NiCd for 36v1000w motor

mach 5

10 µW
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Dec 10, 2018
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I came across a supposedly 4 wheeled mobility scooter with a 36v 1000w brush-less motor (but it only has 2 wires?) and lots of Ni-Cd battery packs from emergency lighting, D-SC1500HX5 which is 5 x 1.2v 1.5Ah (6v@1.5Ah) in a row and D-SC1500HX2X2 which is 4 cells (4.8v @ 1.5Ah) in a 2x2 configuration - both wired in series. After reading as many posts here as I could I have decided I need fusible links and preferably a BMS to make some battery packs.
The problem is I'm not sure how many batteries to include so it doesn't discharge too quickly, do I just parallel then series to 36v 1000w or do I add extra so the NiCd's don't discharge too quickly and go boom?
Where do I get fusible links, how many I will need and where to put them (be nice now :)
I have never used a BMS and don't know which one to get since a lot of people don't think you need them for NiCd's but I don't want anything to go wrong since I'm building this for the neighbors kids go-kart.

Any help on this project would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx,
mach 5
 
NiCd cells don't need BMS-- under trickle charge conditions, the earliest cells to reach full voltage simply reject the extra current as heat while the others catch up. It's a luxury of NiCd chemistry that you should definitely exploit.

For this reason (inherent self-balance on overcharge), it's not terribly important what pack architecture you use. [Not true, according to AW's observation in the post below. Use separate parallel strings of cells in series to reach your required capacity.] [strike]But if you want the optimum, you'll cut the cells apart and package them into parallel blocks, which you then link in series to reach your target voltage.[/strike] It might be more convenient for you to use your 4 cell modules as discrete "cells" for the purpose of compiling your pack.
 
mach 5 said:
36v 1000w brush-less motor (but it only has 2 wires?)
That would probably be a brushed motor.

If you apply power to the wires (like from a car battery) then the motor will spin at about 1/3 of the speed it would have with the original, if it is a brushed. Reversing the wires will reverse the direction.

It will not spin at all if it is brushless. If it is brushless, with only two wires, it means it must have a controller built into it, and the two wires are only power for everything in there. With no other wires, it means the controller must be wireless, so you would need to use the original control off the scooter (probably on an armrest or handlebar) to control it. Or else, open up the motor and replace the controller inside with an external controller.


and lots of Ni-Cd battery packs from emergency lighting, D-SC1500HX5 which is 5 x 1.2v 1.5Ah (6v@1.5Ah) in a row and D-SC1500HX2X2 which is 4 cells (4.8v @ 1.5Ah) in a 2x2 configuration - both wired in series. After reading as many posts here as I could I have decided I need fusible links

If you simply mean a fuse for the pack itself (right at the exit of the pack, at either the main + or main -), then that's usually a good idea, to protect the wiring from a short farther downstream.

You'd need to size this fuse so it won't blow at any current the systme is supposed to experience, but would blow if there was an actual short or other failure that you'd want power to be cut by.

If you mean for each cell, well, you can do that but it's going to be a lot of connections and parts. Not usually necessary, but it could, make a safer pack. There are a number of threads discussing cell-level fusing with various methods, if you look around (mostly in the battery technology subforum), probably mostly in threads with "fuse*" or "fusing" in the title.

and preferably a BMS to make some battery packs.
I've never seen a BMS for NiCd or other nickel chemistries. There might be programmable ones (expensive) that could go down that far, but I don't think you need one.




The problem is I'm not sure how many batteries to include so it doesn't discharge too quickly, do I just parallel then series to 36v 1000w or do I add extra so the NiCd's don't discharge too quickly and go boom?
You do not want to parallel NiCd or other Nickel type cells. The way their chemistry works, it is dangerous to charge them in parallel, and the more parallel cells there are teh more likely to get a fire or explosion out of it.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2670#p2670

When NiXX cells reach full capacity, their voltage *drops*, and the cell heats up to get rid of this excess energy. That means that the current that's still flowing to charge other paralleled not-yet-full cells will now flow thru the already-full cell that's already hot will cause the cell to get hotter and hotter. The other not-yet-full cells also won't get full, becuase *their* current will also flow into the already-full cell, since they're higher voltage than it is.

If the cells are not directly paralleled, but only at the main + and - of series strings of them, the problem is still there, just transferred to the voltage range of the whole string, and actually made worse: a single cell in a string that reaches full charge still drops the voltage of the whole string; if that is lower than that of the other strings, those strings (and the charger) will start dumping current into the one with the full cell, and that cell will heat up. Not only that, but now all the other cells in that string will get full quickly, and the string voltage will drop even lower, and more current will flow, causing even more heat in all the cells in that string.


Even if no cell actually catches fire, it will still heat up way more than it should, and will probably vent. That damages the cell (as does the excess heat), so it has less capacity than before, so it will fill up faster than before and cause this problem sooner each time, until it simply dies. (exactly what happens then depends on what happens inside the cell during this process).

