Tesla acquires maxwell - why Luke?

MitchJi

MitchJi

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https://electrek.co/2019/02/04/tesla-acquires-ultracapacitor-battery-manufacturer/
from a different source:
“Maxwell executives told investors in January that it had developed and patented a "dry electrode" technology that could significantly increase the driving range and reduce the cost of electric vehicle batteries. In a presentation, Maxwell said it expected strategic alliances "within six months" centered around this technology.”
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Anyone know how Tesla plans to use maxwells technology? I’m sure that it’s a substantial advantage for Tesla or they would not have made the purchase.

Does that fit with the technology that needed to be developed for the Goodenaugh glass solid state batteries?
 
From maxwell's latest press release..



Looks like they have something similar to solid state batteries.
 

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It's a guessing game as to where supercapacitors might fit in. It 'might' involve capturing regen, but...who knows?

I firmly believe that Tesla has accurate info on the next-gen solid-state-batteries/ SSB's.

I believe most customers would rather have a smaller, lighter, and less expensive battery...rather than more range. It's possible that a small improvement in regen capture could help to provide high performance from a smaller battery pack, since the first two seconds of acceleration draw more amps compared to the cruise-phase.

But again...who knows?
 
The stuff from goodenough is a different battery technology.

Who knows what Tesla is up to with these acquisitions. All i know is that the upcoming roadster cannot meet the claimed range with the battery technology we have today. It will likely require >350whr/kg, and a battery that can theoretically push 500whrs/kg would be just the ticket, though it would require some revisions over the 300whrs/kg that maxwell is demonstrating.

There is another company in the process of building a solid state battery factory.

Those predictions about 'solid state by 2020' appear to be coming true.
 
Dunno, but we're starting to see several serious irons in the fire for commercially viable next-gen battery tech. The next 5 years are going to be interesting times.
 
spinningmagnets said:
It's a guessing game as to where supercapacitors might fit in. It 'might' involve capturing regen, but...who knows?
Click to expand...

You must have missed the part about the 'dry electrode battery' above.
 
The main advantage is Maxwell is working on a solid state electrode...essentially the higher charge rates and discharge rates are possible with this along with 500-600wh/kg....
 
This sounds good. At the Gigafactory they have huge rooms filled with large rolls that they spread goop on and they dry and recapture the solvent.


http://rivianauto.club/xf/threads/teslas-battery-cell-technology-acquisition-maxwell.54/
This morning, Tesla announced it was acquiring Maxwell, a super capacitor manufacturer for about $200M in an all stock deal. I've already seen some reporting of this getting it all wrong, so here's my take.

This isn't about the super capacitors. This isn't about acquiring talented research scientists. It is all about the battery cell manufacturing technology that Maxwell has successfully transferred from their super capacitor manufacturing. This manufacturing technology (note, no new battery cell chemistry breakthroughs are here at all) allows any lithium ion cell to significantly increase:
Energy density
Power output at high energy capacities
Longevity
And it can do all three of the above simultaneously while being significantly cheaper to manufacture. Here's the Maxwell paper that describes the results.
http://www.powersourcesconference.com/Power Sources 2018 Digest/docs/3-1.pdf
A lithium ion battery is simple in concept. You start with an aluminum sheet that acts as the cathode electrode. You create the cathode by mixing a bunch of elements together (nickle, magnesium, cobalt, etc.) along with a liquid solvent to form a slurry paste. You then compress this slurry onto the aluminum sheet through high pressure rollers. You then dry the new composite sheet in an oven and drive off the liquid solvent. You do this process again, this time with a copper sheet and your anode material (typically graphite with some silicon these days), and then you combine these two composite sheets together along with a polymer separator and you've got a battery cell (view this for a really quick overview).

The liquid solvent adds challenges in that it interacts with the cathode and anode chemistries in undesirable ways. And it is expensive since you have to heat the composite in giant ovens and recover the driven off solvent vapor (can't vent into the air!).

What Maxwell claims to have is a process to mix and bond the cathode and anode ingredients WITHOUT needing a wet solvent. They use some kind of proprietary polymer binder and a dry process. So the end result is a better performing cell, in every which way possible (energy density, power density and longevity), AND it reduces manufacturing cost since you don't need high energy drying ovens and solvent recapture systems.

So, what's this mean? I think this means Tesla got a bargain for $200M in stock. Gotta scoot, more later.
Click to expand...
 
HIs take on the ultra caps:
Some people are wondering if the ultra cap part of Maxwell is of use to Tesla, especially since Maxwell recently inked a supply agreement to Geely for their hybrid cars. Ultra caps ARE useful for hybrids that have small (or non-existent) batteries. They are used to store braking energy and release it back upon acceleration. But if you have a big battery, ultra caps are useless since you'd just store the braking energy into the big battery. Essentially, the small batteries of a hybrid can't accept much power (can't stuff too much energy at once), so you need an ultra cap. Tesla will never need this.

