"Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Chalo » Sep 04 2022 11:18pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 04 2022 6:02pm
Chalo wrote:
Sep 04 2022 3:06pm
…..The average Nepalese person has 1/50 the resource footprint of the average gringo. If you live like a callously indifferent swine-- driving a pickup truck 20 miles each way from a huge poorly built new house to a refrigerated corporate office, crapping out way too many kids, flying all over the place, buying useless stuff for entertainment-- then you're a wastrel and the world would be much better off without you and your piglets.
I think you would be much more content if you moved to Nepal and lived their lifestyle !….
… but just maybe… you prefer to stay put and benefit from some of those advantages that advanced society, cheap transport, and fossil fuels, ..give you ?
The only reason I remain in this stupid, toxic country is the people and community I would have to give up if I relocated. It's for sure not the gawdawful road system, commercial blight, crass materialism, corporate propaganda etc. which I'm only too eager to put behind me.
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hillhater » Sep 05 2022 12:31am

:shock: ?…are You suggesting that other countries, such as Nepal, do not have friendly people and communities ?
But of course you may not find it so easy to cycle around Nepal, as its a bit hillier than Austin and the roads/tracks are a little rough !
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by JackFlorey » Sep 05 2022 1:26am

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 04 2022 6:24pm
Thats just theory
Nope. That's math.
And that is how theories are disproven !
All the climate predictions have been wildly INACCURATE,
Nope. Every IPCC prediction since 1990 has been fairly accurate, and they have been becoming more so all the time. Even earlier predictions have been fairly accurate.

Sawyer, 1973 - predicted warming of .6C by 2000, actual warming between .51 and .56C. 90% accurate.

Hansen 1981 - 74% accurate.

IPCC 1990 - predicted warming of 1C over 1970-2016. Actual is .85C. 85% accurate.

IPCC 2001 - 86% accurate.

IPCC 2007 - 86% accurate.

For a simple comparison between a climate scientist's predictions and a climate change denier predictions, consider this graph of NASA scientist James Hansen's predictions vs climate change denier Richard Lindzen. Which one do you think you'd lean towards?
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by JackFlorey » Sep 05 2022 1:42am

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 04 2022 6:36pm
Rather than to just blindly accept the theory that it is is all down to man made CO2 !
No one has claimed "it's all down to man made CO2." For example, a smaller percentage of the forcing is due to anthropogenic methane releases.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ilu » Sep 05 2022 3:10am


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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 05 2022 5:47am

One thing to remember, the earth was hotter but we were not here. Supposed to be moving into a ice age we are not. As the Sun get older it get's bigger and hotter. We will cause a run away methane event, this will drastically reduce our numbers. Oil and gas can be replaced, we just don't want to spend the money.
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 6:21am

JackFlorey wrote:
Sep 05 2022 1:26am
Hillhater wrote:
Sep 04 2022 6:24pm
Thats just theory
Nope. That's math.
And that is how theories are disproven !
All the climate predictions have been wildly INACCURATE,
Nope. Every IPCC prediction since 1990 has been fairly accurate, and they have been becoming more so all the time. Even earlier predictions have been fairly accurate.

Sawyer, 1973 - predicted warming of .6C by 2000, actual warming between .51 and .56C. 90% accurate.

Hansen 1981 - 74% accurate.

IPCC 1990 - predicted warming of 1C over 1970-2016. Actual is .85C. 85% accurate.

IPCC 2001 - 86% accurate.

IPCC 2007 - 86% accurate.

For a simple comparison between a climate scientist's predictions and a climate change denier predictions, consider this graph of NASA scientist James Hansen's predictions vs climate change denier Richard Lindzen. Which one do you think you'd lean towards?
Jack,
How does the 'world' reduce the warming trend? You have the floor.
You are pretty quick to 'anecdotally' rebut assertions in this thread. Not really what the world needs. We need a roadmap that 'the entire world signs up to.' Also, would be helpful to show your work. No fairy tales.

Oh, and cutting the world's population by 25% and removing industry from the planet are off the table.
People who experience sub zero termperatures in north America and Canada refuse to live in igloo's or ice caves like our ancestors. Putting all those solar panels on top of people's houses that get wiped out in the first springtime hail storm connected to big expensive storage batteries that don't have much energy to store because the sun doesn't shine in the winter of northern states, they aren't much help either. And that multimillion dollar windmill in front other than being a huge eyesore and making a ridiculous amount on noise keeping neighbors from their beauty sleep? It keeps chopping in half all the electric BMW's that drive too close. People just haven't adjusted to the 'new norm' quite yet.