If you do not actually fully charge the cells, and don't use their self-balancing feature, then this is not a problem and you could then parallel the cells. Won't have quite as much capacity (how much less you'd have to test).

But you will need to monitor the voltage of each parallel group to ensure they never go above the voltage that they would then drop to after reaching their full state. (otherwise if one of them does reach the full state, it'll suck the others down and cause the scenario described above).

Chargers with a single cell or series string (no parallel) normally detect the voltage drop of a certain amount and terminate charge when that happens. Some cheaper ones just use a thermistor somewhere in the pack to detect the heat, and when it gets hot enough they cut off charge, but these chargers can damage the packs, especially if they are frequently put back on the charger after only a short use. (many heating cycles).


You might be able to *discharge* them in parallel, but you would have to disconnect all the paralleled sets from each other before charging, and charge each set separately. This makes for a complicated pack setup that requires detachable parallel connections, and some way to ensure that it is impossible to charge it at all unless they are disconnected.




The power and capacity needs are determined by your controller and how long you want the kart to run. Since you will probably have to buy a brushed motor controller (unless you can figure out how to use the one that came with the scooter to do what you want), then whatever that controller's current limit is is how much current you need the batteries to supply.


Some examples with potentially useful numbers:

If you have say, a 25A controller, and run the kart at full power all the time, and need to run the kart for an hour, you need a minimum of a 25Ah battery.

If teh cells are actually still all capable of their full 1.5Ah, that's about 17 parallel strings of cells for that capacity.

At about 1.2v per cell, then to get 36v that's about 30 cells in series.

So at minimum, you'd need 30s x 17p cells, which is 510 cells. That is a LOT of cells to connect up (and monitor).


Now...let's say each cell is 1C capable (we don't know; you'd have to test that unless you can find a data sheet for them). That means each cell could supply 1.5A. Since the controller assumed above needs a minimum of 25A at max, then you'd need 25 / 1.5A = 17 cells. So you'd still need that 510 cell pack even if you didn't need 25Ah of capacity for a long runtime.

If the cells are 5C capable, that's 5 x 1.5Ah = 7.5A each. That reduces the parallel cell needs to 1/5, to 4p, or 6Ah.

If you used a 6Ah pack, at 25A continous, it'd last only 1/5 the time, or around 12 minutes, at maximum power continously.
 
amberwolf said:
When NiXX cells reach full capacity, their voltage *drops*, and the cell heats up to get rid of this excess energy. That means that the current that's still flowing to charge other paralleled not-yet-full cells will now flow thru the already-full cell that's already hot will cause the cell to get hotter and hotter. The other not-yet-full cells also won't get full, becuase *their* current will also flow into the already-full cell, since they're higher voltage than it is.

Super useful to know. It also explains why all the NiCd tool packs I've seen are 1P construction.
 
Yeah, it's something I discovered the same way Fechter did (in the link above), sometime in the 90s when I used to build scifi props for conventions and such...NiCd was the only rechargeable stuff I could find then, and it was way easier to seal them up in the props than make battery compartments a user could access. Some of them needed more power than I could get from a single set of batteries at the voltage I was using...and I was lucky enough to not be present when it went bang; was left charging outside. :/ I blew another one up accidentally hooking the charger backwards, but that was 1p.

I never did understand why it failed the way it did, but only when I paralleled the cells...but I did learn not to do that. :lol: Wasn't until a couple decades later, getting into ebikes, that I learned what the deal was. :oops:


FWIW, it's also why the Prius, Vectrix, etc that use NiXX chemistries use such high voltage packs--there is no other "easy" way to get the Wh they need with those cells.
 
I wasn't too worried about buying the Flipsky controller for this motor as I have other projects in mind which could utilize that controller, ie: the e-bike wheel you can see in the battery photo.
As for my battery pack, I might try a pack where I can bolt the 17s banks in parallel and unbolt them to charge them, unless someone has a less messy way of doing it?
 
mach 5 said:
The motor has 2 wires at the top for power, 2 wires at the bottom for brake lights and a manual park brake leaver on the right.
On all the mobility scooter motors I have seen, they're not for "brake lights", they are to apply power to disengage the solenoid that holds the brake off while powered. Unless you apply power to those wires constantly, the brake is held on (by springs/etc).

If the motor turns easily by hand without any power, then either that solenoid brake has been removed or physically disabled internally, or the brake pads are worn out (usually squeals or squeaks), or it's a type of motor/brake setup I haven't seen yet. (that presumably requires power applied to those wires to engage the brake; opposite of typical behavior).

If the motor feels stiff, or can't be turned, then the brake is engaged, and you'd need to disengage it by applying power to that pair of wires. Or open up the end of the motor and take the brake off the motor axle. (usually it's easy, as it's made as a replaceable module--but this will probably also take out the parking brake).


There are also 4 of those round plugs with an 'X' on them.

Those are the brush holders, so you can change brushes when they wear out.

Since yours has four, it means it is a four-pole motor, which is higher torque (and lower speed) than the more common two-pole motors.
 
