Taking Charge: Let's Develop the Products That We Want!

[RevDon]

This group is composed of people from many walks of life, backgrounds, education and experience who share a common bond: We believe that electric vehicles are the best solution to many of the problems we face in the world today. Regardless of personal politics, agendas or motivations, I think it's safe to say that we all believe EV's are the future of transportation.

To that end, it's in our own best interest as a group to decide what works, what doesn't, what can be improved upon and how, and what's needed that doesn't currently exist.

Within this group resides experts in every field required to advance the research and development of the products we will use every day, and make them safe and reliable. I'm going to name some names, and if I leave you out, please don't be upset, jump in to your favorite topic(s) and get involved. Who knows, we may even pull in some lurkers

Let's start with batteries. I know that much has already been discussed on this topic, and the others to follow. What I want to do with the EV Business page is to refine what's been said to it's essence, and have it be presented in a marketable format that is mutually beneficial to those wanting to get involved in EV's as a business. An EV Bible, if you will. I've asked Doctorbass if he would be willing to put together a manual on building A123 battery packs, BMS's and chargers. He said he would. (You're still OK with that, right Doc?) Ypedal has vast experince in other formats, (as his bank account shows) and we also have input from representatives of other commercial products, such as Sam from Yesa and Joshk who sells Valence. Take the ball and run with it

Controllers: Messrs Fechter and Safe immediately come to mind, with Bobmcree and Doc et al, welcome. Some major headway in product development, design and improvement has already been posted. If you would, please start with the current state-of-the-art controller and pursue the development of a modular design that would adapt to the different requirements of the users. Maybe even a basic kit that could be built by newbies like me You might also include plug / regen braking in this topic.

Motors: Here we're at the mercy of the manufacturers. Hubmotors are mostly all Asia based. From what I've been able to gather from the posts, they will build to spec, so let's determine who offers the best products, who's willing to work with us, and who will actually deliver the goods. Knoxie and Xyster, help us out You guys make great test pilots You two, and maybe Recumbent can also offer your input on chain drives and motors.

E-bike Frames: This one's wide open Suspended, rigid, mountain bike, cruiser, chopper, recumbent, and Beagles scooter, there's something for everyone to get in on. I also want to use this topic to continue the "Perfect E-bike Frame" discussion in relation to them all. Let's come up with something built around the drive, be it hubmotor or chain, that will set standards for a new industry: Ours. I've even seen Safe and TD actually agree on some issues regarding suspension

I know that I've been largely cyclo-centric here, but I want to include the Auto crowd as well. Most of the technology translates to both markets, and when cross-over applies, let's use it to our mutual advantage. Communication between disciplines can yield new products and ideas, so let's start talking

There you have it: my Manifesto so-to-speak. I hope it becomes a mutually instructional and inspiring discussion for all involved, and I look forward to being a part of it.

Don

[Doctorbass]

Hey! i'm still interested! dont border with that.

[RevDon]

I left out an obvious catagory: Accessories. Things like the Cycle Analyst,
Eagletree Microprocessor eLogger, displays, led's, etc.

[deardancer3]

With Gas prices predicted to go to at least $3.75 in most of the US this spring, Wonder what ebikes would be the best to advise customers to consider?

We would have to categorize things into the most asked for, or average/basic, use; 6-9 miles to work each way, recharge at work, 200 lb rider, moderate hills, moderate bike skills, $ 1k budget. ( the old Giant Suede and Lafree lite come to mind.) would like to have a turnkey bike and also a bionx like kit (not DIY bag of parts) for $1k to add to a bike.

And another setup - extended use, for those with longer commutes or heavier loads.

If the products were popular and successful, would we have the reliability, deliveries, support sytems, local service, parts and financing to make it work, or, if the demand is triple last years, are we going to embarass ourselves?

dick

[fechter]

With Gas prices predicted to go to at least $3.75 in most of the US this spring, Wonder what ebikes would be the best to advise customers to consider?

It's almost that much here now! They're saying more like over $4 a gallon by spring.

[Beagle123]

Great post Don. Now that I'm finishing my scooter, I don't think I'll be super-motivated to start another. However, I would still like to contribute to our collective efforts. I agree with you that we need to start a research and development project.

The way I see it, the most critical components are:
1) the battery
2) areo dynamics
3) motor
4) controller


I think it would be very beneficial to get a member to set-up some type of testing contraption in their garage to test batteries, controller and motors side-by-side. I don't trust the numbers of the manufacturers, and the charts are fairly useless. I wonder what the real numbers are. It seems like you could make a crude motor and controller tester using a stationary bike and an amp-meter. It wouldn't be necessary to produce exact numbers as to compare the various motors. Likewise you could swap-out controller to compare those using the same motor. And hopefully we could dicover the best combination.

A battery testing facility would be great too.

