Investor needed for Tesla Scooter!

The Tesla Scooter!
The prototype has been tested for about 1000 miles and still runs smooth. It has a small 110V 1.4KW 3 phase brush-less AC induction motor and a 120V controller that holds up to 100A current. The motor is brush-less and its lifetime is endless, the only thing you can change on the motor is the ball bearings. With a such small motor and weight of 330lbs (150kg) because it has lead batteries, it runs about 35mph (55kmh) on a flat road and more on a downhill. We are in need of a investor for a mass production. We have more than 3 years of experience with electric scooters, two conversions so far. Excellent skills in microprocessor coding with assembler and I'd say electronics genies. The electronics for the Tesla Scooter are self-made from scratch. Every tiny resistor is bought and soldered by us. The technology we use is similar to the one Tesla Roadster uses, the main difference is that they use third party controllers made by Siemens and we made it all from scratch! You can contact me at ackovski@yahoo.com and find the videos at YouTube on the ShotgunEasy's channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ShotgunEasy

So is that a gas powered scooter you converted?
I see you only have one post.
You might want to do a little more reading around on the forums.
Most of us use Brushless 3 phase motors and some of us have hand build custom controlers.
There is allready a huge amount of 3 phase scooters on the market what makes yours differet?

never mind we already found one

Whoa! Your little 6x TO-220 size FET controller uses poly-film caps. lol I respect that you made it work though.

A lot of the folks on here do normal e-bike builds with 2-3x the power, and 1/3rd the weight. I think you would have a hard time convincing anyone on this board you've got something worthy of development money.

he's phishing.

Luke whats with your profile picture? Your scaring me man!

liveforphysics said:

Whoa! Your little 6x TO-220 size FET controller uses poly-film caps. lol I respect that you made it work though.A lot of the folks on here do normal e-bike builds with 2-3x the power, and 1/3rd the weight. I think you would have a hard time convincing anyone on this board you've got something worthy of development money.

Click to expand...

Yes it's heavy... about 330lbs (150kg, something like a person already sitting on it) because its not made from scratch, but it's a conversion from a gasoline one. Most of the heavy parts could not be removed because they are already part of the chassis. That "little" controller you see on that OLD video was holding 70A@90V (about 6kW peak). It has nothing to do with the new one that holds 100A@130V (something more than a 10kW peak tested so far). The statement about the capacitors gives me a good picture about your knowledge, I guess the recognizing the chassis of the FETs was a google search. Still... with all that weight and 2 persons on it (something like 3 if you count the lead batteries), it has no problems on any uphill and has a great acceleration. Now you can imagine what would the real, made from scratch scooter look like. BTW... I wonder who is the guy here that made the 30kW scooter with a 3 phase AC induction motor that weights 110lbs (50kg), I would really want to talk with him about few details.
I really find this forum useless, full of envy and stress... I guess I won't be coming here again.
If I ever come back here, it would be to post you a link so you can buy one.
Get some time to rest and take care.
P.S. I liked that "lol".

segaodma said:

I really find this forum useless, full of envy and stress... I guess I won't be coming here again.

Click to expand...

This place is useless... for folks begging for money or technical expertise.

This place is useful... for folks sharing their experiences and achievements.


Your choice.

segaodma said:

The statement about the capacitors gives me a good picture about your knowledge, I guess the recognizing the chassis of the FETs was a google search.

Click to expand...

LOL!!!!!!!!
I almost choked laughing, because I read this part about recognizing the fet package from a google search while I'm doing the CAD aided inductive path optimization layout on my current DIY controller build.

I gave up on TO-220 package FETs about a year ago in my controller designs. The package was designed around a 25a Ids back in the days when that was all the silicon die supported. Now we've got dice that can do 200+amps in the package, but even the beefy version of the package are still crippled by ~75A package leg limits, and crap Pd figures (particularity so when you have to isolate the drain tab). Our typical FET of choice is the IRF4110 for ~<100v controllers, it's got a good die, but it's package limited to ~75amps. I always connect directly to the drain tab for one connection, but the remaining leg connection is always a weak-link, and when you add up the switching losses and freewheeling clamping on the intrinsic diode, and the I^2*rdsOn, you use up the avaialble Pd pretty quickly for the package ~50-60amps seems to be the useful ceiling for something with any degree of reliability in a 6-fet configuration (of course the motors inductance plays a roll in this). I would love to know what TO-220 FET you've found there that performs so much better.