Switching to electric automobiles 'for the world'...passenger cars account for 45% of the world's transportation vehicles X 14% which is the contribution of ground transportation to emissions in the world and transitioning to Electric cars powered by coal and fossil fuel generated Electricity 'may be' a 15% reduction in green house gas emission factoring in all the CO2 required to build EV's which is more than gas powered vehicles.

Math you like to omit:
.45 X.14 X .15 X World Carbon Emissions = 0.943% or less than 1% of 'World' C02 by America 'and the World' transitioning to all Electric cars.
This of course denies the economic strife of everybody tossing out their gas cars and buying electric vehicles they can't afford.

Few dispute the warming trend. Issue is...how to reverse it with the current population in the post-industrial age.
Reduction in gluttony for example Chalo likes to quote and btw, I agree with him, human's are not only barbaric but gluttonous by our DNA...but there goes that ideological non-value added part of the tree hugging equation...the very same people who denigrate Capitalism, which is a pure analog to survival. Reducing gluttony, 'won't make a dent' in global warming. People who consider this problem like Chalo who concededly is not a light thinker, invariably fall victim to believing that global warming correlates to consumerism which is maybe only 5-10% of the problem...if human's are going to live with a modicum of rudimentary energy supply...like heating homes in the midwest of America in winter...even if they don't drive their trucks or ride their snowmobiles into town for food or if vehicles of this ilk were ever manufactured.

So Jack, you have the floor. Give us a paragraph of how the 'world' not just America has to change. America will never be Napal Chalo likes to quote even though Napal due to poverty may even get it more correct in the grand scheme as wealth can be as much a scourge as a benefit to survival.

PS. Thanks ilu for that link. Perspective. Would love to see same data on preceding 3 ice ages...not just the last 20,000 years. For the audience that wonders why this matters, every time Earth goes into a deep freeze aka 'another Ice Age', the Earth warms. Yes, this time man's carbon footprint is abetting the warming trend. But predating man having much of a carbon footprint, the same climate cycle repeated itself, again and again and again.
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 7:36am

ZeroEm wrote:
Sep 05 2022 5:47am
One thing to remember, the earth was hotter but we were not here. Supposed to be moving into a ice age we are not. As the Sun get older it get's bigger and hotter. We will cause a run away methane event, this will drastically reduce our numbers. Oil and gas can be replaced, we just don't want to spend the money.
Spending money to transition off fossil fuel and coal isn't elective. People can't spend money they don't have.
Most with $5 million in the bank would drive a Lexus instead of a Honda. Most people on planet earth aren't rich. Most can't afford a Lexus and barely afford a Honda. Some can't afford a car. Some can and choose not to.
People believe Electrical energy is clean. It is mostly dirty and is generated by the very same energy that is demonized by the left that flunked math in school.

The average American has $90,460 in debt, according to a 2021 CNBC report:

https://www.debt.org/faqs/americans-in- ... ographics/

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by JackFlorey » Sep 05 2022 9:26am

ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 6:21am
Jack,
How does the 'world' reduce the warming trend? You have the floor.
Via:
Reduction of global warming gases (mainly CO2 and methane)
Reduction of deforestation
Reduction of land-use patterns that cause albedo reductions
People who experience sub zero termperatures in north America and Canada refuse to live in igloo's or ice caves like our ancestors.
Sounds like you are trying to make the argument that "since some people will benefit from warming, it's not always a bad thing." That's absolutely true. But since we have a society that is based on adapting to NORMAL (not very rapid) changes in climate - and since the biosphere relies on the same - those changes are going to have an overwhelmingly negative effect to both us and the biosphere. Think mass extinctions.
Putting all those solar panels on top of people's houses that get wiped out in the first springtime hail storm
PV panels are rated for hail.
connected to big expensive storage batteries that don't have much energy to store because the sun doesn't shine in the winter of northern states
The sun doesn't shine in the winter? The sun shines in the winter everywhere between the two Arctic circles - and the vast majority of people live outside the Arctic circles.

