200Ah 12V battery bank (18650)

Tomasenskede

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Oct 7, 2018
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Today I have 3 lead batteries (355 Ah) in my boat. I have a plan to replace them with a lithium battery bank based on 18650 cells…

I have three charges.
  • Diesel generator of 115A 14.4V (Volvo Penta)
  • Solar charger 10A with adjustable voltage (Victron SmartSolar)
  • shore power 45A charger with "adjustable" voltage (Quick SBC 501FR)

Questions;
  • 3S or 4S…. 3S = 9V – 12.6V, 4S = 12V – 16.8V
  • Bank setup? 10 packs of 3x5 or 4x5 with BMS in parallel or any other design?
  • DC-DC to get correct voltage? Or not?

Thanks,
Tomas
 
I don't know if you've checked into LiFePo chemistry... For a boat it converts easier to 12v, and a reputation for better for safety.
 
https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/WB-LYP400AHA-LiFeYPO4-3-2V-400Ah.html?force_sid=5hsl9p12j2k5nmi7jl7uicr4q6

four of those and then a couple of balance boards to keep them equal, no bms needed.
that cell (a pack of 4) will destroy that lead acid in performance in every metric (or imperial :mrgreen: ) and it will weigh under 60kg/120lbs. it could power the starter motor on your generator for 3~4 hours non stop.

it can deliver 1200A continous or 4000A peak.

they have bigger ones.... :roll:
 
3s will charge quicker because the voltage is lower, with the 4s, your going to have to up the charge voltage to get them fully charge. If you build it yourself 3s will be easier to build. 200 ah of 4s will be many more cells. My 94ah battery pack was 156 cells. Myself if I had to build another 18650 battery pack I would use 3s, thats just my preference, you can charge with available chargers and they run all my stuff including my inverters even when I got it down to 30 percent, I never needed a booster for it. But for a 4s battery pack you will need something to take down the voltage, fans/lights don't like voltages above 15 volts, even 14 volts will be pushing it. The goal zero lithiums are all 3s.

With 4s, if you use your current chargers, they will see a full battery when the battery reaches 14.4 volts and probably reduce amps to float which will be less then an amp, you will have to hope your chargers can have the bulk voltage raised above 15 volts. Also voltage drop between chargers and battery might not let you get high enough to give them a good charge.

With 3s you need something to monitor your balancing everytime, it not something you can neglect. I wouldnt rely on the BMS to stop the charging everytime. And if you will be charging at high amps, I highly recommend active balancers, they will keep up with your charger (balancing at up to 10 amps). Active balancers cost about 25 dollars per cell, you need 3 for a 3s pack, you can find them at electricarpartscompany. I use them on my 4s lifepo4 pack that had balancing problems but they also work on 18650. Picture of my 4s active balancers.
active balancers.jpg
 
Do you run music radios, communication radios, and lights at night? Are you going to be happy with the run-time of 200-Ah?

If you want 18650 cells to live a long time, do not charge them to over 4.05V per cell. With fluctuations in accuracy for equipment, shoot for 4V per cell, so 12V for 3S or 16V (or less) for 4S. Then, do not go below 3.0V per cell on the LVC, unless it is an emergency. 9V for 3S and 12V for 4S.

Each option has its benefits and drawbacks, but...I recommend 4S, 12V-16V
 
it would be impossibe to charge 16v and you would lose most of the effective capacity is above 14.4V wich just happen to be the voltage where a alternator peaks. you you would only get 40Ah from a 100Ah battery...
good luck finding a voltage controller for that alternator that does 16v.

unles you want to add a pretty cost in DC/DC converters i would just go with 4 thundersky cells with the right capacity and be done with it. plug and play.
 
Voltron said:
I don't know if you've checked into LiFePo chemistry... For a boat it converts easier to 12v, and a reputation for better for safety.

Yes, LiFePo would be a better option in regards to voltage... but my 18650 are "free"...

flippy said:
https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/WB-LYP400AHA-LiFeYPO4-3-2V-400Ah.html?force_sid=5hsl9p12j2k5nmi7jl7uicr4q6

four of those and then a couple of balance boards to keep them equal, no bms needed.
that cell (a pack of 4) will destroy that lead acid in performance in every metric (or imperial :mrgreen: ) and it will weigh under 60kg/120lbs. it could power the starter motor on your generator for 3~4 hours non stop.

it can deliver 1200A continous or 4000A peak.

they have bigger ones.... :roll:

Yes, I have seen the Winston packs, a friend has them and he is very happy... they are preferable in regards to voltage and easy-of-use... but costly

flippy said:
it would be impossibe to charge 16v and you would lose most of the effective capacity is above 14.4V wich just happen to be the voltage where a alternator peaks. you you would only get 40Ah from a 100Ah battery...
good luck finding a voltage controller for that alternator that does 16v.

unles you want to add a pretty cost in DC/DC converters i would just go with 4 thundersky cells with the right capacity and be done with it. plug and play.

