads, and make a genuine 20S battery, with the right loom to fit my BMS. Fewer joins = fewer things to break.
Be aware there are big differences in Mid-drive chain motors like the Cyclone, and hub motors like the Crystalyte Crown in terms of versatility and reliability. Hub motors are more reliable, and as long as the terrain you're riding is fairly consistent and you design for that terrain. Then they're easy maintenance, high performance. Mid-drives are the go anywhere, adaptable for anything motor, but will require care both in terms of use and maintenance.
7.5kw through a shifting chain scares me to be honest. There's a reason why true motorcycles shift through an internal gearbox, and a fixed chain.
ridethelightning
1 MW
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2013
- Messages
- 2,010
id use the qs 205 v3. good quality and probably has more torque because of extra copper fill.
id forget about mtb rims on the rear atleast. i run 18"*1.4"moto rim with hydenau k40 on my cargo bike. similar diameter to 24" mtb, i think 23" i have a 24mtb on front with a maxxis hookworm dh tyre.
keeps the cargo weight down low and can take the abuse of hitting a pothole with 100kg payload at speed :wink:
id even consider a 17" rear , it will be dead easy to pick up tyres for as its the same as a postie bike .
id say forget the cyclone, it will sound like a whipper snipper, and wont really acheive anything.
my cargo bike pack is 22s12p samsung 30q, gets some serious range and can get the bike moving @ ~95kph much faster than is was originally deigned for, so only on a clear straight stretch 8)
id forget about mtb rims on the rear atleast. i run 18"*1.4"moto rim with hydenau k40 on my cargo bike. similar diameter to 24" mtb, i think 23" i have a 24mtb on front with a maxxis hookworm dh tyre.
keeps the cargo weight down low and can take the abuse of hitting a pothole with 100kg payload at speed :wink:
id even consider a 17" rear , it will be dead easy to pick up tyres for as its the same as a postie bike .
id say forget the cyclone, it will sound like a whipper snipper, and wont really acheive anything.
my cargo bike pack is 22s12p samsung 30q, gets some serious range and can get the bike moving @ ~95kph much faster than is was originally deigned for, so only on a clear straight stretch 8)
Sunder
10 MW
quantumcloud509 said:
Okay, will keep it simpler, assuming that you want a 12S pack instead of a 20S pack.
Since 12S packs are rare and expensive, we want to build it out of a 6S + 6S.
Option one is that you get a series connector like this:
It basically takes the negative of one battery, and connects it to the positive of the next, then takes the most positive and most negative of the whole setup, and you get a voltage equal to the sum of the two batteries. In this case, let's call it 25.2v + 25.2v = 50.4v battery
However, when it comes time to charging, the battery has 2 x JST-6S ports, so you will have effectively two batteries that aren't talking to each other or the charger. Let's say the charger forces 50.4v down the joint plug. You would hope both batteries were 25.2 But due to variations in manufacturing and environment, it's possible that the voltages start drifting. It could be one is 25.1, and the other 25.3. Not a big problem. But what happens if over time, one is 24.0 and the other 26.4? One will be under capacity, and the other being damaged from over charge. Let it go long enough and you have a nice puffy battery at best, and a fireball at worst.
Within each 6S, the balancer will make sure the cells is balanced, but between batteries, the voltages can vary.
You can get around this by charging each battery as 6S instead of the two batteries as 12S, but that's just annoying.
All that to explain why I prefer 20S instead of 6S+6S+4S... Here we go.
Now, instead of using that serial Y connector, I directly join the most positive cell of the first battery to the most negative cell of the second battery. A few less joins to worry about, and less resistance.
I also remove the 2 x JST-6S, and replace it with 1 x JST-12S and by a BMS that can monitor all 12 Cells. This way, if there's any unbalance, the BMS can know about it, and balance the whole thing properly.
Result? Pretty much a set and forget system (as long as you can trust your equipment), no looms or harnesses, no need to take anything apart to charge, etc.
It's really not as difficult as I make it sound. I don't know how to explain it better without actually doing it and showing you a video, and I don't have any plans to make new batteries in the near future. Sorry.
quantumcloud509 said:
I'm not against mid-drives, and in fact I'm intending to build one eventually. But I want to do mine with a belt drive and an internally geared hub. Reduce some of the maintenance required and increase safety. Unfortunately belt drives need specific frames, so I need to pick my donor bike carefully.
markz
100 TW
110% Reliable
Justin over at www.ebikes.ca has batteries, Vancouver Canada.
EM3EV, China
Unit Pack Power is good to deal with. https://unitpackpower.aliexpress.com/store/group/Triangle-battery/1178407_510603083.html?origin=n&SortType=price_asc&g=y&SearchText=30A
OSN Power is in the same boat as Unit Pack Power - http://www.osnpower.com/pddetaildate/profirstlist/20180317_3210497_1.html
Another option is going to Home Depot and buying batteries there and figuring out how to connect them, but your going 72V so might not be an option then. Plus you want 1500-2000Wh.
Yet another option with a learning curve - Going to NKON at ru.nkon.nl buying suitable 18650 batteries, getting them to tab weld them for you for an extra 0.40 euro's then you go to Harbor Freight, buy yourself a soldering iron and 60/40 solder, alcohol from drug store, horse hair brush from Radio Shack, and some home wiring from Home Depot, a 2 conductor 10awg that has a 3rd 12awg grounding wire. Use 12awg for parallel, 10awg for series. Oopps forgot about wire strippers, Harbor Freight/Radio Shack. One factor to consider, Battery Management System. Easy Bestech Power! Then what charger to buy, do not skimp on this, dont buy a wimpy rc charger thats 80W or something lame, if anything buy $150+ iCharger, some, like me go Meanwell PSU for bulk.
