"Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

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ebuilder   10 kW

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 03 2022 8:05pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 03 2022 7:41pm
“Scientists are divided” about if global warming is mainly cause by humans, yea, but like 97% agree.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti ... sus_points

Considering how many conspiracy goofs are around the days :shock: (looking at u) I will stay with the large large majority.

I can’t find what percent believe the world is flat
Here's the good news for society. You can't manifest any needless change, aka you are irrelevant as I explained which went over your head.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 03 2022 8:20pm

Chalo wrote:
Sep 03 2022 8:04pm
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 03 2022 3:05pm
First, you probably don't know about FMVSS...HIC etc, but Grandma wouldn't survive in her 1000 lb Tesla in a hard frontal or side impact crash. There goes Grandma and we all love Grandma.
Grammy will be fine driving past her age of competency in a 1000 lb vehicle, if all the other personal vehicles are 1000 lbs or less (no exceptions for rich people, and no rich people because we're prioritizing for life quality instead of consumption), and all the heavier road going commercial vehicles are restricted by hardware to under 20 mph. That's what I'm talking about.

Socialism as practiced by the Soviets was a failed experiment, but we have thriving socialist countries today with much happier populations than ours. "Communism with Chinese characteristics" (basically capitalism with central economic planning) seems to be kicking our ass in other ways.

American capitalism is proving to be a failed experiment.
Good news for society Chalo is, as bad as Joe Biden is as president, you would be worse...lol.
Dumb Joe tries to ruin America with onerous polices but if you were at the helm, it would be Armagedón.
Oh,and I will save your Grandma. She will never own even a 2000 lb car. Ever. You are welcome. Granny gets to live. You can't legislate truck sizes at 1000 lbs GVW either or 20mph top speed. Fantasy land which you may like.

As to Capitalism. It is a failed experiment for you. Not for me. I have prospered. Survival of the fittest.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hillhater » Sep 03 2022 8:34pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 03 2022 2:24pm
We know we are altering the atmosphere content and it is causing global warming. We see the results.
NO !….you do not “know” we are altering the atmosphere….you are being TOLD that so frequently that now you believe it !
You have not personally measured the anthropogenic contribution to changes in the atmosphere , you have simply accepted what others have told you. And those results you see,…again you are being TOLD are caused by human contributions, when thy can equally be explained by other causes.
You have allowed yourself to be indoctrinated into the cult of anti science !
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hillhater » Sep 03 2022 8:40pm

Chalo wrote:
Sep 03 2022 12:33pm

Grossly overweight and overpowered personal cars, whatever power source they run on, are a problem that must end unless the goal is to kill us all. An actual genius would understand and acknowledge this.
You are irrationally paranoid about vehicles killing everybody !
That is the reasoning of an unstable mind…
…..and you do not have to be an “actual genius” to realise that !
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 03 2022 8:44pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 03 2022 8:34pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 03 2022 2:24pm
We know we are altering the atmosphere content and it is causing global warming. We see the results.
NO !….you do not “know” we are altering the atmosphere….you are being TOLD that so frequently that now you believe it !
You have not personally measured the anthropogenic contribution to changes in the atmosphere , you have simply accepted what others have told you. And those results you see,…again you are being TOLD are caused by human contributions, when thy can equally be explained by other causes.
You have allowed yourself to be indoctrinated into the cult of anti science !
Tell it Hillhater. But believe your good comments are falling into the abyss of incessant and incurable ignorance, of which there is no cure. That is how people such as Hummina arrive at their false conclusions. They misinterpret the data. It actually started in grade school. Just got worse over time...lol.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 03 2022 8:53pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 03 2022 8:40pm
Chalo wrote:
Sep 03 2022 12:33pm

Grossly overweight and overpowered personal cars, whatever power source they run on, are a problem that must end unless the goal is to kill us all. An actual genius would understand and acknowledge this.
You are irrationally paranoid about vehicles killing everybody !
That is the reasoning of an unstable mind…
…..and you do not have to be an “actual genius” to realise that !
That isn't quite accurate. Chalo is irrational but mostly about Musk and greenhouse gas emissions and has a distorted view about vehicle size as it relates to carbon footprint. Survivability in crashes is about parity of velocity and mass aka if a bicyclist hits another bicyclist, he/she has a better chance of surviving compared to a bicyclist hitting a car. I lost a good friend to the latter and he was an elite rider and never had a chance.
If Chalo understood science better he would understand that all types of ground vehicles combined only account for 10.2% of world energy-related greenhouse gas emissions.
Last edited by ebuilder on Sep 03 2022 9:12pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by nicobie » Sep 03 2022 8:54pm

☝ ebuilder,
"As to Capitalism. It is a failed experiment for you. Not for me. I have prospered. Survival of the fittest."

