Business Forums

Over on the EVDL, Ken has kicked off what promises to be a great thread, on starting an EV-related business:

To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu, ausev@austinev.org
Subject: Starting business...
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:03:39 -0400
From: kenscircus@aol.com

Hey all, this is a bit premature, but I thought I would throw this out
there for some feedback.

I am starting a business producing electronic stuff for EVs. My
intention is to help the EV world and build myself a retirement
business. It will certainly take some time because I still have a "day
job", but, this is what I have been doing at my "day job" since the
80's.

I have named it Hot Juice Electric and have started a "beginners"
website. http://www.hotjuiceelectric.com.

Comments, suggestions, advice???

Ken

*** end of Kens message ***

I love the EVDL, but I think folks on ES might agree with me, that the technology (text-based mailing list) is flawed... it is like drinking from a firehose, and messages are hard to find later in the archives.

All sorts of folks drive all sorts of EVs for all sorts of reasons.

Some here aboard ES are in EV or EV-related businesses, and some may be interested in starting up or getting into this business.

I'm assembling (slowly) my next-generation scooter, and I consider it a prototype for future production, although I have not organized the effort formally yet, as a registered enterprise.

So my question is, would folks aboard ES be interested in a forums section all about the EV business world. There might be separate forums about advertising and promotion, financing, import/export, training and supervising staff, developing business plans, etc...

There is a lot more to any business besides just product knowledge.

Gawd help me, I have squandered most of my life as a combat accountant, but I have academics in marketing too, and a little schooling in physics and chemistry and engineering. As accountant, been a supervisor and Business Manager...

A lot of startups are one-man bands, and doomed to fail.

Business requires a range of skills, and many get into biz because they are good as marketers or as engineers etc, but these are not a rounded skill set.

The objectives of opening up one or more business-related forums might be two-fold:
1) How to start a business
2) To mentor others either starting up or running EV businesses

I would not ask this question if I thought adding and maintaining additional forums would require more work on the part of the good people who already host and administer this site...

Thoughts please?

and success to all

tks

Lock

So my question is, would folks aboard ES be interested in a forums section all about the EV business world.

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I would.

I barely glance at the PA mailing list because it's impossible combing through old posts and the organization of the whole thing just sucks. A forum like this is fine, though I'd really like to finish my own forum code sometime and propose that as an alternative.

Anyway, there is certainly a market for this stuff, worldwide especially, but I don't know if you can sustain a business just on that. ebikes.ca quickly sells out of every DrainBrain they make, yet they also sell other things primarily and they wouldn't stay afloat producing only DrainBrains.

CGameProgrammer said:

Anyway, there is certainly a market for this stuff, worldwide especially, but I don't know if you can sustain a business just on that. ebikes.ca quickly sells out of every DrainBrain they make, yet they also sell other things primarily and they wouldn't stay afloat producing only DrainBrains.

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I would file this under Business Plans, and Financing, as in "Don't put all your eggs in one basket"...
tks
L

This is an admirable project and for the individuals that have the drive, desire and "stickability" any portion of the EV business is open and ripe for the taking. Part of the key is understanding what a niche market is, how to develop a market within that niche and produce a product/service that cannot be copied easily.

Only for example purposes, I'll use the drain brain. For the initiated it appears to be a great product. The initiated and savvy understand its importance and what it can do for them. Overall, on the basis of gross sales on a national level, this is a very small market with limited potential. Same for the "Watts Up". The online tech manual for the watts up is 31 pages!!

So, if I wanted to make a living doing this stuff and decided a product like the drain brain was marketable I'd probably contact these folks, determine their market and consider licensing the product but market in such a way that it was simply a plug in, gave information in clear text that the casual rider could understand. Once the casual rider understands it, they will want it. No understand, no want.

Other examples of products ebikes can use: Mirrors, kick stands, battery replacement that do not require a degree in engineering from the end user. For example, I don't care what you call the battery, I want the most bang for the buck and the easiest to use and don't want to have to research LIPO, NIMH, NICAD, SLA, or whatever else you call them. If the most bang comes from B&B EB batteries they license those and sell them to your market. Use the others for "upgrades". Running the numbers, for example, on those $1,500.00 LIPOS that are allegedly available June 1st, sound good initially but 300 cycles at 1500 bucks equals five bucks a cycle, even doubling the number of cycles and it's still expensive if you don't need all that range.