If you want to be taken seriously, perhaps get the basics right.
It keeps chopping in half all the electric BMW's that drive too close.
Ha!
Switching to electric automobiles 'for the world'...passenger cars account for 45% of the world's transportation vehicles X 14% which is the contribution of ground transportation to emissions in the world and transitioning to Electric cars powered by coal and fossil fuel generated Electricity
Why on Earth would you do that? Transition to EV's powered by wind and solar. They really are the cheapest form of power. Their one problem is they are intermittent; they don't generate power all the time. Since EVs don't need to be charged all the time, they are a perfect match.
but there goes that ideological non-value added part of the tree hugging equation...the very same people who denigrate Capitalism
You are watching too much FOX News. The best argument for switching to renewables is profit.
So Jack, you have the floor. Give us a paragraph of how the 'world' not just America has to change.
Changes:

Catenaries for long distance EV trucking
Build out of solar and wind
Build out of grid scale storage
Build out of nuclear base load plants (note that this takes decades so we best start now)
Buildout of HTGR's for hydrogen production (even longer timeframes)
Balance of power from natural gas and eventually biogas
Transition to thermal solar for cement manufacture
Use of second life EV batteries for distributed storage (solves two problems at once)

For starters.
America will never be Napal Chalo likes to quote even though Napal
Nepal, not Napal. No one says we have to be Nepal. What would be great is to get our fossil-based energy usage per capita down to near that of the Nepalese.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Sep 05 2022 10:43am

ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 7:36am
People believe Electrical energy is clean. It is mostly dirty and is generated by the very same energy that is demonized by the left that flunked math in school.
Hey buddy.

If you uh, wanna be taken seriously, you might not wanna paint people who disagree with you as "DA LEFT", especially when coal power causes Up to 1.37 Million cases of Lung cancer and thus, is enormously expensive in many, many other ways.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 10:48am

Jack,
Sounds like you have a clear vision for saving the planet.
Why isn't the world on board if this roadmap is so sound?
I will even give you a softball speaking of MSNBC and your favorite Joy Reid where you get your news facts from... What is the probability all the things you believe that should be implemented will occur in time to save the planet? Have you spoken to President Xi lately or Putin or Kim? Btw, don't bother calling Zelenskiy. He is worried about not having any population left in the next couple of years so he likely won't be objective. You could ask Putin also about these chances. No harm in calling Ebrahim Raisi although he may have his hands full with the Nuclear Treaty. How about Abdul Ghani Baradar, latest leader of the Taliban the US consented to get released from jail in 2018 from Pakistan? I am sure he would like to see your plan and talk turkey about saving Afghanistan.

I am sure all will be on board. Your best bet I believe hands down however is Bill Nye the Science Guy. He will agree with you and between the two of you, I believe your energy policy has a real shot although you have haven't discussed funding yet...or timeline. Wonder why those small details never get mentioned? I know. They have classes for that.

Btw, with 'your vision' of imminent decimation of human's and presumably animals we will eat to stay alive and cook for thermal warming when Armagedón strikes, what is your timeline for the end of humanity? I want to prepare so I can get my sock drawer rearranged. Better to be safe than sorry.
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 10:51am

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING wrote:
Sep 05 2022 10:43am
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 7:36am
People believe Electrical energy is clean. It is mostly dirty and is generated by the very same energy that is demonized by the left that flunked math in school.
Hey buddy.

If you uh, wanna be taken seriously, you might not wanna paint people who disagree with you as "DA LEFT", especially when coal power causes Up to 1.37 Million cases of Lung cancer and thus, is enormously expensive in many, many other ways.
You mean you don't take me seriously? I'm crushed. Sounds like a philosophical conundrum.
Speaking of coal, lung cancer and the left, best to have this debate with Joe Manchin. Write him a letter and give him a stern talking to. He's a democrat from a coal state. Talk about your dilemmas. He handles it pretty well though. Or does he? Your call.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sep 05 2022 11:07am

JackFlorey wrote:
Sep 05 2022 9:26am
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 6:21am
People who experience sub zero termperatures in north America and Canada refuse to live in igloo's or ice caves like our ancestors.
Sounds like you are trying to make the argument that "since some people will benefit from warming, it's not always a bad thing." That's absolutely true.
I think he’s saying someone who is economically poor and isolated (off the grid)isn’t going to give up their propane heater unless it’s replaced by an equally cheap and effective substitute. I agree. To co-op EVERYONE the solution needs to be just as convenient and cheap as burning.

Trying to transfer away from something as deeply rooted to our history as sitting around a campfire.. it better be a good substitute or it’s not going to happen.


And the politicians as said have their own seemingly bigger problems. They and their constituents aren’t interested in fighting an invisible boogeyman.

I feel like I’m on the cusp of civilization. That’s been said before but these next coming generations have obstacles like never before.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 11:16am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 05 2022 11:07am
JackFlorey wrote:
Sep 05 2022 9:26am
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 6:21am
People who experience sub zero termperatures in north America and Canada refuse to live in igloo's or ice caves like our ancestors.
Sounds like you are trying to make the argument that "since some people will benefit from warming, it's not always a bad thing." That's absolutely true.
I think he’s saying someone who is economically poor and isolated (off the grid)isn’t going to give up their propane heater unless it’s replaced by an equally cheap and effective substitute. I agree. To co-op EVERYONE the solution needs to be just as convenient and cheap as burning.