[recumbent]

The biggest issue with electric bikes (and other EV's) are:

Batteries The choices are too many, with varying qualities in each category, few standards to guide the industry, or... us, for that matter. These shady Chinese companies poping up overnight with developments changing monthly is not comforting to someone that is about to cough-up $800+.
However, I think it will iron itself out very soon. I'm still hooked on Lifepo4 battery technology, and will place my order for 32 cells from "Lifebatt" in a month or so. Especially now their prices are becoming a little more affordable.

[Don Harmon]

Check out Bob & Gary's new pricing on http://www.tppacks.com They should be up shortly!

Don Harmon

[HAL9000v2.0]

Interesting post, a month ago I have started similar but local project Of building the "perfect ebike". Collected a group of 4 peopele from our local e-bike forum and we started to build bike from scratch in series of 10 pieces. The frame is in production right now and swingarm production strats next month. Basic Idea is to build 10bikes, sell 6 to cover expences of production, but I have sell 7 frames just based on 3d sketch so we are building another ten frames.
Frame is designed to be standard so all of parts (expencive and cheap) fits easily on it. Also, all sorts of batteries must fit inside together with big controller (kelly). It is full- suspension and geometry is between standard MTB and downhill.
Second member is building new controller which will be modular and full sinus. Something like Danfoss Micro drive but for lower volts and higher amps. Third is carbon expert and his job is to make covers and other parts from carbon. And last member of our small team have to find all "standard" parts for bike that we need like fork breakes, sprockets...
Another step (next year) is to build new hub motor. Something like X5 but lighter and with better windings.

Some designs of the frame...

[mikereidis]

I got into e-biking 2 months ago and I'm hooked. I'm trying to build "the perfect setup" and finding the products available lacking. So I think there are business opportunities here, for e-bikes, and possibly small EVs in future.

My educational and early professional experience are in electronics. These days I design and write code for largeish embedded systems under Linux. I'm interested in building everything electrical/electronic/computerized for ebikes or small EVs that relates to locomotion (I.E. not lights at this time), except the motor controller, although many things would have to interface with the motor controller.

For example, cruise controls (speed, current, custom), e-brakes/regen add-ons, chargers, BMSs, battery testers/monitors, computers for various purposes. Would be great to have a modular system of add-ons that all integrate around the batteries/controllers/motors that I would not be building. Might be nice to have batteries and charger/BMS/control-unit all integrated into one physical package however.

First step is an integrated battery pack with charger and BMS. I have a very simple manual charger built into my ebike battery pack now, and am currently working on a BMS for that.

[RevDon]

Hey HAL,

That looks SERIOUS Let us know what the prices are, and when they'll be available.

Nice work
Don

[Microbatman]

HAL9000v2.0

That frame is exactly what I want!!!
I have gone through the entire process of switching out from wimpy aluminum frame to a heafty steel chrome moly frame (a hardtail Azonic Steelhead) to lower the chances of my X5 from spinning in the dropouts.

Now that I see what you designed here it would be nice to know that I have a choice to take it to the next level and would be willing to change frames again.

My point is that I think that off road type high performance user would be willing to change frames.

Nice work.

What would be a ball park cost of that frame?

What about the cost with a swingarm capable of holding onto an X5 motor?
What type of material would you reccommend it be built with? 4130 Chrome moly?

[HAL9000v2.0]

HAL9000v2.0

That frame is exactly what I want!!!
I have gone through the entire process of switching out from wimpy aluminum frame to a heafty steel chrome moly frame (a hardtail Azonic Steelhead) to lower the chances of my X5 from spinning in the dropouts.

Now that I see what you designed here it would be nice to know that I have a choice to take it to the next level and would be willing to change frames again.

My point is that I think that off road type high performance user would be willing to change frames.

Nice work.

What would be a ball park cost of that frame?

What about the cost with a swingarm capable of holding onto an X5 motor?
What type of material would you reccommend it be built with? 4130 Chrome moly?

All the frames are sold, although they will be finished in February. The price is around 550$ and includes frame ,swing arm custom built for x5,x4 and golden motor with big or normal disc, Left and right canopy made from fiberglass and cheap shock. For two bikes canopys are made from carbon and one from Kevlar. Steel is 4140 only on two frames because it is hard to bend it, all other are from 4120. I will make a topic with all the details but my arm is broken (1 week left in cast...) and have trouble typing... Here is the webpage I made and it will be functional soon. The whole project will be open source so all the details will bet there. http://www.greyb.org or http://www.greyborg.com



Short translation:
- standard fork
-2 batt spaces 300x150x100mm
-canopy can be narowed to 70 mm so the whole bike is only 70mm wide
-fame is build with support for kelly controller. Cristalyte holder plate available.
-standard seat tube
-Shimano standard M35x24TPI x73mm
- Shock 160mm
-Left side of the swing arm can be removed so tyre can be changed without removing the wheel.
-Dropouts have integreted 10mm steel "torque arms", M10x1 deluierbxyzxzx mount and 47mm standard for disc caliper
-Sinter-bronze swingarm joint

[Rod]

Anybody see the skateboard car from GM? I think that if they had put it into production with batterys instead of fuel cells GM would not be looking for the bailouts they now need. With the intrechangeable body styles and drive by wire system they would only need one chasis to satisy most comuter and light industry needs. Google skateboard car for videos.