I went to TO-247, then TO-264, then some exotic packages, and now loving the Y3-I package.

Here is a little shot next to an old POS 18 x TO-220 fet I built for a size compare:


Here is a little shot of the current project (the cap mount stage unbolted from the rails obviously, it's still being optimized).

segaodma said:

Still... with all that weight and 2 persons on it (something like 3 if you count the lead batteries), it has no problems on any uphill and has a great acceleration. Now you can imagine what would the real, made from scratch scooter look like. BTW... I wonder who is the guy here that made the 30kW scooter with a 3 phase AC induction motor that weights 110lbs (50kg), I would really want to talk with him about few details.
I really find this forum useless, full of envy and stress... I guess I won't be coming here again.
If I ever come back here, it would be to post you a link so you can buy one.
Get some time to rest and take care.
P.S. I liked that "lol".

Click to expand...

As far as 1/3rd of the weight, 4-5x the power bicycles go, here's one of my bikes (controller limited to 100A 100v per motor):




Here is a little video of the trike I'm guessing you're talking about, which belongs to Matt:

[youtube]WKAMus3oSdw[/youtube]

Every bit of the drive system is built from scratch



We don't call our stuff "Tesla bikes and trikes" lol, and we don't go looking for money. We just build better stuff and freely share the info with folks.


Thank you for taking the time to give me a good morning chuckle though with the bit about me Googleling to discover the name of the fet package. That was great stuff.

If you're into sharing more about your work, myself and I'm sure most everyone else would love to see it, we always enjoy checking out new EV builds of all types, high or performance, simple or advanced.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

OK... I won't wait to post the link.
I have a friend that says... The details are the things that make the difference!

liveforphysics said:

I gave up on TO-220 package FETs about a year ago in my controller designs.

Click to expand...

1. Bad idea... its cheap and affordable... and as you can see does the job even at 100A, even though someone told you it can max 75A per leg.
2. I saw no 3 phase AC induction motor... only DC motors with permanent magnets!

liveforphysics said:

As far as 1/3rd of the weight, 4-5x the power bicycles go, here's one of my bikes (controller limited to 100A 100v per motor):

Click to expand...

You compare those tiny electric motors to a 44lbs (20kg) AC motor?!

liveforphysics said:

Here is a little video of the trike I'm guessing you're talking about, which belongs to Matt:

Click to expand...

Nothing spectacular for a long vehicle that has no weight on the back wheel and has so tiny tires. If it had our motor there, there would have been no tire left!

liveforphysics said:

We don't call our stuff "Tesla bikes and trikes" lol, and we don't go looking for money. We just build better stuff and freely share the info with folks.

Click to expand...

You don't because you can't, you use DC motors. We can and do. We use the motor that Tesla invented. Even if I share it would make no difference to you since the electronics to control the AC motor are 10 times more complicated than those you use for DC. And we do share videos... just like you.

segoadma,

I think you'd be well advised to do some proper research, read some of the excellent threads on here and understand what you're doing a little better than you presently seem to.

Firstly, my understanding is that Tesla Motors owns the trademark that you're using, so you'd perhaps be well advised to seek legal advice on the wisdom of selling something with their brand name (it's called "passing off" and is an offence in most countries).

Secondly, everything Luke wrote about the package limitations of the TO220 devices is correct. Do some very simple basic calculations and you will very quickly learn that you cannot get rid of the heat from the junction quickly enough to sustain high current delivery in a practical application. There are many threads on this forum with hard data from people who have discovered this the hard way.

Thirdly, there are a bunch of people on here with at least one, often two or three, degrees in electronic engineering and related subjects. Collectively, we've amassed a fair amount of data on what works and what doesn't work when it comes to AC/brushless/3 phase motors and drive systems. One thing we've collectively learned here is that light weight, high power density, high rpm systems can be built reliably using brushless systems. They are also relatively inexpensive.