Trying to transfer away from something as deeply rooted to our history as sitting around a campfire.. it better be a good substitute or it’s not going to happen.


And the politicians have their own seemingly bigger problems. They and their constituents aren’t interested in fighting an invisible boogeyman.

I feel like I’m on the cusp of civilization. Been said before but these next coming generations have obstacles like never before.
The larger discussion is, human's had a theoretical starting point in the Earth's history. We may have an end point as well even though the planet may carry on, on some degraded level without humans. I believe personally and btw, this is only opinion but extrapolating from human nature, Earth has a higher probability of death and destruction from nuclear weapons than burning up due to global warming although I believe the latter to be real and unclear if much of the world will be on board to do much about it.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sep 05 2022 11:28am

global warming will exasperate all of human’s problems nuclear Armageddon potential included.

(I think I’m being repeatedly signed-out of my account here and think it’s by the admin due to my being in this convo)

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 11:31am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 05 2022 11:28am
global warming will exasperate all of human’s problems nuclear Armageddon potential included.

(I think I’m being repeatedly signed-out of my account here and think it’s by the admin due to my being in this convo)
Hummina. I am sorry about that if true and I have no hand in it. I am a first amendment guy and believe in free speech and I like to debate your opinion. The only road to the truth is expression of thought, debate and understanding the counterpoint.
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Chalo » Sep 05 2022 11:36am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 05 2022 11:28am
(I think I’m being repeatedly signed-out of my account here and think it’s by the admin due to my being in this convo)
If you're using WiFi or cell data, it's probably your device being indecisive about which access point to use.
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by eMark » Sep 05 2022 1:05pm

At least we all agree that we all would be better off using less gas, oil and coal ... :bigthumb:
(although some may still want to debate whether we would be better off) and so it goes
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 1:38pm

eMark wrote:
Sep 05 2022 1:05pm
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 6:21am
Reduction in gluttony for example Chalo likes to quote and btw, I agree with him, human's are not only barbaric but gluttonous by our DNA...but there goes that ideological non-value added part of the tree hugging equation...the very same people who denigrate Capitalism, which is a pure analog to survival.
Do we know whether ebuilder is being sarcastic, serious, tongue-in-cheek or all three ... :wink:

Since it's debateable whether or not Capitalism is a "pure analog" to the survival of this planet his quip/jest results in what one might assume is a similar tongue-in-cheek counter reply by JackFlorey
JackFlorey wrote:
Sep 05 2022 9:26am
You are watching too much FOX News. The best argument for switching to renewables is profit.
Maybe, both agree if they truly believe the "pure analog" of their words has intangible merit.
“Capitalism, which is a pure analog to survival” and “The best argument for switching to renewables is profit.”
ebuilder continues on, if only for the sake of debate being he's by far the better debater ...
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 11:31am
The only road to the truth is debate.
That's been going on for thousands of years. Like Pontius Pilate jesting, "What is Truth" ?
At least we all agree that we all would be better off using less gas, oil and coal ... :bigthumb:
(although some may still want to debate whether we would be better off) and so it goes

Edit Change: ebuilder edited his original post from "The only road to the truth is detate" to "The only road to the truth is expression of thought, debate and understanding the counterpoint.". Wasn't aware of his edited clarification until after posting.

The problem with "understanding the conterpoint" is that it can be flawed by the blind spot(s) in our own eye. Otherwise the "truth" would have been arrived at long ago.
We can break it down if you wish and would be happy to hear your viewpoint.
Darwinism. Natural selection. Survival of the fittest.
To the victor go the spoils. You know in life, everybody doesn't get a trophy. Most graduating classes have a valedictorian and a captain of the football team and chess club.

Capitalism. Ayn Rand's novel, Atlas Shrugged Greed is good...or, greed is instinctively who/what man is. Why? To survive. Better than survive? To flourish and prosper. Call it a safety margin. Abundance. To the point we may even share with those less fortunate.

When I was a very little kid too many years ago, I was mechanically precocious. I could naturally figure out things others couldn't...or my peers. Something I believed or felt. I was tuning my parent's cars by age 10, building things with motors, electric and gas. My heroes were inventors...Franklin, Edison, Henry Ford etc. I didn't care about football players. My first job as a little kid was at a gas station back when they used to work on cars. On a busy corner in town there were three gas stations on four corners of the same intersection. I worked at a Mobil and the owner hired me. We were in competition with the other two gas stations for survival. What were the metrics of survival:
1. gas price
2. qualityof gas
3. Cleanliness
4. Service
5. Maintenace and car repair aka cost and quality.