I also was one of the lucky ones, but that doesn't mean my way is the only way or that my way is best for humanity. Sometimes you have to step back in order to see the forest through the trees.

I don't think it's wise to belittle those less fortunate, as trump has demonstrated, because they can easily rise up and with their $99 3D machine printed ghost guns and shoot grandma.

I firmly believe that's the only reason the USA is allowing liberalizing the cannabis laws. Now you can add 'stoned' to the expression," Keep them barefoot, pregnant and... :mrgreen:
Ask for it by name.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 03 2022 9:03pm

nicobie wrote:
Sep 03 2022 8:54pm


I also was one of the lucky ones, but that doesn't mean my way is the only way or that my way is best for humanity. Sometimes you have to step back in order to see the forest through the trees.

I don't think it's wise to belittle those less fortunate as trump has demonstrated because they can easily rise up and with their $99 3D printed ghost guns shoot grandma.

I firmly believe that's the only reason the USA is allowing liberalizing the cannabis laws. Now you can add 'stoned' to the expression," Keep them barefoot, pregnant and... :mrgreen:
Dumbing down of America is unquestionably a real problem as you describe. Of course, stands to reason that people are less emboldened and have fewer options if uneducated and more easily controlled by the government because they are more dependent...which goes back to the beginning of time and even exists today with the Taliban recapturing Afghanistan which has set back their female population of denying education which is heart breaking because real strides were made in recent years and women became doctors in Afghanistan prior to this regression. Goes back to the time of book burning and witches burned at the steak. Russia and China control the internet as an example. Mind control.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by nicobie » Sep 03 2022 9:10pm

Yep, people in some other countries are truly frocked. But before we start trying to make them in our mirror image don't you think it would be wise to fix our problems first?
Ask for it by name.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 03 2022 9:16pm

nicobie wrote:
Sep 03 2022 9:10pm
Yep, people in some other countries are truly frocked. But before we start trying to make them in our mirror image don't you think it would be wise to fix our problems first?
Speaking of failed experiments and America has been guilty of too many, one is as you say. The utter stupidity of George W. Bush believing he could transform Iraq into a democracy 'in our image' The ignorance and arrogance. No escape plan. As grievous as how Biden pulled out of Afghanistan not listening to his generals.
Its one thing for you and me nicobie to get it wrong, but Washington and the Pentagon have MIT think tanks to draw ideas and probabilities from. Inexcusable really.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sep 03 2022 9:39pm

ebuilder wrote:
Sep 03 2022 8:05pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 03 2022 7:41pm
“Scientists are divided” about if global warming is mainly cause by humans, yea, but like 97% agree.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti ... sus_points

Considering how many conspiracy goofs are around the days :shock: (looking at u) I will stay with the large large majority.

I can’t find what percent believe the world is flat
Here's the good news for society. You can't manifest any needless change, aka you are irrelevant as I explained which went over your head.
u disagree that global warming is being largely caused by humans? It’s a simple question hoping for a simple answer. The large majority of scientist believe we are not irrelevant.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sep 03 2022 9:42pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 03 2022 8:34pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 03 2022 2:24pm
We know we are altering the atmosphere content and it is causing global warming. We see the results.
NO !….you do not “know” we are altering the atmosphere….you are being TOLD that so frequently that now you believe it !
You have not personally measured the anthropogenic contribution to changes in the atmosphere , you have simply accepted what others have told you. And those results you see,…again you are being TOLD are caused by human contributions, when thy can equally be explained by other causes.
You have allowed yourself to be indoctrinated into the cult of anti science !
So u don’t trust what 97% of those who do know what they’re talking about say? Do u believe it’s a conspiracy and they’re all in on it? THEY ARE scientists. To not agree with them would be the anti-science.