The marketing person who figures out the headaches/problems and access problems the consumer finds and can solve those problems will not only make a living but will get very financially healthy doing do. Business is business, whether your selling hamburgers or ebikes/ecars/eboats and those that make it easiest on the end consumer win. Every time.

I could go on for hours here and will digress further if anyone shows interest but the market has to be determined. First, who buys electric bikes? What is the potential market for the bikes because selling great accessories to a market that has limited growth will surely have that same limited growth. There will be more to it than buying a Clyte kit and putting it on a Wal Mart bike for resale.
Mike
If I got too simple and pedestrian I apologize.

You're definitely right, mvadventure, as I can attest because I came here knowing literally nothing about this stuff, or even how to solder. (Though a minor aside: lead-acid is good for 300 cycles, lithium-polymer is good for 1000+, and a small part of the money is for the charger). That's why I like electricrider; they fully wire the batteries and put connectors on everything so there's no soldering or anything to do; you just plug it in. The other vendors require you to do some work yourself, which forces the market to remain small.

mvadventure said:

If I got too simple and pedestrian I apologize.

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Not at all.
Hey sailor, MV Phoenix here <smile>

The idea for a forum(s) is management support for EV business... it's all good. For example, how `bout a Marketing firm that specializes in EV marketing... after all, just throwing up pages on the web isn't necessarily going to drive a lot of business through your door.

One example for guerilla marketing (read cheap, targetted) that I used to enjoy doing:

Promoting an online service for sailors... friendly with an area marine book store... Owner let me stuff the magazines/rack with my flyer that promoted the service <hehe>

Dunno if there's much out there (yet) in EV mags, but you get the idea.

Fair winds and following seas.

Lock
(Definition of a pier: Harbour feature that goes crack or crunch when hit)

CGameProgrammer said:

The other vendors require you to do some work yourself, which forces the market to remain small.

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No kidding. And bike shops turning away the biz when they could easily learn to do it themselves, or hire the talent. That just smells... of opportunity.

tks

Lock

very interested here,
I know the market is there but there isn't anyone capable of supplying decent product in a timely fashion.

29a said:

I know the market is there but there isn't anyone capable of supplying decent product in a timely fashion.

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NO KIDDING!
Many Ev'ers seem more interested in replicating the performance of the 20th-century auto. I doubt Henry Dix cared that the car that ran him over didn't have a tail-pipe (first death by auto, NYC, 1899, and yes, it was an electric).

At the other end of the EV scale (two wheels), there *are* folks capable of supplying *crap* EVs to ignorant consumers. I have seen Yongkang product rusting on the showroom floor.

Fast buck syndrome.

And *that's* a real problem for the EV community IMHO.

Folks being bitten will pass on the ill will to all they complain too. Can't complain to the fast buck artists, `cause they'll be outta the market quick rather than honour all the warranty claims as they start rolling in.

Yah, suppliers too (those that are mostly in the game for the fast buck) need to be educated as well.

Lock

OK, key word business. Next word successful. Concept is profit and initial goal is to have enough business to make a profit and remain in business.

Cheapo Chinese goods won't do but two out of three but quality products, wherever they are made, will sell. Woodworking has been my avocation for many years and I have a fairly complete workshop. A quick stroll through it and you'll see great names like Porter Cable, Ridgid, Craftsman, Freud, etc. Each and every one of those manufacturers produces product made in China.

If you have a better product or a better way of marketing the same product as everyone else, you will sell that product. In the ebike or ecar business there is a lack of readily available printed material. Imagine if you will that someone sees you riding your electric bike/trike/scooter up a hill and notices that you're not only not sweating, you're not even pedaling. Now, today, in 2007, odds are they have no clue how you're doing it, have never heard of a hub motor, didn't think a few SLA or power tool batteries could do that and have less clue as to how to get one themselves.

I have kin that own a sporting goods store and I've approached them twice in the past ten years about putting ebikes in the store. Both times I've been told no, they don't think there is a market. Mind now that I'm the one financing the ebikes, no cost to the store. The store sells roller blades, skateboards, surfboards and all related accessories but they don't think there is an ebike market. In this case, and others, even potential profit can't open a closed mind. Walmart with their cheapo ebikes harms the market as folks see that, see it doesn't do more than a toy would and dismisses the product and products like it. Quality product will develop a quality market.