The motor turns and works fine as is so either its broke or reversed i guess. I'm still persisting with the NiCd's for now however I need a cheap way to charge the 17 serial packs of 30. Does anyone know of either an IC with multiple outputs or individual IC's that I can configure into a cheap charger?
 
If you want safe charging, find and buy a NiMH or NiCd charger that has both DeltaT and DeltaV end-of-charge detection, and install thermistors compatible with the charger in the middle of the packs so it can detect fi they're overheating (so they don't catch fire) and also detect end of charge by DeltaT (change in temperature) in case it fails to detect DeltaV.

Just make sure the charger is designed for the number of cells in series you want to charge, and is also designed not to exceed the maximum charging current those particular cells are intended to charge at (you'd have to find the specs on the cells to be certain, but it's usually not very high current, typically about 1/10th of whatever the capacity in Ah of the cell is, typically notated as 0.1C. If it's a 1Ah cell, you'd use 0.1A charging current.

Some fast chargers charge at 0.5C (0.5A for a 1Ah cell), up to 1C (1A for a 1Ah cell), but these are going to heat the cells significantly more, and may cause charging to terminate early because of the heat, so you'd have to let them sit and cool off, then restart charging again (and potentially again and again). The heat isn't really good for the cells, so the lower the charging rate the longer they'll last.

Many RC chargers also do NiMH and NiCd, so if you find one that will do enough voltage for your cells, you can use those. They often have adjustable current. They don't balance NiXX cells (no hookup for that), just the main + and - of the series string. At least some fo them have the port for the thermistor; I highly recommend making sure you use it.


I don't recommend building a charger yourself for it, unless you have experience building chargers, especially for NiXX chemistries. I can pretty much guarantee it won't be cheaper than buying one by the time you're done.

If you want a learning experience, you can look up datasheets for charger chips at companies like Maxim, Infineon, TI, Linear, etc. The datasheets will have a very basic circuit to make the chip "work", but you then have to apply engineering principles and experience to the actual as-built circuit to fix the various issues that crop up in reality. (which can be a huge PITA and cost a lot in blown parts, depending on what you're building).
 
I am aware of buying chargers but couldn't find any cheap enough to buy 17 which is why I asked if anyone knows of an IC that can handle 30 series NiCd's. The best I know of is the MAX713 which is cheap and easy to turn into a charger (for me anyway) but that can only handle 16 cells.
 
If that's the best one that's available (I haven't checked in years) and you want to use chips like that to base the charger around (and have the electronics experience to design or work out the stuff they don't show in the appnotes/etc.), then your best bet would be to build the packs in 15s segments, and build at least a pair of chargers, to charge each segment.


I just don't want to see someone else make the same mistakes I did, but not get lucky, and end up with a fire (I almost did). (it can happen with any battery chemistry...but one that heats up on purpose is less safe in big packs like EVs need).


FWIW, there is a charging method that doesn't heat them up like that...but it's not self-balancing, so you have to keep an eye on all the individual cell voltages. Instead of charging up to the usual 1.4V+, you charge only to 1.2V per cell or so. I don't know of any of the charging chips that did this back then, but maybe there are some now. (probably not, unless they also have a "balance connector" input set of pins, one for each cell positive).






My own experiments with DIY charging destroyed one pack pretty well, by overheating, because my thermal cutoff didn't work one time. That one got so hot the shrinkwrap on the cells basically melted, which then allowed some of the cells to touch each other, shorting across them, generating even more heat, until the pack actually smoked. :( That one I had to dunk in the sink and run cold water over it or it probably would've caught fire. That was also the last such battery I charged inside the house. :oops:

Before that I severely damaged another pack, using just a small constant-current (CC) lab power supply, at low current, and just watching it...but I got distracted by something (probably the dogs I had back then), and it passed the "full" point, but kept being charged, so cells vented and lost (a lot of) capacity and capability.

This also happened with a commercial charger by Tenergy, due to a poor connection on the thermistor that came loose after charging started--the charger was not designed to continuosly check the thermistor, it only checked for it's presence when first checking for a battery to charge. :( But the Tenergy charger also had delta-V sensing, so it did eventually turn off charging (but not till after it was overheated), so I didnt' get a fire.

After I got a used but fixable LiFePO4 pack, I kinda just stopped trying with the NiXX stuff; there were too many dangers without a good reliable charger, plus I couldn't afford to replace the packs I'd destroyed, and what I had left wasnt' enough to do what I needed. I had a bunch of sub-C celled toolpacks I'd planned to take apart and build into packs pretty much like you're going to do, but I never did get around to doing it, cuz I got better lithium packs.



BTW: I"m curious why you've started editing out info and pics from your old posts? It isn't very useful for those following this thread to understand what's going on, or to continue helping if we have to refer back to anything to give you relevant advice.

Or for anyone searching for info on that part of the topic, and finding our answers (and other questions) but not being able to see what they are in context with. Part of the forums' usefulness comes from the archive of such threads, full of questions and answers that enable people to fix their problems or build their projects without having to wait for answers to their own threads.
 
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