Global warming“equally explained by other causes”? Let’s see it. Post the science right here. I wait for u. Not your mouth yapping and just the science please.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hillhater » Sep 03 2022 10:53pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 03 2022 9:42pm

So u don’t trust what 97% of those who do know what they’re talking about say?
……
Ha !.. the mention of that 97% tells me more about your understanding of the subject than you can imagine ! :mrgreen:
Do you actually know where that 97% figure came from ?..
.. or how many “climate scientists” it actually represents ?
Check it out before you dig yourself deeper in a hole .
Global warming“equally explained by other causes”? Let’s see it. .
Here is a starter for you to ponder…
The earth is in an “interglacial” period. IE , still emerging from the last ice age !…
…..what might that mean ?
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sep 03 2022 11:37pm

And I still wait for ur evidence



97% seems to be an exaggeration.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/uhenergy/2 ... hange/amp/

Does this mean global warming isnt caused by humans? Dying to see the evidence. Why won’t u post any?

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hillhater » Sep 04 2022 12:29am

I did ..
But did you even think about it ?
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sep 04 2022 1:20am

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 04 2022 12:29am
I did ..
But did you even think about it ?
I looked back through the thread and don’t see any evidence posted. Did I miss it? Can u post it again?

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 04 2022 7:18am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 03 2022 9:39pm
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 03 2022 8:05pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 03 2022 7:41pm
“Scientists are divided” about if global warming is mainly cause by humans, yea, but like 97% agree.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti ... sus_points

Considering how many conspiracy goofs are around the days :shock: (looking at u) I will stay with the large large majority.

I can’t find what percent believe the world is flat
Here's the good news for society. You can't manifest any needless change, aka you are irrelevant as I explained which went over your head.
u disagree that global warming is being largely caused by humans? It’s a simple question hoping for a simple answer. The large majority of scientist believe we are not irrelevant.
The problem with you and me and perhaps others is, I have made several points that go over your head. You don't understand the issue. Complex issues are multifactorial. They aren't binary and why not easily solved.
One last effort and then I need to leave this thread to let you debate it with others who may or may not understand it better than you.

1. To exist is to pollute. Everybody has a carbon footprint. The earth is a somewhat controlled volume. UV of the sun of course permeates our atmosphere and warms our planet which is the basis for life. Aggregation of combined carbon footprints aka greenhouse gases...the Earth is a large greenhouse...it warms the atmosphere. In this case 1 or 2 degrees in recent recorded history. 20,000 years ago, for unexplained reasons, the world endured a massive Ice Age. Maybe you have heard of it. There were far fewer humans on the planet then and no industry. Then, inexplicably, the planet warmed. Scientists struggle to understand the predicate of the ice age or why the planet warmed. If you ever been to the Great Lakes of Michigan, the great lakes are the result of glaciers melting.

2. Carbon emissions are a percentage of the greenhouse gases. See pie chart below. Only 14% of green house gases is transporation. This is why converting to electric automobiles which is only a subset of that is a boondoggle. Electric cars below 50K miles may even be dirtier in greenhouse gas emissions 'to produce an electric car' because of constituent materials aka batteries. Electric energy isn't clean. Electric cars only store dirty electrical energy.

3. Converting more to solar and wind generated energy, weening off fossil fuel will only make a 'very small dent' in global warming at a huge commercial cost for implementation. In economic terms, this investment has a very low and some would submit ineffectual return on investment. If solar and wind, including converting all to electric transportation would cure global warming, the world would be all over it. Converting to electric cars for example globally is pixie-dust. Nothing. Electricity is still being produced based upon 'dirty' energy. The kind of energy you like to demonize aka coal and fossil fuel.

4. It is technically and economically infeasible to transition to 'so named' green energy aka no. 3 above, precipitously. This would bankrupt the world. The economy and human sustenance works by monetary exchange. Rich people and countries survive and flourish and poor countries populations die and have lower quality of life. Death is immediate and global warming has longer term health consequences.