Mostly, business is fun. I believe that as soon as it gets to the point where you can't wait to get up in the morning, don't want to quit in the evening and can't remember the last time you even took a day off then you'll have a successful business. Money is part of it but far from the only part. Working your ideas, watching them bear fruit, overcoming adversity, beating the competition, this is FUN.

Fortunately in the ebike business there are a few success stories out there and they deserve to be studied. You determine your destiny and that destiny starts with a goal and a business plan.
Mike

mvadventure said:

I believe that as soon as it gets to the point where you can't wait to get up in the morning, don't want to quit in the evening and can't remember the last time you even took a day off then you'll have a successful business.

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And no life <grin>
Great post Mike. Agree 100%
Biz is the greatest game in the world.
For EVs the marketing needs to be an educational process. Not only is there a lot of ignorance out there, there are a lot misconceptions and some bad experiences...

Lock

Lock said:

mvadventure said:

I believe that as soon as it gets to the point where you can't wait to get up in the morning, don't want to quit in the evening and can't remember the last time you even took a day off then you'll have a successful business.

Click to expand...

And no life <grin>
Great post Mike. Agree 100%
Biz is the greatest game in the world.
For EVs the marketing needs to be an educational process. Not only is there a lot of ignorance out there, there are a lot misconceptions and some bad experiences...

Lock

Click to expand...

Based on the anecdotal evidence presented, I suggest asking the admins for a new section. But, if you want to get more scientific, you could post a poll...

I think it is a great idea. But I am not too bright.

:lol:

Tyler said:

Based on the anecdotal evidence presented, I suggest asking the admins for a new section. But, if you want to get more scientific, you could post a poll...
I think it is a great idea. But I am not too bright.
:lol:

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Oh, I doubt that Tyler. Besides, you can beat most of the world out there just by being better informed (and with hard work). And by being better at politics.

Economics teaches that profits come from "imperfect markets", where some folks (the winners) know more than the others "losers"...

The growth of the www has helped level the playing field a bit, but also makes knowledge a bit easier to get too. The diff. is just in good research, sadly something often lacking in many business plans.

Re poll:
I have worked inside the Market Research biz too (now THERE's a license to print money), and that biz splits itself into qualitative and quanitative, one being things like polls and the other things like focus groups.

There are pros and cons to each, but I do know that these studies need to be carefully crafted, words, phrases, everything, otherwise results are easily skewed.

This thread is just a little qualitative work, before I even bother the good people that host ES EV forums!

I don't expect folks to chime in to say they're *not* interested, but a few more *yes* expressions might be enough.

tks for the response.

Lock

Lock said:

I have worked inside the Market Research biz too (now THERE's a license to print money)

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Boy howdy.

TylerDurden said:

Based on the anecdotal evidence presented, I suggest asking the admins for a new section. But, if you want to get more scientific, you could post a poll...

I think it is a great idea. But I am not too bright.

:lol:

Click to expand...

Sounds like a no-brianer to me

ebikes in canada are now legal. these are going to be very very big.

newbie electric rider said:

ebikes in canada are now legal. these are going to be very very big.

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Howdy newbie... FYI power-assist on pedal bikes has been legal in BC for a few years, legal in Ontario since last fall, and I'm not sure of the other provinces...

Yah, very very big, but a big *what*?

For recent years in Ontario there has already been product around, but quality? support? ... not so much.

Watt to do about the sales folks that're just buying containers from YongKang, offering 30-day warranties?

At 406/48 volt, you are E-Legal, like me... happy with that?

Lock
(just down the road from you)

Hi Lock, I know I'm e-llegal, the new brain drain has a govener of sorts to control the speed, so that would baffle the cops who i am sure are going to hassle ebike riders. I think it would be a good idea, to come up with a standard introduction type of kit, completely complying with all the laws, then from there customers would be interested in the upgrades, various battery power/. As in big , I see ebikes taking half a car off the roads, for every house. During the spring summer fall months anyways. I think the hub motor is the way to go for the simplicity and stealth of it, (sorry Randy, your bike is great, and that configuration will be sure to take off in the future when the ebikes are more common and acceptable ), btw, i tried to order 10 kits from Joshua, and i hope they are coming in, he was moving so...who know. Every one that has tried the bike has come back with a big smile on there face. One way to sell these would be to do up 10 demo units and let people try them for a week, just for trips to store, bike paths, then take orders and deposits, and go from there.