To suggest that Luke, or any of us for that matter, are using DC motors just shows your own level of ignorance and also shows that you've not taken the time to read posts here before coming to us begging for money.

You've made a reasonable job of your home-made AC drive, although it clearly needs some further development before it could be used in a production scooter. You could have saved a lot of time and effort had you found this forum earlier and been able to take advantage of the great wealth of knowledge and experience there is here.

Perhaps a more conciliatory approach, recognising that many here have a great deal of expertise with electric vehicle power systems, might have been a bit better than having a first post as a request for funding a project with a stolen trademark as a name..................

Jeremy

ES member Frodus:



http://www.evalbum.com/1365

POP-QUIZ: How many AC induction motors in the top ten TTXGP?

Not bashing the AC, just pointing out that keeping up with Cedric and his DC brushies is not that simple.

Hey, another!


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=15794

TylerDurden said:

POP-QUIZ: How many AC induction motors in the top ten TTXGP?

Not bashing the AC, just pointing out that keeping up with Cedric and his DC brushies is not that simple.

Click to expand...

Not 100% sure about the international TTXGP, but in the American TTXGP:
there were 4 ACIM machines,
Team Electra
Electric Motorsport
SquareWave Racing
Volt Motors

BLDC machines:
Lightning

PMDC machines:
Zero Agni
Electric Racebikes
Werkstratt
K Squared

Series wound:
Pril Motors

So, same amount of AC Induction as there were PMDC motors. 1st place was the BLDC, second was PMDC and third was ACIM.

Whoa, another.



http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13343

Did someone say there are only DC motors here?? :lol:

Jeremy Harris said:

To suggest that Luke, or any of us for that matter, are using DC motors just shows your own level of ignorance and also shows that you've not taken the time to read posts here before coming to us begging for money.

Click to expand...

I had no intentions to show ignorance nor argue with someone, my reaction was appropriate to the way I was "welcomed". And on the top he asks for details... after what I found here... yeah sure!

Jeremy Harris said:

You've made a reasonable job of your home-made AC drive, although it clearly needs some further development before it could be used in a production scooter. You could have saved a lot of time and effort had you found this forum earlier and been able to take advantage of the great wealth of knowledge and experience there is here.

Click to expand...

It's reasonable because we have a leak of funds. I know we will make a rocket one soon. Yes I could save time, but the things that took me the most of it are nowhere in this forum... like parasitic inductions and their effects!

Jeremy Harris said:

having a first post as a request for funding a project with a stolen trademark as a name..................

Click to expand...

I bet you know who is Nikola and now many Nikolas are there in US. On the other hand, every second guy here is named Nikola. Tesla here is just a surname, the same way you have your Harris that has half of the city where you live I guess. It would be like someone would call his vehicle a Harris Scooter... go sue him?! Speaking of Tesla Motors. They have few patents about batteries and their preservation for better life and that's it. They use Siemens controllers, Lotus chassis... etc... they just assemble, nothing more.

TylerDurden said:

http://www.evalbum.com/1365

Click to expand...

http://www.evalbum.com/3033
... and I really miss the GM's killed one!

frodus said:

So, same amount of AC Induction as there were PMDC motors. 1st place was the BLDC, second was PMDC and third was ACIM.

Click to expand...

In the UK, It looks more like 1/10.

At any rate, we got lots to play with: AC, DC, R/C...

Doesn't Luke do big AC motors at his day job?


As for use of a name in trade, first in same class of product/service generally wins.

Tesla is taken in electric vehicles.
Harris is taken in electronics.

Nikola Scooter sounds cute tho...

segaodma,

You may well believe that you can market an electric vehicle with the Tesla name, just because you've used Nikola Tesla as the source, but the law in most countries will acknowledge, just as TD has said, that the first company to market a product in the same market (electric vehicles) to use that name has the right to use it excusively for that type of product. The best example I can think of is Apple, a simpler name would be hard to find, yet Apple as a company have worldwide exclusive use of that trademark and take action in the courts to protect it.

You've confirmed, once more, that you haven't taken the time to read the posts on here before collectively denigrating the quality of work and knowledge of forum members. Many here have at least as much, maybe more, knowledge and experience of designing, building, testing and using high power brushless power systems as you and your colleagues, so to assume that you have invented something unique, when many here have built systems that are at least equal to yours is crass.