5. What we need is an 'implementable' energy policy...speaking of America. We don't have one. One of the reasons we don't have one is, 1-4 above but moreover, it wouldn't 'change the world' by any appreciable amount to solve the problem.

6. America is not the biggest polluter. With all our industry, America only accounts for 15% of the carbon footprint. China will not engage or even entertain fanciful aka bankrupting green policies because their economy is struggling to survive and making any kind of an impact on emissions reduction would bankrupt China. China wants to be the preeminent superpower and not die off. Further, China has more engineers per capita than the US and engineers understand cause and effect. They understand that bankrupting green policies will destroy their economy.

7. Above are some basic facts. Implementing green policies will have little effect. That is not to say, they shouldn't be implemented but there has to be a 'global' energy policy. The world won't get on board for economic reasons. America has a $30T fiscal deficit aka we are broke as a nation and yet many legislators want to throw money at a problem that won't solve it. Window dressing. Foo-foo dust. More like politicians pandering to people's fear of survival...guys like you who don't understand the underlying basis of thermodynamics. The world warming is a huge insoluble heat transfer equation. Why is insoluble? Because its like quantum mechanics and uncertainty principle you never studied.

a. Scientists can't predict accurately enough the position of planets within our solar system into the future
b. Scientists don't know the quantifiable net effect of planetary positional change on Earth's climate change short or long term.
c. Scientists don't understand the nexus of planet position relative to anticipated climate change relative to subset of climate change is due to man. We don't know this balance and what contribution is due to man's polluting the planet versus global warming due to planet positional change...just like nobody could predict with any accuracy when Earth would start to warm after coming through the last Ice Age.

Understanding the ice age gives humans a glimpse into a., b. and c. above. But we can't predict climate moving forward with any accuracy relating to the survival of the planet.

Some background:

By the end of the 19th century, scientists had named four ice ages that occurred during the Pleistocene Epoch, which lasted from about 2.6 million years ago until about 11,700 years ago. It wasn't until decades later, however, that researchers realized that these cold periods came with much more regularity.

A major breakthrough in the understanding of ice age cycles came in the 1940s, when Serbian astrophysicist Milutin Milankovitch proposed what became known as the Milankovitch cycles, insights into Earth's movement that are still used to explain climate variation today.

Milankovitch outlined three main ways Earth's orbit varies with respect to the sun, Mark Maslin, a professor of paleoclimatology at University College London, told Live Science. These factors determine how much solar radiation (in other words, heat) reaches the planet.

First, there's the eccentric shape of Earth's orbit around the sun, which varies from nearly circular to elliptical on a 96,000-year cycle. "The reason why it has that bulge is because Jupiter, which is 4% of the mass of our solar system, has a strong gravitational effect, which shifts the Earth's orbit out and then back," Maslin explained.

Second, there's the tilt of Earth, which is the reason we have seasons. The tilted axis of Earth's rotation means one hemisphere is always leaning away from the sun (causing winter) while the other is leaning toward the sun (causing summer). The angle of this tilt varies on a cycle of about 41,000 years, which changes how extreme the seasons are, Maslin said. "If [the axis] is more upright, then of course the summers are going to be less warm and the winter is going to be a little less cold."

Third, there's the wobble of Earth's tilted axis, which moves as if it were a spinning top. "What happens is, the angular momentum of the Earth going round and round very fast once a day causes the axis to wobble around as well," Maslin said. That wobble occurs on a 20,000-year cycle.

Milankovitch identified that orbital conditions for cool summers were especially important precursors to ice ages. "You’re always going to have ice in winter," Maslin said. "To build an ice age, you need to have some of that ice survive through the summer."

But, to transition into an ice age, orbital phenomena alone aren't enough. The actual causation of an ice age is the fundamental feedback in the climate system, Maslin said. Scientists are still teasing apart how various environmental factors influence glaciation and deglaciation, but recent research has suggested that greenhouse gas levels in the atmosphere play an important role.

For instance, scientists at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research (PIK) in Germany have shown that the onsets of past ice ages were triggered mainly by decreases in carbon dioxide and that the dramatic increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, because of human-caused emissions, has likely suppressed the onset of the next ice age for up to 100,000 years.

