Please Help!!!!

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » Apr 29 2018 6:42am

Hi,

Well where to start.
I bought two 48v 20amp batterys couple a weeks ago. All perfect. But then I seen a video on youtube where you can run a light off your charger input.
Well what did I do only go and try to check the volt output from it with my multimeter and BANG :oops:
Damn it anyways. I f'd it up. after paying over 850euro for the two batterys.
Well I tried to charge it but it won't charge. The part you plug the charger was all black. so I cut it off. I took off the shrink wrap but its got a plastic cover and very well wrapped so I went no further. It has a sticker it says LION KING on it.
The wires are all good back to the battery. I'm only getting a reading of 33.3v form the charger input, and 45.6v from the battery output.
What do you guys think I might have done burned out the bms or something else.
I am gutted. :( :( :(

I hope you's can help me guys, thanks
No guts No Glory

User avatar
ridethelightning   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1778
Joined: Jul 21 2013 9:48pm

Re: Help

Post by ridethelightning » Apr 29 2018 7:40am

hmm, sounds like you just shorted the pins on the plug and charred the crap out of it.
you will perhaps just need to replace said plug with some soldering, making sure you have polarity right and back yr in buisness.
if you cant find the replacement plug, you might need to use another type rated for same current, on both charger and battery sides
pics will help us let you know what to do :wink:

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Help

Post by rockypro1 » Apr 29 2018 11:58am

ridethelightning wrote:
Apr 29 2018 7:40am
hmm, sounds like you just shorted the pins on the plug and charred the crap out of it.
you will perhaps just need to replace said plug with some soldering, making sure you have polarity right and back yr in buisness.
if you cant find the replacement plug, you might need to use another type rated for same current, on both charger and battery sides
pics will help us let you know what to do :wink:
Yeah the connection was badly charred. But I tried a new connection and it still won't charge.
Don't know if to open it up or not, as I've never opened an e battery before.

Here's the pictures of my new batteries. As I said I took off the outer shrink wrap. I'm Afraid to take off inner cover.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
No guts No Glory

User avatar
Marin   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 355
Joined: May 20 2015 4:51pm
Location: BC, Canada

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by Marin » Apr 29 2018 1:35pm

Having done this myself, more than once, I can feel your pain but in my case I never ruined anything except my pride.

First off I hate those barrel type charge connectors and chop them off ( carefully) with glee any chance I get and replace with xlr connectors that I like, but they are big.

First rule to never break,...don't touch black and red together, + and -, ever.... really don't do it even for fun,

The first time I was changing the charge plug and shorted it out the fix was just to repair connector and plug into charger and charger reset bms,

Second time, (apparently not a quick learner), It happens really fast you know, this bms had a reset button that had to be pressed to turn it back on after a short. I needed to access bms, locate button, which was look through holes in heat sink plate of bms to locate button and press, my vendor alerted me to button and location to access it,
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
Giant Yukon bbs02
Kona Abra Cadabra bbshd
Wildfire fat bike bbshd

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » Apr 29 2018 2:23pm

Marin wrote:
Apr 29 2018 1:35pm
Having done this myself, more than once, I can feel your pain but in my case I never ruined anything except my pride.

First off I hate those barrel type charge connectors and chop them off ( carefully) with glee any chance I get and replace with xlr connectors that I like, but they are big.

First rule to never break,...don't touch black and red together, + and -, ever.... really don't do it even for fun,

The first time I was changing the charge plug and shorted it out the fix was just to repair connector and plug into charger and charger reset bms,

Second time, (apparently not a quick learner), It happens really fast you know, this bms had a reset button that had to be pressed to turn it back on after a short. I needed to access bms, locate button, which was look through holes in heat sink plate of bms to locate button and press, my vendor alerted me to button and location to access it,
Yeah a lesson to be learned. Its a very bad feeling when you've done it.
Well I took the plunge and opened it up.
I can see that the ends of the wires on the batteries are all burned. But the connection to the BMS is all fine. Thank goodness for that.
That's why I'm getting such a low voltage reading for the charge input.
I was thinking of bring it to the shop were they fix pc's, laptops phones do you's think they would be up for the job.

Here's the pictures of the battery connections, you can see where its black burned at the wire on the batteries.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
No guts No Glory

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6141
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by markz » Apr 29 2018 2:41pm

The good news is they are 18650 cans, not pouches. Pouches need to be compressed a bit. So you can open up the shrink wrapping and inspect if you so wish, but you need to protect them when you wrap them back up. I use Duct Tape and 1/8" particle board.

Didnt read the entire thread, but my first thought was your packs maybe pouches and your hesitation to open them up would be right.