It would be great if EV was the wave of the immediate future or even the near future but I simply can't see it without good market development and that is going to be a challenge. It's going to have to grow community by community and it's not going to take long for the powers that be to figure out that lots of potential taxes aren't being paid.

Right now what propels a lot of us is the "EV Grin" and I fully understand, I think, the importance of it. The grin however isn't going to solve Mat Gruber's problem or put a lot more bikes on the road. What may make even a EV bike more user friendly will be long range no maintenance batteries that will propel the bike at 25-35 MPH for up to fifty miles. Further I don't think price is going to be a huge factor. Community acceptance however will be and that is a marketing challenge.

If I was still willing to go to work everyday, which I really don't want to do, the first thing I'd do is open a high end shop with a couple of really nice lines with bikes like the ZVO and a few kits by Crystallyte or Bionic, maybe both with bikes for the potential customers to choose. A couple of astute sales staff, someone to answer the phone and help work the counter and answer questions and a marketing person to organize ebike/escooter clubs and rides.

There are a lot of chinese brands out there and a lot of garbage. A 24 volt bike with a 12 - 15 MPH top end and a 7 mile range will wind up in the back of the garage, uncharged, unused and drawing interest away from the potential of the market. Active marketing with quality products, quality service and friendly helpful staff can and will make a difference. This however is expensive and will take time and capital to hold out until a market develops.

IMHO, marketed properly with quality products that will retail for under 3K can be developed into the new fast food franchise opportunity. Key words will be quality marketing, quality products.

Think for just a minute of the impression that could be made if five or six riders attended a Chamber of Commerce meeting and were able to overcome the negative attitudes with positive reinforcement. Provide a salesman to attend the traffic schools for folks who have had their licenses taken away and still need to get to work.

But, think about it. How many members are even on this forum? It's not like there are a lot of good ebike forums out there, this is the best and it's way short of potential members. You have to look for Endless-sphere and once found there are fewer than twenty or twenty five serious and regular contributors. These twenty or so though are the folks that need to be working in the field making the business grow. Also, most of them are in Canada where it's too damn cold to breathe eight months a year.

This is turning into one of my rants so I'll let it go. But, if I wanted to go back to work I'd be willing to dump a hundred K or whatever it took just to see if I could win. As it is I ride my ebike to the golf course, grocery store and wherever I want to go as long as I stay within my comfortable 16 - 18 mile range. Less if I'm in a hurry. But I have the EV Grin and really enjoy my bike. One advantage of going slow is I can still listen to the radio.

Mike, in the middle of a great potential market

OK lets get serious
there is a lot of peeps that think they can make money
I'd like and can easily move twenty motors and controllers (cash)
who else is in
"maybe we can get a full container"

newbie electric rider said:

Hi Lock, I know I'm e-llegal, the new brain drain has a govener of sorts to control the speed, so that would baffle the cops who i am sure are going to hassle ebike riders.

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Hey newbie... Yah, cops are people too, and some days some of `em will want to "kick the dog"... but I know that in my burg they are dealing with a lot of violence and drugs and stupid human tricks performed by auto, so I think for most the PA bikes will be well down on their list of priorities...

I am not a gambler, but have no problems making educated guesses and taking calculated risks... no problem with losing some battles as long as the war is won <grin>

I think it would be a good idea, to come up with a standard introduction type of kit, completely complying with all the laws, then from there customers would be interested in the upgrades, various battery power.

Click to expand...

Sounds good to me. Except for compliance, where the law is based on ignorance and fear...

As in big , I see ebikes taking half a car off the roads, for every house. During the spring summer fall months anyways.

Click to expand...

Agree. ebikes and scoots are not a panacea... But as an urban creature myself, I have plenty of transport options when the weather or other factors (distance, heavy cargo) are inconvenient for the little ev.

I think the hub motor is the way to go for the simplicity and stealth of it

Click to expand...