LiPo's - Well you were warned.
I have no clue about Luna's battery packs, he is in California.
BMS Battery - been mentioned
Thats all thats on my mind.
Justin over at www.ebikes.ca has batteries, Vancouver Canada.
EM3EV, China
Unit Pack Power is good to deal with. https://unitpackpower.aliexpress.com/store/group/Triangle-battery/1178407_510603083.html?origin=n&SortType=price_asc&g=y&SearchText=30A
OSN Power is in the same boat as Unit Pack Power - http://www.osnpower.com/pddetaildate/profirstlist/20180317_3210497_1.html
Another option is going to Home Depot and buying batteries there and figuring out how to connect them, but your going 72V so might not be an option then. Plus you want 1500-2000Wh.
Yet another option with a learning curve - Going to NKON at ru.nkon.nl buying suitable 18650 batteries, getting them to tab weld them for you for an extra 0.40 euro's then you go to Harbor Freight, buy yourself a soldering iron and 60/40 solder, alcohol from drug store, horse hair brush from Radio Shack, and some home wiring from Home Depot, a 2 conductor 10awg that has a 3rd 12awg grounding wire. Use 12awg for parallel, 10awg for series. Oopps forgot about wire strippers, Harbor Freight/Radio Shack. One factor to consider, Battery Management System. Easy Bestech Power! Then what charger to buy, do not skimp on this, dont buy a wimpy rc charger thats 80W or something lame, if anything buy $150+ iCharger, some, like me go Meanwell PSU for bulk.
LiPo's - Well you were warned.
I have no clue about Luna's battery packs, he is in California.
BMS Battery - been mentioned
Thats all thats on my mind.
Sunder
10 MW
markz said:
I'll back both EM3EV and OSN. Bought from them both, and their kit and service is really high quality (In fact, when I had a look at my Phaserunner and CycleAnalyst, I decided to mention them in my signature!). That's important to me now, because I used to think that if it broke, I could just get another one and I'd still be ahead price wise... But found out it's not always that simple. But that's another whole story.
Never tried Unit Pack Power or Luna. In fact never heard of Unit Pack Power. Luna seems to get about 90% good reviews on the forum, but the 10% who don't, seem to really feel screwed over. Make of it what you will. Every retailer has to deal with unreasonable customers, but sometimes good retailers can also dig their heels in even when it's their fault. Really can't tell.
quantumcloud509 said:
I'm running a pair of 19" x 1.4 moto rims on my Qulbix Q76R. I got the rims in 36 hole I believe the bike you want to look it up under as cross reference is a Yamaha TTR. Then for the rear I had Buchanans Spokes in CA make up custom spokes to lace to rim. Very heavy duty.
For the front I'm running a Hope Pro4 hub with custom bicycle spokes laced to same rim.
For tires I have Shinko trials bike tires. Cheap, big contact patch and will last forever.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=90236&p=1320053#p1320053
I have a build thread but haven't updated it in awhile. Just getting back into it.
Sunder said:quantumcloud509 said:
Okay, will keep it simpler, assuming that you want a 12S pack instead of a 20S pack.
Since 12S packs are rare and expensive, we want to build it out of a 6S + 6S.
Option one is that you get a series connector like this:
It basically takes the negative of one battery, and connects it to the positive of the next, then takes the most positive and most negative of the whole setup, and you get a voltage equal to the sum of the two batteries. In this case, let's call it 25.2v + 25.2v = 50.4v battery
However, when it comes time to charging, the battery has 2 x JST-6S ports, so you will have effectively two batteries that aren't talking to each other or the charger. Let's say the charger forces 50.4v down the joint plug. You would hope both batteries were 25.2 But due to variations in manufacturing and environment, it's possible that the voltages start drifting. It could be one is 25.1, and the other 25.3. Not a big problem. But what happens if over time, one is 24.0 and the other 26.4? One will be under capacity, and the other being damaged from over charge. Let it go long enough and you have a nice puffy battery at best, and a fireball at worst.
Within each 6S, the balancer will make sure the cells is balanced, but between batteries, the voltages can vary.
You can get around this by charging each battery as 6S instead of the two batteries as 12S, but that's just annoying.
All that to explain why I prefer 20S instead of 6S+6S+4S... Here we go.
Now, instead of using that serial Y connector, I directly join the most positive cell of the first battery to the most negative cell of the second battery. A few less joins to worry about, and less resistance.
I also remove the 2 x JST-6S, and replace it with 1 x JST-12S and by a BMS that can monitor all 12 Cells. This way, if there's any unbalance, the BMS can know about it, and balance the whole thing properly.
Result? Pretty much a set and forget system (as long as you can trust your equipment), no looms or harnesses, no need to take anything apart to charge, etc.
It's really not as difficult as I make it sound. I don't know how to explain it better without actually doing it and showing you a video, and I don't have any plans to make new batteries in the near future. Sorry.
quantumcloud509 said:
I'm not against mid-drives, and in fact I'm intending to build one eventually. But I want to do mine with a belt drive and an internally geared hub. Reduce some of the maintenance required and increase safety. Unfortunately belt drives need specific frames, so I need to pick my donor bike carefully.
Topic OP said:
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