Not sure whats wrong but maybe the bms is broken, or you messed up the charger if you were using it when that happened. I would get on finding out what the problem is. First see where the pack sits right now.

Buy a Digital Multimeter right now, measure the battery itself. You dont want them to sit at minimum voltage for long, nor max voltage.

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » Apr 29 2018 5:49pm

markz wrote:
Apr 29 2018 2:41pm
The good news is they are 18650 cans, not pouches. Pouches need to be compressed a bit. So you can open up the shrink wrapping and inspect if you so wish, but you need to protect them when you wrap them back up. I use Duct Tape and 1/8" particle board.

Didnt read the entire thread, but my first thought was your packs maybe pouches and your hesitation to open them up would be right.

Not sure whats wrong but maybe the bms is broken, or you messed up the charger if you were using it when that happened. I would get on finding out what the problem is. First see where the pack sits right now.

Buy a Digital Multimeter right now, measure the battery itself. You dont want them to sit at minimum voltage for long, nor max voltage.
No wasn't using the charger at the time. I was checking the voltage from the charger input on the battery as I seen a video saying you can run a light from it. What I did was checking it with my volt meter and it made a load bang and burned the connection.
But I've since cut off the connector it was burned black but the wires are all good.
I am getting a reading of 45.6 volts from the output and 33.3 from the charger input.
I cleaned all the wires that are soldered to the batteries and they are all good.
You could be right the bms might be a goner. How do I check this? And if its broke can I get the same one again.

Picture's of where I cleaned the soldered wires to the battery.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
No guts No Glory

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8356
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by 999zip999 » Apr 29 2018 9:13pm

So 13series of parallel groups. Start at the neg end or #1 check voltage and write down on paper then go to #2 write down.
1. 3.65v
2. 3.91 v
3. 4.10v



13. Xxx voltage.
Let us know the state of charge if your battery. It looks like a benign block of batteries it is not it's full of intense energy that can cause a fire be careful no toy. A little 9v battery can start a fire what can a 54v battery do ?

kdog   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 503
Joined: Feb 02 2014 9:22pm
Location: hobart, tasmania

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by kdog » Apr 30 2018 6:46am

Jeez what a poorly constructed battery.... 850eu :roll:
Sorry to say it, but it'd pay to fix it up a bit while you've got it open.
I'd chuck some insulation under those sense wires, glue the cells together so they can't move, add at least two more series connections per parallel group to spread the power across the cells (more) evenly and prevent heat in those two bits of nickel, and I'd also parallel some extra power outputs to the existing ones, again to help spread the load.
Thatd go a long way to ensuring your battery lasts as long as it can.

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12926
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by fechter » Apr 30 2018 9:09am

The problem will be with the BMS. The charge control circuit is open, since you aren't seeing pack voltage on the charge input. Sometimes unplugging the BMS (as I see in the picutre) and plugging it back in might reset things. If you still don't see full pack voltage on the charge wires, then the BMS is likely toast and needs to be replaced or repaired. The BMS may actually be repairable if it just blew a trace.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » Apr 30 2018 5:44pm

999zip999 wrote:
Apr 29 2018 9:13pm
So 13series of parallel groups. Start at the neg end or #1 check voltage and write down on paper then go to #2 write down.
1. 3.65v
2. 3.91 v
3. 4.10v



13. Xxx voltage.
Let us know the state of charge if your battery. It looks like a benign block of batteries it is not it's full of intense energy that can cause a fire be careful no toy. A little 9v battery can start a fire what can a 54v battery do ?
I looked at some videos on youtube on how to do this so I'll give it a try in the morning. Your scaring me about it been a fire hazard. :shock:
No guts No Glory

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » Apr 30 2018 5:49pm

kdog wrote:
Apr 30 2018 6:46am
Jeez what a poorly constructed battery.... 850eu :roll:
Sorry to say it, but it'd pay to fix it up a bit while you've got it open.
I'd chuck some insulation under those sense wires, glue the cells together so they can't move, add at least two more series connections per parallel group to spread the power across the cells (more) evenly and prevent heat in those two bits of nickel, and I'd also parallel some extra power outputs to the existing ones, again to help spread the load.
Thatd go a long way to ensuring your battery lasts as long as it can.
No it was 850 euro for two batteries. I know what your saying about upgrading the battery, but I wouldn't have a clue how to do this.
But thanks for helping me to get it to work better. cheers.
No guts No Glory

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » Apr 30 2018 5:52pm

fechter wrote:
Apr 30 2018 9:09am
The problem will be with the BMS. The charge control circuit is open, since you aren't seeing pack voltage on the charge input. Sometimes unplugging the BMS (as I see in the picutre) and plugging it back in might reset things. If you still don't see full pack voltage on the charge wires, then the BMS is likely toast and needs to be replaced or repaired. The BMS may actually be repairable if it just blew a trace.
Hi
Yeah I plugged it back in and still the same, How do I check the bms. And were do I get one for this, dose it have to be the very same?
thanks Oh yeah whats a trace?
No guts No Glory

User avatar
ridethelightning   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1778
Joined: Jul 21 2013 9:48pm

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by ridethelightning » May 01 2018 1:06am

battery supports, supower battery.