And as far as ultra caps replacing batteries are concerned - well, right now, ultra caps can store about 1/70 the amount of energy as a battery in the same volume. At much higher cost. And the energy leaks out much faster than a battery (self discharge). So, yeah, that's not going to happen anytime soon.
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spinningmagnets said:
I believe most customers would rather have a smaller, lighter, and less expensive battery...rather than more range. It's possible that a small improvement in regen capture could help to provide high performance from a smaller battery pack, since the first two seconds of acceleration draw more amps compared to th Igbo cruise-phase.
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I agree with that if you’re talking about Tesla. If you’re talking the industry as a whole BMW for example I don’t agree. And it’s hard for me me to see how smaller, lighter and cheaper wouldn’t lead to cars with more range.
 
Interesting! so there's less damage to the cathode and anode, so this is essentially a way of optimizing what's already there in existing cells. Seems like it also makes for a more environmentally sound way to produce lithium batteries.

Doesn't sound like this leads to increased safety, as solid state cells are said to provide.

But higher wh/kg AND power is fantastic, because we've always had to make compromises in our EV designs!

Maybe this is the secret behind Maxwell's high density capacitors. High density meaning ~30whrs/kg :lol:; but still impressive by capacitor standards!
 
MitchJi, what I meant was that the current Tesla cars have a Battery pack of a certain size. If newer SSBs have twice the energy density per volume, then a similar sized pack would double the range, or as an option it can be a pack that is half the size with the same range.

If getting a pack that is half the size, it would be lighter and hopefully cheaper, but it also may not be able to put out the same peak amps (*for just the first two seconds of acceleration). If this is so (*and I really don't know), super capacitors may help with acceleration. As long as they might be added, no harm in using them for regen too...
 
No liquids means no flammable solvents so I would assume solid state batteries would be better from a fire safety standpoint.
 
Big waste ah money

Dry electrode tech is already on its way to China via ex Maxwell co inventor

Linda Zhong
An inventor with 38 released US patents, made Maxwell world #1 Ultracapacitor technology company by the famous dry electrode method.

Entrepreneur @EnerTrode Inc • Employee

Apr '11 - Present (7 years 10 months)
EnerTrode
CTO @EnerTrode • Co-Founder

We are a high tech company in energy storage industry

AMAZING THINGS LINDA'S MADE
Most recent products are 1). Invented and developed the new generation of activated dry electrode method, over pass the overall performance of the current best commercial available electrode (Maxwell's dry electrode method) by more than 40%. Built up a production line for a customer. This product performance has been proved by multiple customers . One of the two US patents has been approved and released. International patents are pending. 2). Invented and developed a world class Li-ion capacitors with energy density of 15 wh/kg and power density of 10 kw/kg, by using our newly developed electrode and a simple and cost effective LIC manufacture process. This product can be used in combination of Li-ion batteries without a DC-DC converter due to a single device's high voltage (4V) and will increase the system power dramatically, and prolong the battery life significantly. Products have been supplied and performance has been proved by some major US army contractors. Patent pending

___________

About LICAP
Led by the industry leader in ultracapacitor design, Dr. Linda Zhong, LICAP holds the IP for the most advanced ultracapacitor electrode manufacturing technology, the activated dry method, which significantly reduces manufacture cost and surpasses all other electrode methods in electrical and life performance by over 60%. Dr. Zhong has also invented multiple Lithium metal attachment methods for Li-ion battery or Li-ion capacitor anodes, which promotes a fast Li-dope process and provides a precise dope amount.


Our corporation also operates in China as LICAP New Energy Technology (Tianjin) Company Ltd. www.tjlicap.com We have full manufacturing of ultracapacitors and ultracapacitor modules in our Tianjin plant as well as engineering and module design teams.

-----
Dry-particle based adhesive and dry film and methods of making same
Patent number: 9525168
Abstract: Dry process based energy storage device structures and methods for using a dry adhesive therein are disclosed.
Type: Grant
Filed: August 22, 2014
Date of Patent: December 20, 2016
Assignee: Maxwell Technologies, Inc.
Inventors: Porter Mitchell, Xiaomei Xi, Linda Zhong, Bin Zou
 
It is simple.....Tesla wants to be able to dump huge amps during accelatation surges that even high-C lithium cells cant match.
When driver floors accelarator....supercaps start dumping thier stored power to suplement lithium pack...this happens when maximum discharge rate of lithium pack is reached. The rich kids who race dad's Model-S on the strips will love it!
 
I don't think you will be seeing any ultracapacitors added to Tesla EVs, but rather something like an electrode mfg process that eliminates solvents and hence reduces cost and expanding available materials selection perhaps, but this is just speculation from seeing the public patents.
 
pullin-gs said:
It is simple.....Tesla wants to be able to dump huge amps during accelatation surges that even high-C lithium cells cant match.
When driver floors accelarator....supercaps start dumping thier stored power to suplement lithium pack...this happens when maximum discharge rate of lithium pack is reached. The rich kids who race dad's Model-S on the strips will love it!
Click to expand...