"Like no other force on the planet, ice ages have shaped the global environment and thereby determined the development of human civilization," Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, then-director of PIK and a co-author of one of those studies, said in a statement in 2016. "For instance, we owe our fertile soil to the last ice age that also carved out today's landscapes, leaving glaciers and rivers behind, forming fjords, moraines and lakes."


In summary, scientists are at a loss to predict whether climate will warm or cool off like it did back in the time of the first or 4th ice age or when the 'next' ice age will occur. We are looking at a snap shot in time. You may not be old but some here remember the "Ozone layer" panic fomented by politicians that was going to kill mankind. It didn't happen.

The reason I don't care to debate this with you further is your responses are very shallow and you don't absorb what I posit. Further, you won't say where you live or your education which colors your perspective which is much different than mine. An engineer and a gardener aren't going to have the same perspective on a subject as complex as thermodynamics. If you live in the Congo as an example, you won't understand the cost of heating a home in Iowa in the winter. Human nature and why divergent opinions exist.
Greenhouse Pie Chart.png
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sep 04 2022 3:02pm

“In summary, scientists are at a loss to predict whether climate will warm or cool off like it did back in the time of the first or 4th ice age or when the 'next' ice age will occur.”

This isn’t true and we know the earth is warming. The milankovich cycles have accurately predicted the climate cycles for millions of years in the past and only need a further explanation related to the last 100,000 years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/100,000-year_problem



Regardless of if u accept the widely accepted models of the past the very recent past heat increase is very much so understood to be caused by increased greenhouse gases and we are forecast to stall (forever?) the next ice age as carbon dioxide levels rise.


There’s no question as to if the temp is increasing or not. It is. The question is how important you think it is to keep co2 levels low to avert possibly going over a tipping point
https://phys.org/news/2022-04-world-per ... tists.html


These aren’t my thoughts and feelings. This is the widespread understanding of those that actually study this. You’re not one of those people and neither am I. We are both gathering info we find. You haven’t posted any evidence showing the commonly held and scientifically supported understandings are wrong.

It comes down to if u believe the science or not, and if I do believe then it comes down to if u care enough to bother making the concessions needed to set us on a safer path. It looks like you trust the scientific understanding but don’t believe it’s possible to avert the dire predictions because it would be too hard to make a switch to elec for the world or too polluting still.

Yea no point talking further and your almost-rocket-scientist degree has launched you into an orbit beyond where I want to venture. You’re in the belt where conspiracy goof YouTube videos circle.
Last edited by Hummina Shadeeba on Sep 04 2022 3:11pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Chalo » Sep 04 2022 3:06pm

ebuilder wrote:
Sep 04 2022 7:18am
1. To exist is to pollute.
Yes, but lifestyle and economic system have radically more effect than existing vs. not existing. The average Nepalese person has 1/50 the resource footprint of the average gringo. If you live like a callously indifferent swine-- driving a pickup truck 20 miles each way from a huge poorly built new house to a refrigerated corporate office, crapping out way too many kids, flying all over the place, buying useless stuff for entertainment-- then you're a wastrel and the world would be much better off without you and your piglets.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by JackFlorey » Sep 04 2022 4:29pm

Realistically you need oil because fabric, lubricants, paints, pesticides, rope, asphalt, drugs, plastics etc are made from it.

Realistically you do not need oil for ground transportation.

Given how important it is, it would be wise to not burn it all up as fast as we can.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by JackFlorey » Sep 04 2022 4:43pm

ebuilder wrote:
Sep 04 2022 7:18am

1. To exist is to pollute. Everybody has a carbon footprint.
Yes. This can be large or small. If it is small enough on average, CO2 levels stop rising.
2. Carbon emissions are a percentage of the greenhouse gases. See pie chart below. Only 14% of green house gases is transporation. This is why converting to electric automobiles which is only a subset of that is a boondoggle.
That's like saying that getting in shape and eating better is a fitness industry boondoggle because you will die someday.

