Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 12 2018 11:18pm

So I've been having problems with my BMS low voltage protection kicking in too soon, and I the pack on the charger. The charger did it's thing and all 16 leds where on. Then the strange thing started to happen. They kept flashing on and off, and doing the night righter things, where, they would light up in sequence. The voltage coming from the Charging port was 56.6 volts, give or take 1/10th of a volt, but the voltage from the discharging cable was not the same, and the BMS would not allow power to go to the kit.

The voltage very slowly climbed upwards, until it matched the same Voltage on the Charging port. Once they matched, the lights on the BMS turned off and stayed off. From there, the pack voltage slowly stablized.

I've never had any pack do this before, and I don't know why it did this, or if it has done it before. I know I've done partial charges and I've been able to use the bike right away.
Last edited by adamsavage79 on May 13 2018 10:50pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by amberwolf » May 12 2018 11:33pm

If this is about one of the same packs you previously posted issues with, I recommend asking a moderator (name in green) or admin (name in red) to merge this thread with whichever one it is from:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=94227

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=93456

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=93042

so that the existing info and this new info can be together and maybe help someone help you figure out whats wrong.


If you measured the cell voltages at that point and they were all the same, and not having some higher or lower, then the BMS is probably defective and needs to be replaced.

If the cells voltages were not all the same, you should list them all here in order from most negative ot most positive, to see if any are so far out of balance that they could be causing the BMS to shutdown output.

If you measure them both at the cell itself, and at the BMS board balance wire connection, then it will also show you if there are broken balance wires.

If you didnt measure the voltages, no way to know if the BMS is just doing its job, preventing a low cell from going even lower and getting damaged by discharge.

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 12 2018 11:48pm

I measured the cells just now, and they are all the same. They all read 3.5 Volts. This seems to point to a defective BMS.

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by amberwolf » May 13 2018 12:19am

Wherever possible, it is helpful if you give complete info on each pack youre troubleshooting. I assume that by not saying its one of the existing threads listed above youre implying its another different failed pack, so none of the previous thread info would apply here. So you shoudl say which kind of pack / what chemistry, how many series cells, etc., so we can take the data you provide and give relevant useful answers without as many guesses and assumptions. ;)

On to the guesses and assumptions:

If the 3.5v is the same at both BMS end of the wires, and at the cells, then the connections are good.

If 3.5v is a *good* voltage, then that means this must be a LiFePO4 pack, as 3.2v would be full for those cells, and they can read anywhere between 3.2 and 3.65v at end of charge, depending on age/condition. So the BMS shouldnt be shutting off the output.

If its not a LiFePO4 pack but still lithium, then 3.5V isnt low enough to trigger BMS shutoff, so again, it shouldnt be shutting otuput off. But that is less than half full, closer to empty depending on the actual cell type.

Either way, it implies a problem with the BMS itself.

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 13 2018 1:44am

Right! This is the same battery I was having problems with before, and I've asked for it to be merged with another thread. The pack is a Ping Battery pack. It's 48v, 15Ah LiFePO4.

The 3.5v reading is basically a full charge. I did not get a reading when the BMS undervoltage protection was kicking in. Next time it does it, I will be sure to get a reading of the cells.

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 13 2018 3:11pm

999zip999 wrote:
May 13 2018 1:26pm
if your battery is cutting out early it because a group of cells is you need to balance the pack hitting lvc before the others. you could leave it on the charger for a day or more and let the bms balance the pack over a very long time on the charger. yes after the light turns green. Or you can measure all 16 cells and write down on paper. if a couple high cells you can drain with a car brake blub. or if a low cell you can charge just one cell. Many threads on how to balance a Ping battery here on E.S.
I didn't know my BMS could do that. I will have to do that, and simply use my road bike for a couple days. When I checked the voltage of the cells though, after the charge. They where all the same voltage.

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by 999zip999 » May 13 2018 3:46pm

You must know state of charge. So measure and write down in this order starting with the negative end as number one
1. 3.50v
2. 3.44v
3. 2.85v

16. Xxx volt
Battery total voltage. Xxx volts
Charger voltage. Xxx volts
Post in this thread and will see the health of your battery.

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 13 2018 4:52pm

999zip999 wrote:
May 13 2018 3:46pm
You must know state of charge. So measure and write down in this order starting with the negative end as number one
1. 3.50v
2. 3.44v
3. 2.85v

16. Xxx volt
Battery total voltage. Xxx volts
Charger voltage. Xxx volts
Post in this thread and will see the health of your battery.
Battery cells 1-16, read 3.50v each.