Really unlikely. They already have a car that can do a 0-60 in 2.5 seconds. What they need is cheaper batteries and higher energy density. Power density in modern lithium packs is not lacking at all.

They've had the ability to install capacitors in their cars since the beginning. There are many reasons why they haven't, and have used batteries instead.
 
neptronix said:
pullin-gs said:
It is simple.....Tesla wants to be able to dump huge amps during accelatation surges <SNIP>
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Really unlikely. They already have a car that can do a 0-60 in 2.5 seconds. What they need is cheaper batteries and higher energy density. Power density in modern lithium packs is not lacking at all.

They've had the ability to install capacitors in their cars since the beginning. There are many reasons why they haven't, and have used batteries instead.
Click to expand...
It's not about power density (lithium battery chemistry wins hands-down over electro-storage capacitors).....its about optimizing power delivery over a shorter period of time (watts).

FYI Tesla is way up there 0-60 (not best though) and rules the drag stips.....1/8th mile strips that is. ;)
There are 13 other factory-stock rides that all beat Tesla's best every 1/4 mile times (10.4 seconds).
Raw horsepower after the gates wins which is where Telsa comes up short.
Enter Maxwell's SuperCap that can dump 100% of its power in seconds once the car is out the gates (tires have grabbed and car is already going over 60mph before caps even kick in...otherwise wheels just spin).
 
You mean energy density, right?
The big problem with electric cars is energy density.

Teslas are not racing cars. They just happen to be fast. Tesla could have designed a car with 10 times the power if they wanted ( sacrificing range hugely). But that's a one-off, not a consumer product.

Supercapacitors are 10 times heaver and larger and have a horrible voltage curve. They've been around for about a decade and you'll notice that even dragstrip only guys aren't using them. The damn things are heavier per watt hour than lead acid and self discharge.
 
pullin-gs said:
neptronix said:
pullin-gs said:
It is simple.....Tesla wants to be able to dump huge amps during accelatation surges <SNIP>
Click to expand...

Really unlikely. They already have a car that can do a 0-60 in 2.5 seconds. What they need is cheaper batteries and higher energy density. Power density in modern lithium packs is not lacking at all.

They've had the ability to install capacitors in their cars since the beginning. There are many reasons why they haven't, and have used batteries instead.
Click to expand...
It's not about power density (lithium battery chemistry wins hands-down over electro-storage capacitors).....its about optimizing power delivery over a shorter period of time (watts).

FYI Tesla is way up there 0-60 (not best though) and rules the drag stips.....1/8th mile strips that is. ;)
There are 13 other factory-stock rides that all beat Tesla's best every 1/4 mile times (10.4 seconds).
Raw horsepower after the gates wins which is where Telsa comes up short.
Enter Maxwell's SuperCap that can dump 100% of its power in seconds once the car is out the gates (tires have grabbed and car is already going over 60mph before caps even kick in...otherwise wheels just spin).
Click to expand...


It's counter-intuitive, but even if Tesla were just making a dragster ultra-caps would still suck for the job vs high C-rate performance batteries. Whatever Tesla is wanting to use that maxwell figured out, it's not likely related to super-caps or super-cap function, but rather a super-cap Mfg process that's usefully transferable to LIB mfg.
 
pullin-gs said:
....
Raw horsepower after the gates wins which is where Telsa comes up short.
Enter Maxwell's SuperCap that can dump 100% of its power in seconds once the car is out the gates (tires have grabbed and car is already going over 60mph before caps even kick in...otherwise wheels just spin).
Click to expand...
Tesla's 1/4 limitations are more due to motor /drivetran design which dictates the torque and power available across the rev range. After the 1/8 mark , (~ 80mph), Tesla is past its power peak with no gearing to keep the motor at its peak
Battery power is not the issue.
 
Hillhater said:
pullin-gs said:
....
Raw horsepower after the gates wins which is where Telsa comes up short.
Enter Maxwell's SuperCap that can dump 100% of its power in seconds once the car is out the gates (tires have grabbed and car is already going over 60mph before caps even kick in...otherwise wheels just spin).
Click to expand...
Tesla's 1/4 limitations are more due to motor /drivetran design which dictates the torque and power available across the rev range. After the 1/8 mark , (~ 80mph), Tesla is past its power peak with no gearing to keep the motor at its peak
Battery power is not the issue.
Click to expand...

I hear this argument on YouTube alot. A model 3 or S will win in a 1/4 mile but lose in top speed... But in reality I think Tesla did the right thing in concentrating their efforts in torque up front and insane acceleration.

Have you actually driven an S or 3? I drove the dual motor over the weekend and it's freaking nuts. I bet if people really did more test drives they'd see how different and fun they are...and would boost sales.
 
This video by jack rickard has some excellent information on the maxwell acquisition. Starting at 1:08.

[Youtube]zlJRo9yVzus[/Youtube]
 
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