EVs are one part of the solution. There are, of course, others.
3. Converting more to solar and wind generated energy, weening off fossil fuel will only make a 'very small dent' in global warming at a huge commercial cost for implementation.
Wind and solar are far cheaper than coal or nuclear.
4. It is technically and economically infeasible to transition to 'so named' green energy aka no. 3 above, precipitously. This would bankrupt the world.
Agreed. So do it over a few decades rather than precipitously.
5. What we need is an 'implementable' energy policy...speaking of America. We don't have one.
Given that we are in fact switching to renewables that is false.
6. America is not the biggest polluter. With all our industry, America only accounts for 15% of the carbon footprint.
Agreed. The only entity we can fix is ourselves. As we prove out the technology on a large scale, China will follow - as it always has.
7. Above are some basic facts. Implementing green policies will have little effect. That is not to say, they shouldn't be implemented but there has to be a 'global' energy policy.
Since we do not have a world emperor (or even a strong world government) that is unrealistic. What we do have is an assortment of agreements which are starting to have an effect. The Kyoto Protocol is an example of such an agreement.
a. Scientists can't predict accurately enough the position of planets within our solar system into the future
That's like saying scientists can't accurately measure the length of anything. Which is technically true, but so pedantic as to be a useless statement.
In summary, scientists are at a loss to predict whether climate will warm or cool off like it did back in the time of the first or 4th ice age or when the 'next' ice age will occur.
No, they are not.

They have created theories to explain how the climate will warm. They then constructed models to see how much it will warm. They then tested the models by making predictions and seeing if those predictions were accurate. They have been. Thus they have validated their theories.

This is how science works.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hillhater » Sep 04 2022 6:02pm

Chalo wrote:
Sep 04 2022 3:06pm
…..The average Nepalese person has 1/50 the resource footprint of the average gringo. If you live like a callously indifferent swine-- driving a pickup truck 20 miles each way from a huge poorly built new house to a refrigerated corporate office, crapping out way too many kids, flying all over the place, buying useless stuff for entertainment-- then you're a wastrel and the world would be much better off without you and your piglets.
I think you would be much more content if you moved to Nepal and lived their lifestyle !….
… but just maybe… you prefer to stay put and benefit from some of those advantages that advanced society, cheap transport, and fossil fuels, ..give you ?
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hillhater » Sep 04 2022 6:24pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Sep 04 2022 4:43pm
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 04 2022 7:18am
1. To exist is to pollute. Everybody has a carbon footprint.
Yes. This can be large or small. If it is small enough on average, CO2 levels stop rising.
Thats just theory,..
.. in practice,..the worldwide covid shutdown, dramatically reducing travel and industry, beyond any level you could practically tolerate permantly,.didnt even register a minor blip on the rate of CO2 increase !
JackFlorey wrote:
Sep 04 2022 4:43pm
In summary, scientists are at a loss to predict whether climate will warm or cool off like it did back in the time of the first or 4th ice age or when the 'next' ice age will occur.
No, they are not.
They have created theories to explain how the climate will warm. They then constructed models to see how much it will warm. They then tested the models by making predictions and seeing if those predictions were accurate. They have been. Thus they have validated their theories.

This is how science works
And that is how theories are disproven !
All the climate predictions have been wildly INACCURATE, predicting much bigger increases than any that have actually been recorded ( even allowing for the “adjustments” made to raw temp data !) and even after multiple revisions of the models .
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nicobie   1.21 GW

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by nicobie » Sep 04 2022 6:26pm

😇

Remember, No blatant insults allowed.

If you can't agree to disagree, I'll do it for you.
Ask for it by name.

my eTownie build thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=23701
Magazine article https://www.electricbike.com/nicks-etownie/

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12447
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hillhater » Sep 04 2022 6:36pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 04 2022 3:02pm

……. the very recent past heat increase is very much so understood to be caused by increased greenhouse gases and we are forecast to stall (forever?) the next ice age as carbon dioxide levels rise.
Its odd then that previous ice ages were not prevented by much higher (extreemly high) CO2 levels ?
There’s no question as to if the temp is increasing or not. It is. The question is how important you think it is to keep co2 levels low to avert possibly going over a tipping point
https://phys.org/news/2022-04-world-per ... tists.html
NO !.. the question is what are the drivers of any temperature increase (or decrease),
Rather than to just blindly accept the theory that it is is all down to man made CO2 !
….You’re in the belt where conspiracy goof YouTube videos circle.
…so are you ! :wink:
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