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12926
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by fechter » May 01 2018 8:18am

rockypro1 wrote:
Apr 30 2018 5:52pm
Hi
Yeah I plugged it back in and still the same, How do I check the bms. And were do I get one for this, dose it have to be the very same?
thanks Oh yeah whats a trace?
You want to inspect the circuit board on the bottom. Traces are the copper lines printed on the circuit board. It's possible one of them burned up, which should be pretty obvious when you see it. Just look for anything burnt up.

You may need to inspect between the metal plate and the board. To do this, I really recommend disconnecting the main red wire going to the pack first to make sure nothing can short out. If there is a separate black wire for the charger input, you want to try tracing the path it takes on the board.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » May 03 2018 5:28pm

Hi,

I've not been near the battery since been on shift work.

I'm afraid to test the wire's from the batteries, with the multi meter.
If I do try to test them what do I do? is it start at the black wire two by two and move all the way to the red wire? on the block I plug out from the bms.

There is a guy that works in maintenance where I work. He dose all electrical work.

Do you's think he would be up for the job?

(Or do I need an Auto Electrician?)

Thank you all so far for your help I'm very grateful to ya's.
No guts No Glory

User avatar
flippy   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 851
Joined: Aug 12 2015 3:07pm

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by flippy » May 04 2018 11:16am

any half-decent electrican can figure this out.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » May 05 2018 6:50am

flippy wrote:
May 04 2018 11:16am
any half-decent electrican can figure this out.
That makes it a lot easier for me. Thank you.
No guts No Glory

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » May 05 2018 6:54am

Just in case I need new bms, Can anyone tell me what one I need to get. Or a link to one would be great.
Thanks
No guts No Glory

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » May 05 2018 2:05pm

999zip999 wrote:
Apr 29 2018 9:13pm
So 13series of parallel groups. Start at the neg end or #1 check voltage and write down on paper then go to #2 write down.
1. 3.65v
2. 3.91 v
3. 4.10v



13. Xxx voltage.
Let us know the state of charge if your battery. It looks like a benign block of batteries it is not it's full of intense energy that can cause a fire be careful no toy. A little 9v battery can start a fire what can a 54v battery do ?
Well I done the test and the reading I got was 3.5v from start of neg to live on other end. Is this normal?

I took photos of the inside of the bms hope you's can see but there is some sort of a scrape or something in there. There is a L letter just before it. not sure if this is the problem.
Image
Image
Image
No guts No Glory

User avatar
flippy   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 851
Joined: Aug 12 2015 3:07pm

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by flippy » May 05 2018 3:34pm

that looks to be on purpose. usually there is a huge skid mark if there is a big short. this is clean.

thou shall check voltages.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8356
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by 999zip999 » May 05 2018 3:46pm

Yiu should write the voltages down on paper. So you can compare the next time you checked the voltages all 13 written on a piece of paper. I'm just trying to tell you there's a lot of stored energy in that benign looking box of battery cells.

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » May 05 2018 5:46pm

flippy wrote:
May 05 2018 3:34pm
that looks to be on purpose. usually there is a huge skid mark if there is a big short. this is clean.

thou shall check voltages.
Its a bit strange alright. maybe I hit it without knowing, when I was opening it, Would this stop it from working?
No guts No Glory

User avatar
rockypro1   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Jan 20 2018 10:48am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by rockypro1 » May 05 2018 5:47pm

999zip999 wrote:
May 05 2018 3:46pm
Yiu should write the voltages down on paper. So you can compare the next time you checked the voltages all 13 written on a piece of paper. I'm just trying to tell you there's a lot of stored energy in that benign looking box of battery cells.
Yeah have them wrote down, 3.5 all the way across. Is this safe?
No guts No Glory

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8356
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Please Help!!!!

Post by 999zip999 » May 05 2018 6:49pm

Yes if ALL are above 3.5v. Yes. Low voltage or zero is closer to 2.8v as zero. It depends on the cell I wouldn't go below 3.0v ever. It when you go lvc and one string bottoms out first because of lower capacity other strings may be filled up to the top as far as water in the glass but when one runs out of capacity the whole battery is not 13s anymore . Write it down helps you more than it helps me.

Post Reply