Another word for "simplicity" might be *reliability*... right up there with safety and comfort in vehicle design.

btw, i tried to order 10 kits from Joshua, and i hope they are coming in, he was moving so...who know.

Click to expand...

I was introduced to Joshua some years ago by ScooterGuy (hey David... you here??? Note to self. Must get David aboard here...)

It has always been a pleasure and an education to drop buy Joshuas for a visit. I believe he is one of the Good Guys, and you will not be disappointed in any dealings with J.

Every one that has tried the bike has come back with a big smile on there face.

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Heck yes. I have handed the Currie scoot over to dozens and dozens of folks over the years. Many complete strangers. As young as ten years old, and one gent that would only admit to being in his seventies...

100% EV Grins upon return from their little EV trips, in my experience.

I have seen (and I have a witness) one young Toronto bike courier ( so, a pedal bike pro) literally jumping up and down at the prospect of her third trip around the block on the Currie scoot.

One way to sell these would be to do up 10 demo units and let people try them for a week, just for trips to store, bike paths, then take orders and deposits, and go from there.

Click to expand...

Proceed!
Financing (maybe) here:
http://www.prosper.com/

Lock

mvadventure said:

This is turning into one of my rants so I'll let it go.

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Rant on Sir. You are preaching to the converted, but with peer review, I hope our arguments can only be made stronger...

Community by community

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, absolutely.

For example, in my community of five million souls or so, the city is criss-crossed by an electric subway system, with many dozens of stations. There are still many routes serviced by electric street cars. And the transit system maintains several service yards too...

It seems to me that this transit system is well situated to service a fleet of little electric vehicles... Where they might offer fast charging stations and quick battery swaps.

This would remove concerns about the limited range afforded by todays battery packs, and provide professional monitoring of battery "wear", and responsible recycling of spent batts as well.

Finally, professional maintenance, where humans mostly are unwilling or unable to maintain their own vehicles, even those as simple as the pedal bicycle...

For these reasons, I advocate for a public-owned fleet of PA bikes... well, PA kick scoots, to be honest.

Tks

Lock

Joking aside, to the general public, and I'll get even more specific in a moment, an ebike is a bike and as such subject to all the disadvantages of a bike.

A ride through my community on the way to the golf course, if I see a fellow golfer, may generate a comment or two about the bike. Simple things such as "does that thing have a motor? You were going awfully fast". Not once has anyone asked where they could get one. A couple questions re cost but nothing else. I don't think there have even been questions about range.

Yesterday the only other ebiker I know of in the community, one of the groundskeepers, did ask me where I got mine. It seems his bike is broken, apparently he hit a curb or something and damaged a wheel and the battery pack and knows not where to take it.

He's right in not knowing. THERE IS NOWHERE to take it. The guy he bought it from is long gone from doing business out of his garage, the system is four years old and he's using the original SLA's! I told him to borrow a truck and bring it buy my house next week. This guy is an excellent groundskeeper, he's worked at our club for several years and is personable, shows up for work every day and can be used on sprinklers, mowers, trimmers and week control. He is not a rocket scientist, he is a regular working person. He has no idea of how to fix his bike. How many more ebikes are in the same condition as his, sitting in the back of that garage lacking simple maintenance to make them go because the owner lacks a place to take it? The LBS will not only laugh at him, they'll charge him twenty bucks just to do so.

Success in this market will demand infrastructure. Cars have gas stations, mechanics and parts suppliers everywhere. Ebikes, except for isolated pockets, have their owners out on their own with maybe a little telephone support. Little wonder it's an unexplored world.

Still, even with community support, even with a local dealer that has road service and lots of parts, even with reliable range, it's going to get cold, it going to get hot, it will rain, it will snow (somewhere, damn sure not here, likely up in Canada or New England where winter lasts all year) and the weather will fail to cooperate.

Endless Sphere has the fanatic's. The business part needs to reach the fans and potential fans. A challenge but hopefully a fun challenge.

One more thing. Our town is blessed with bike paths and parts of town are blessed with "older" people who ride their bikes and trikes to the grocery and drug store errands. This is part of the potential market. Mamma hauling her young'un to the park in her bike trailer is another potential.

There is potential for great fun and great profit but all will take great work.
Mike

Outstanding analysis, mvadv.