Please take some time and read some of the really great information on this forum before posting ill-founded comments that reflect badly on us. You clearly have something to offer, in that you've developed a power system independently, which is no mean feat. Most here work on a collaborative principle though, where we share knowledge freely for the greater good of all.

Jeremy

segaodma said:

http://www.evalbum.com/3033
... and I really miss the GM's killed one!

Click to expand...

Lemme get this straight.....

Before you said:

segaodma said:

You compare those tiny electric motors to a 44lbs (20kg) AC motor?!

Click to expand...

and from the evalbum entry you say:

ISKRA 3KW 3-Phase AC
900Rpm 6 pole 3 phase AC induction motor, 3KW continuous, 6KW peak.

Click to expand...

6kw peak for a 44lb motor?

sounds a bit..... wimpy.... for a 44lb motor.

TylerDurden said:

Doesn't Luke do big AC motors at his day job?

Click to expand...

Yep. I spec drives and setup controls for multi-mega watt 3p induction motors, gens, and rotary UPS' as part of my job. Soooo much easier to work with than PMBLDC motors, but you pay the price in efficiency, size, weight etc.



I call induction motors boat anchors (that have a good purpose in industrial applications). No offense to Nikola Tesla (whom I've always revered with God-like esteem), but induction motors are a really shitty choice for an LEV situation where power/weight and efficiency matter. When you control an induction motor, you get to operate in slip, so with nothing to sync, the controller brain design has a lot of room to be sloppy, and the R/L constant for the motors is very Di/Dt friendly, so current control is cake, even with low carrier frequency like you can hear in his video (maybe 12khz?). If you want a challenge, try building BLDC controllers for motors with <10mOhm winding resistance, extremely low inductance, and operate in 5-digit RPM ranges with 24-28poles. Driving an induction motor is like eating ice cream in comparison.

We could replace that 44lbs induction motor with a 4lbs BLDC motor (but then he would quickly become disenchanted with the TO-220 package when he tried to drive it.)

Hey, Luke!

What is that knitting for?
Boring? or just holds cables together?

HAL9000v2.0 said:

Hey, Luke!

What is that knitting for?
Boring? or just holds cables together?

Click to expand...

Cool pic! I would make it my avatar, but it doesn't seem to look good scaled down to 120x120.

The lashings are critical when you get instantaneous current spikes in the >100,000amp current range during make-before-break switching events, or energizing 8MW transformers (that first cycle is a BITCH!) lol. The wires actually buck and jerk, and will loosen the 3/4" torqued bolts holding them to the buss', or snap the individual solid strands of 10awg making up the 0000awg cables. In the datacenter field, we don't get the liberty of switching un-loaded very often, and you can't wait for perfect phase alignment before swapping if a power source is spiking or dropping (like when a bank of 5KA SCR's lets go lol), so the control logic has to pull the trigger to keep the power up no matter the consequences, even if it wipes out a $50,000 contactor, it's still way way cheaper than a critical load outage, which starts at the $1 million dollar losses range, and quickly goes up from there. Get a bad switching event, and they cables buck against each other and anything else that conducts, sometimes it sounds like somebody hit the panel door with a sledge hammer. lol

segaodma said:

The statement about the capacitors gives me a good picture about your knowledge, I guess the recognizing the chassis of the FETs was a google search.

Click to expand...

You gotta share with the world your deeper understanding of capacitor selection for myself and the other folks who have to google-search to identify a FET package. All this time I've been designing around selecting caps with ESR minima's in the carrier freq range, and then a second paralleled set in the commutation freq range, giving inductive placement priority to the carrier freq caps, and then selecting the combo that ends up with the highest ripple current that fits the other needs. It seems Siemens and Yaskawa, NASA, and the whole rest of the world have got this entirely wrong though. This is where it's at for ripple current and low ESR caps guys, while the rest of the controller building world is busy googleing to ID fet packages, this is what the smart guys go to.


You can tell it's all about flattening out ripples just by the massive leads they throw on the packages, all the better to couple with those thick thick high current handling foils in there.