Battery Total Voltage is current @ 55.6 Volts, (was around 57.6 right after I unpluged it from from charger, but has sense settled)
Charger is DC 59.5V
Charger Model: KP4805AL

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by 999zip999 » May 13 2018 6:00pm

How old ?

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 13 2018 6:01pm

999zip999 wrote:
May 13 2018 6:00pm
How old ?
3 years old.

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by 999zip999 » May 13 2018 10:40pm

This is s Ping 48v 15ah ?

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Re: Odd Battery behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 13 2018 10:49pm

999zip999 wrote:
May 13 2018 10:40pm
This is s Ping 48v 15ah ?
Correct.

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by 999zip999 » May 13 2018 11:01pm

Best to leave on charger over night or longer. What is your controller amp draw and what motor. Where do you live is your ride flat or do you have a lot of hills. ?

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 13 2018 11:05pm

999zip999 wrote:
May 13 2018 11:01pm
Best to leave on charger over night or longer. What is your controller amp draw and what motor. Where do you live is your ride flat or do you have a lot of hills. ?
Motor is a Golden Motor, Black Pie 5 Vector.

Controller:
Vector Sinewave Controller
24v/36v/48v Multi voltage
Max 25a Continuous power

It's mostly flat where I live. There isn't very many hills. The hills I do come across are not very big.

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by 999zip999 » May 14 2018 12:57am

That combo is close to the battery limit if ping v2.5 .How did you check each cell voltage ?

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 16 2018 11:49pm

Per the request of Ping. I put my black probe from meter, on the "B" spot and measured each pin on the white female connector. Picture attached for reference.

Voltage Readings from pins 1-16, starting from LEFT to RIGHT:

3.45v

6.97v

10.45v

13.96v

17.43v

20.09v

24.9v

27.9v

31.3v

34.9v

38.4v

41.9v

45.4v

48.8v

52.4v

55.8v

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by 999zip999 » May 17 2018 2:59pm

Mush.
1. 3.45v
2. 3.52v
3. 3.54v


16. Xxx volt
If you can do this will can flash read your problem

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 17 2018 3:53pm

999zip999 wrote:
May 17 2018 2:59pm
Mush.
1. 3.45v
2. 3.52v
3. 3.54v


16. Xxx volt
If you can do this will can flash read your problem
Mush ??? You want it down to the 1/10th of volt ? I'm completely lost, to what you are trying to say...

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by e-beach » May 17 2018 4:24pm

They want you to check each cell individually without adding voltage from other cells.

Put your battery on the charger for at least 24 hours and then do this:
Measure each cell individually.

Then list the voltages like this:
1 - X.XXv
2 - X.XXv
3 - X.XXv

Etc, until you list all your cells.

If you can't get to every cell, do it from your BMS by putting your black probe on the black balance wire, (that's the small black wire) and the the red probe to the wire next to the black balance wire.

This way you have metered cell 1.

Next, move both probes to the wires next to them. You will use your black probe to meter the wire just next to the black wire, and the red probe to meter the next wire next in line.

Now you have metered cell 2.

Keep keep moving the probes one wire over until you measure all cells.

Once you have done, install the Ping battery on your bike and go on a long ride, until you get lvc issues again.
Then, before you charge it, measure each battery individually again to see if you have any cells that are much lower then the others.

By doing what I have described, you will see if your pack is staying in a balanced range or if one or more cells are bad.

:D

BTW, I was under the impression that LiFePO4 cells were fully charged at 3.65v. 3.5v sounds low to me.
Favorite Quote: "This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." --- Chris Erskine

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 17 2018 6:01pm

e-beach wrote:
May 17 2018 4:24pm
They want you to check each cell individually without adding voltage from other cells.

If you can't get to every cell, do it from your BMS by putting your black probe on the black balance wire, (that's the small black wire) and the the red probe to the wire next to the black balance wire.

This way you have metered cell 1.

Next, move both probes to the wires next to them. You will use your black probe to meter the wire just next to the black wire, and the red probe to meter the next wire next in line.

I've done both ways. I checked each cell, and they all have the exact reading. As for the BMS, I did that as well. I was not adding the cell voltage. What you see is what each pin was giving me.

