Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by john61ct » Apr 27 2019 5:06pm


e-beach wrote:But remember: “The flame that burns Twice as bright burns half as long.” Lao Tzu
True!

but is it **more** true with the "longevity" meaning of "lasts long"?

or the per-trip "range" meaning?



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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by e-beach » Apr 27 2019 6:45pm

john61ct wrote:
Apr 27 2019 5:06pm
e-beach wrote:But remember: “The flame that burns Twice as bright burns half as long.” Lao Tzu
True!

but is it **more** true with the "longevity" meaning of "lasts long"?

or the per-trip "range" meaning?
Both. Most high C lithium batteries don't have as many cycles (longevity) in them as lower C batteries. And, if you go WOT all the way on your trip, your range will be decreased by the watt usage needed for speed.

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by john61ct » Apr 27 2019 7:09pm

Thanks, clear.

On the latter I actually meant "build quality / designed for high usable Ah" rather than user behaviour.

So two cells both "rated" 3000 mAh, both from top quality brands, but one claims 40C the other only 10C.

In a use case that never goes above say .2C, is the latter more likely to actually deliver greater capacity?

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by john61ct » Apr 27 2019 7:32pm

Thanks, clear.

On the latter I actually meant "build quality / designed for high usable Ah" rather than user behaviour.

So two cells both "rated" 3000 mAh, both from top quality brands, but one claims 40C the other only 10C.

In a use case that never goes above say .2C, is the latter more likely to actually deliver greater capacity?

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by e-beach » Apr 27 2019 7:54pm

john61ct wrote:
Apr 27 2019 7:32pm
....

So two cells both "rated" 3000 mAh, both from top quality brands, but one claims 40C the other only 10C.

In a use case that never goes above say .2C, is the latter more likely to actually deliver greater capacity?
It has to be an apple to apple comparison. Do you have any cell types in mind?

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Favorite Quotes:
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"At a certain point the entropy wins." Maria Helena Braga

Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by john61ct » Apr 27 2019 9:19pm

Obviously can actually A/B test any given pair, but the intent of the question's about being able to generally infer.

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by e-beach » Apr 27 2019 10:04pm

john61ct wrote:
Apr 27 2019 9:19pm
... but the intent of the question's about being able to generally infer.
Ok, then one could infer from real world performance that RC lipo can deliver higher C rates then Lico but burns out sooner then Lico, while Lico delivers high C ratings then LiFePO but burns out sooner then LiFePO. Other then that manufactures datasheets are required for real A/B comparison.

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by Hillhater » Apr 28 2019 1:30am

e-beach wrote:
Apr 27 2019 10:04pm

....one could infer from real world performance that RC lipo can deliver higher C rates then Lico but burns out sooner then Lico, while Lico delivers high C ratings then LiFePO but burns out sooner then LiFePO. Other then that manufactures datasheets are required for real A/B comparison.
True as a crude summary ,..but not always so with exceptions like A123 lifePo having very high “C” rates and exceptional long life cycle
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by john61ct » Apr 28 2019 5:56am

Sorry I did mean staying within lipo packaging, which my understanding implies lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2, a.k.a. LCO) these days.

Not comparing grossly different chemistries.

And assuming mfg C-rate claims are fictional, but using them as a proxy signal for intended use case.

_____
So two cells both "rated" 3000 mAh, both from top quality brands, but one claims 40C the other only 10C.

In a use case that ** never actually goes above say .2C **, is the latter batt more likely to **actually deliver** greater capacity?

And, what's the meaning of "bolt" at the end of posts?



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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by 999zip999 » Apr 28 2019 7:32am

Lover"s A123 20ah 72v 24s - 1384 cycles 23,000 miles @ 80anps for 5 years. Yes very y heavy. Did I say 23,000 miles. No bms and cant use balance charger.. ? As always in balance. So a waste of money on thru the sense wire changers
Give me another Marcos give me another. Ganbei I don't know where to look for the future but the future is ahead of us give me another Martin Luther King

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by e-beach » Apr 28 2019 10:24am

john61ct wrote:
Apr 28 2019 5:56am
........
So two cells both "rated" 3000 mAh, both from top quality brands, but one claims 40C the other only 10C.

In a use case that ** never actually goes above say .2C **, is the latter batt more likely to **actually deliver** greater capacity?

And, what's the meaning of "bolt" at the end of posts?
I can't answer that with out specifics. What cells are you speaking of? I could speculate but it would be speculation. If it were a guessing game then I would guess the 40c cell would indeed ware out faster then the 10c cell.

BTW, reputable compiles will give honest datasheets or they would loose business to big battery users. Although if you look at the data sheets they usually give a range of what the cells capacity will be, so variance between cells in a known issue.

As for the bolt? It is my way of saying "Happy Electricity" to you.

:D :bolt:
Favorite Quotes:
"This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." Chris Erskine
"At a certain point the entropy wins." Maria Helena Braga

Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

Past: Trek 4500 Yescomusa 36v 800w front DD.
Liahona, Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front DD.
1992 Trek 800, Yescomusa 800w 36v front DD.

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by john61ct » Apr 28 2019 10:45am


e-beach wrote:I could speculate but it would be speculation. If it were a guessing game then I would guess the 40c cell would indeed wear out faster then the 10c cell
Thanks that was exactly my question, a guide to speculation when accurate data is not (yet) available.

> As for the bolt? It is my way of saying "Happy Electricity" to you.

Ah so as in lightning? I thought maybe as in sprinting away,
bolt.jpg

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Re: Scavenging one nearly new battery to make another?

Post by e-beach » Apr 28 2019 11:23am

john61ct wrote:
Apr 28 2019 10:45am
....Thanks that was exactly my question, a guide to speculation when accurate data is not (yet) available......
Exactly! Which is why, around ES, there are known reputable sellers that can be recommended. And types of batteries that can be recommended. We don't like speculation much when building a battery pack. We want the facts.

:D :bolt:
Favorite Quotes:
"This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." Chris Erskine
"At a certain point the entropy wins." Maria Helena Braga

Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

Past: Trek 4500 Yescomusa 36v 800w front DD.
Liahona, Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front DD.
1992 Trek 800, Yescomusa 800w 36v front DD.

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