DC DC seams not to be an option...
 
spinningmagnets said:
Do you run music radios, communication radios, and lights at night? Are you going to be happy with the run-time of 200-Ah?

If you want 18650 cells to live a long time, do not charge them to over 4.05V per cell. With fluctuations in accuracy for equipment, shoot for 4V per cell, so 12V for 3S or 16V (or less) for 4S. Then, do not go below 3.0V per cell on the LVC, unless it is an emergency. 9V for 3S and 12V for 4S.

Each option has its benefits and drawbacks, but...I recommend 4S, 12V-16V

in reads to your recommendation... how should I solve the charging... as my current setup is 14.4V...
 
jonyjoe303 said:
3s will charge quicker because the voltage is lower, with the 4s, your going to have to up the charge voltage to get them fully charge. If you build it yourself 3s will be easier to build. 200 ah of 4s will be many more cells. My 94ah battery pack was 156 cells. Myself if I had to build another 18650 battery pack I would use 3s, thats just my preference, you can charge with available chargers and they run all my stuff including my inverters even when I got it down to 30 percent, I never needed a booster for it. But for a 4s battery pack you will need something to take down the voltage, fans/lights don't like voltages above 15 volts, even 14 volts will be pushing it. The goal zero lithiums are all 3s.

With 4s, if you use your current chargers, they will see a full battery when the battery reaches 14.4 volts and probably reduce amps to float which will be less then an amp, you will have to hope your chargers can have the bulk voltage raised above 15 volts. Also voltage drop between chargers and battery might not let you get high enough to give them a good charge.

With 3s you need something to monitor your balancing everytime, it not something you can neglect. I wouldnt rely on the BMS to stop the charging everytime. And if you will be charging at high amps, I highly recommend active balancers, they will keep up with your charger (balancing at up to 10 amps). Active balancers cost about 25 dollars per cell, you need 3 for a 3s pack, you can find them at electricarpartscompany. I use them on my 4s lifepo4 pack that had balancing problems but they also work on 18650. Picture of my 4s active balancers.
active balancers.jpg

Interesting! in reagards to the 3S setup, an BMS would solve the balancing act... you have lifepo4 I have Li-ion...
 
You might be able to adjust the charger up a hair to 15V, even so...doing that you would not fully charge the 4S pack (where 4V X 4S = 16 V). For a boat, that would be a safety measure. Most damage to cells that lead to a battery fire involve overcharging. A more ideal lithium battery would be 4S of LiFeOPO4 chemistry, but that is more expensive, and 18650-format cells are very common and cheap in the NCA and NCM chemistries.
 
Well if you have lots of free 18650 LiCo cells then it looks like you want a solution based around those!

I have a vague memory that boats/trucks etc sometimes have (or can be configured with) and adjustable voltage regulator on their alternator, so if you have excessive voltage drop down the wiring you can turn the voltage up a bit. Of course, you still need to ensure your 12V equipment will cope with higher voltage (or maybe use a dc-dc for sensitive/expensive gear?), but you can probably strike a compromise whereby the batteries don't get quite full voltage but your equipment doesn't get fried. What's the chances your alternator could have such a regulator fitted? Or maybe there's an option to fit a 110 or 230V AC alternator and using a mains-powered charger?
 
Tomasenskede said:
DC DC seams not to be an option...
then you need to accept a 60% loss (or more) in capacity in the battery you build.
 
You're pretty much going to need to go DC/DC if you want to preserve your 12V equipment and make use of the full capacity of your pack.


You might be able to isolate the engine starter and run that directly from full pack voltage, and just use the DC/DC system for voltage sensitive electronics and such.

Charging might not be a big issue if you can replace/modify the regulator from the alternator to give around 16V or a touch higher, but once again it would need to be isolated from the main 12V system and only used to charge the battery pack/feed a DC converter.

12V stuff isn't going to like being fed that much voltage, the stuff that doesn't blow immediately or refuse to work will probably live a much shorter life (light bulbs will run much hotter for instance).
 
I know this is old post, but I figure I'd share some of my knowledge of electrocuting myself and fixing cars/stuff. As the others have said, you could get a custom voltage regulator on your alternator, and from there you run an additional properly gauged cable (4 gauge should suffice, but you know your load more than anyone) and then you can run the new cable to your new battery pack with BMS. Now with your old cable you would need to get a heavy duty resistor, that will work to buck down the voltage, and you won't have any extra PCBs to worry about. Good luck and lmk if you figures it out! I'm building a large 18650 cell as well is what brought me here
 
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