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by e-beach » May 17 2018 8:33pm

Then you didn't move the negative probe so we got numbers that are added up. We are not going to do your math for your. We need it as:

1 - 3.xx
2 - 3.xx
3 - 3.xx

and so on.

What we got was each cell added to the rest. We can't help you when you do that.

Have you left your battery on the charger for 24 hours, checked the voltage for each cell, then gone on a long ride to lvc (make sure you are near home when it happens) and then checked each cell for voltage?

:D
Favorite Quote: "This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." --- Chris Erskine

Current build: Liahona w/ cheap front suspension and suspension seat post. Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front hub motor. 15ah Headway triangle mounted pack. Tronsung 30 amp,

Previous Build:1992 Trek Antelope 800 - Bone Crusher (no suspension) - Yescomusa 800 watt 36 volt front wheel kit. Don't do it! Get suspension!!!

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 17 2018 8:41pm

e-beach wrote:
May 17 2018 8:33pm
Then you didn't move the negative probe so we got numbers that are added up. We are not going to do your math for your. We need it as:

1 - 3.xx
2 - 3.xx
3 - 3.xx

and so on.

What we got was each cell added to the rest. We can't help you when you do that.

Have you left your battery on the charger for 24 hours, checked the voltage for each cell, then gone on a long ride to lvc (make sure you are near home when it happens) and then checked each cell for voltage?

:D
I checked EACH pin, one at a time.. I will bloody record myself, next time doing it.. so you can see for yourself. I wrote down the voltage for pin 1, moved on to pin 2, wrote down the number displayed, moved on to pin 3 and so on..There was no adding anything to anything. I will do it again, and measure without the black probe touching anything and see if I get the same result.. The black probe was where it was supposed to be, so I assumed I was getting the proper reading. I did think it was odd, how the voltage kept getting higher though.

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by e-beach » May 17 2018 8:44pm

adamsavage79 wrote:
May 17 2018 8:41pm
e-beach wrote:
May 17 2018 8:33pm
Then you didn't move the negative probe so we got numbers that are added up. We are not going to do your math for your. We need it as:

1 - 3.xx
2 - 3.xx
3 - 3.xx

and so on.

What we got was each cell added to the rest. We can't help you when you do that.

Have you left your battery on the charger for 24 hours, checked the voltage for each cell, then gone on a long ride to lvc (make sure you are near home when it happens) and then checked each cell for voltage?

:D
I checked EACH pin, one at a time.. I will bloody record myself, next time doing it.. so you can see for yourself. I wrote down the voltage for pin 1, moved on to pin 2, wrote down the number displayed, moved on to pin 3 and so on..There was no adding anything to anything. I will do it again, and measure without the black probe touching anything and see if I get the same result.. The black probe was where it was supposed to be, so I assumed I was getting the proper reading. I did think it was odd, how the voltage kept getting higher though.
If you get angry nobody will help.

If we are getting numbers over 4 volts per cell then the black probe is not where it is supposed to be.

:D
Favorite Quote: "This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." --- Chris Erskine

Current build: Liahona w/ cheap front suspension and suspension seat post. Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front hub motor. 15ah Headway triangle mounted pack. Tronsung 30 amp,

Previous Build:1992 Trek Antelope 800 - Bone Crusher (no suspension) - Yescomusa 800 watt 36 volt front wheel kit. Don't do it! Get suspension!!!

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by e-beach » May 17 2018 8:49pm

Also, I think your charger has a low output for LiFePO4. IMO it should be outputting at 58.4v when the pack is fully charged.

:D
Favorite Quote: "This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." --- Chris Erskine

Current build: Liahona w/ cheap front suspension and suspension seat post. Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front hub motor. 15ah Headway triangle mounted pack. Tronsung 30 amp,

Previous Build:1992 Trek Antelope 800 - Bone Crusher (no suspension) - Yescomusa 800 watt 36 volt front wheel kit. Don't do it! Get suspension!!!

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Re: Odd Ping Battery Pack behaviour

Post by adamsavage79 » May 17 2018 8:55pm

e-beach wrote:
May 17 2018 8:49pm
Also, I think your charger has a low output for LiFePO4. IMO it should be outputting at 58.4v when the pack is fully charged.

:D
It might get to that, but I would have to a reading the second the charger is done. It drops quickly after the charger is done, and then stablizes.

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