Sometimes one or two other service stations would go out of business on the same corner. They would die. Don't want to say when one would die, it would make the owner of the gas station I worked at happy, but believe it did. He might be able to raise gas prices and provide more for his family. Darwin was right. Capitalism. Animals eat one another in the jungle. Within a pack of Wolves there is a dominant Wolf, the alpha.
Survival of the fittest. Capitalism is an analog for 'human nature'. People aren't equal and why socialism doesn't create Apple or Microsoft or Tesla. Socialism doesn't promote exceptionalism. Shaq can't figure out relativity like Einstein could. Einstein was short and couldn't dunk a basketball. Human's don't naturally share. We only share to survive but moreover we compete to survive.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sep 05 2022 1:58pm

50 years from now your kids can have a
seemingly big slice of what is really a sliver of of an over-sliced, too-hot, radioactive, void of anything but crust, inedible pie. Sadly they will likely think they’re winners too.
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by eMark » Sep 05 2022 2:07pm

ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 1:38pm
Shaq can't figure out relativity like Einstein could. Einstein was short and couldn't dunk a basketball. Human's don't naturally share. We only share to survive but moreover we compete to survive.
At least we all agree that we all would be better off using less gas, oil and coal ... :bigthumb:

Although you may still want to debate whether we would be better off. If so whether sarcastic, serious or tongue-in-cheek GO For It ... by stating your "truth" that Capitalists are better off using just as much gas, oil and coal going forward than less going forward.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 2:16pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Sep 05 2022 1:58pm
50 years from now your kids can have a
seemingly big slice of what is really a sliver of of an over-sliced, too-hot, radioactive, void of anything but crust, inedible pie. Sadly they will likely think they’re winners too.
Not sure they will feel that way. Will say this. Pretty sure all the people on this forum or the vast majority had a much better life than those that lived 50 years past. Life used to be very, very hard, medically and a lot of ways.
I do share your concern about the planet warming but I think you may put more stock in humans than I do. I believe we will destroy ourselves before we burn up. Two world wars since 1914 or a little over one hundred years. Yes, we will be burning up along the way but the end will come because of weapons of mass destruction that never existed before. People will use them. We are still proliferating. North Korea and Iran will be on board shortly and Kim is ready to go.
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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 2:20pm

eMark wrote:
Sep 05 2022 2:07pm
ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 1:38pm
Shaq can't figure out relativity like Einstein could. Einstein was short and couldn't dunk a basketball. Human's don't naturally share. We only share to survive but moreover we compete to survive.
At least we all agree that we all would be better off using less gas, oil and coal ... :bigthumb:

Although you may still want to debate whether we would be better off. If so whether sarcastic, serious or tongue-in-cheek GO For It ... by stating your "truth" that Capitalists are better off using just as much gas, oil and coal going forward than less going forward.
Other important thing and I believe Jack mentioned it, we need to conserve petroleum. Its a precious commondity with finite supply. When its gone, its gone.

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Sep 05 2022 2:27pm

ebuilder wrote:
Sep 05 2022 10:48am
Jack,
Sounds like you have a clear vision for saving the planet.
Why isn't the world on board if this roadmap is so sound?
I will even give you a softball speaking of MSNBC and your favorite Joy Reid where you get your news facts from... What is the probability all the things you believe that should be implemented will occur in time to save the planet? Have you spoken to President Xi lately or Putin or Kim? Btw, don't bother calling Zelenskiy. He is worried about not having any population left in the next couple of years so he likely won't be objective. You could ask Putin also about these chances. No harm in calling Ebrahim Raisi although he may have his hands full with the Nuclear Treaty. How about Abdul Ghani Baradar, latest leader of the Taliban the US consented to get released from jail in 2018 from Pakistan? I am sure he would like to see your plan and talk turkey about saving Afghanistan.

I am sure all will be on board. Your best bet I believe hands down however is Bill Nye the Science Guy. He will agree with you and between the two of you, I believe your energy policy has a real shot although you have haven't discussed funding yet...or timeline. Wonder why those small details never get mentioned? I know. They have classes for that.

Btw, with 'your vision' of imminent decimation of human's and presumably animals we will eat to stay alive and cook for thermal warming when Armagedón strikes, what is your timeline for the end of humanity? I want to prepare so I can get my sock drawer rearranged. Better to be safe than sorry.
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This dumbass lmao

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ebuilder   10 kW

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Re: "Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

Post by ebuilder » Sep 05 2022 2:48pm

Honoring your request Mark. You are right.
Last edited by ebuilder on Sep 05 2022 7:43pm, edited 2 times in total.

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