[PhoenixOSU]

I've recently found myself in a position to try some ideas for future products, and I have an idea for a modular controller like what I am designing for myself. Something where key parts can be interchanged for different configurations, designed for systems with motors ranging from just a few hundred watts to a several thousand watts. Would there be any interest in such a product?

[gblast123]

Would it be possible to have a workshop/convention where people who are just starting (like me) can go to lecture, demonstrations, etc.

I find that all the information is out there but it is in bits and pieces.

I would suggest that some of the vendors , it battery, controller, motor hub mfg. etc. can also sell their wares, etc.

The format would be much like the experimental airplane community.. they have two big events every year.. Osh Kosh and Sun N Fun.

Everyone can show off their bike builds, etc.

I have been looking for something like that, but have not been able to find such an event.

David

[Kingfish]

What you ask for is a classic User Group scenario

The formula goes like this:

• Find one or more willing local/regional sponsors to back promotion which will not be difficult in an expanding market.
• Gather like-minds that are close enough for local gather.
• Agree to form a Not-For-Profit Organization.
• Draft By-Laws.
• Recruit members.
• Register NFP with legal authorities; in the United States this will be with the Secretary of State of your local State.
• Hold monthly meetings.
• At these meetings organize speakers from both professional and amateur walks of experience.
• Helpful, though not required, create a virtual presence online for paperless dissemination of information.
• Organize gathering, events, and competitions.
• Affiliate bonding with other local and regional groups.
• Form a National/International presence.
• Now you can begin to change the laws.

Need help? KF

[gblast123]

Well, it seems a daunting task... but so is getting a good BMS...

First, is there any such things that have been organized in the past?

What can i do to make this thing happen? I don't have much experience but it seems that there are a lot of people in the same boat.... I think.

Do the people at ES want to sponsor or help organize this for the Spring? I figure that for the northern crowd, Late Feb, March would be a great time to have this.

Any suggestions people?

[Kingfish]

Mmm, I don’t consider the task daunting at all, but then I have organized and managed many startups and events on a local, regional, and national stage. Regardless of the subject, promotion pretty much follows a given predictable pattern.

The questions I have for you begin with:

• Are you talking about a national event mixing amateur & professional EV peoples ala conference?
• How long is the imagined event?
• What are the topics of discussion?

My Point:

• Scope out your wish list: What is it you wish to accomplish; what are the goals?
• Identify your target audience.
• Identify where your event will be, how much it will cost, and create a budget for promotion, production, and follow-up.
• Locate/source your sponsors and nail them down for commitment.

Caveats:
It greatly helps if you have a fan-base; a bunch of groupies willing to forfeit personal time to make a go of it for the greater good. NFP events are the easiest in my mind because you spend all you receive and generally everyone gets a healthy dose of Dr. Feel-Good at the end.

So let’s take this in steps…

Proto Local User Group
Send out notification to peoples within 50-100 miles that you are going to meet at XYZ place on such date and time with the agenda of 1-2-3 items. XYZ place is a sponsor willing to share their space for one-time promotion 2-3 hours in length. Provide low-budget nibbles, juice, coffee, water so nervous can settle down. Keep your talking points simple and direct. Canned well-rehearsed slideshows, interactive pictograms, and in situ presentations of mods are generally crowd-pleasing and go over well – though should be related to a primary overarching topic of the meeting. Each presentation should be short and direct: 25-35 minutes. Leave 10-15 minutes for Q&A from a panel of experts. Hand out literature and a survey that can be filled out on the spot or mailed in: Feedback is essential. Bottom line is you want these folks to come back and eventually contribute to your fledgling organization. In one evening you can bang out two or three compelling presentations.

Saturday Grand Meet
Send out notification to peoples within 200 miles. Now you can have two groups giving presentations morning and afternoon, canvasing six topics, while at the same time exposing the curious public to local users EVs – like a motorcycle gallery. Again we start with sponsorship, maybe have a registration or entry fee for upgraded food, or an onsite food vendor. If you hold it at a park under a big tent it’ll need a local permit and insurance, or if you’re lucky the event is in a sponsor’s parking lot. This gets my mind set on balloons, banners, promotional spots on public radio – heck if you were really serious and played up the Green card you could get the Mayor and City Council involved.

Conclusion:
Strike while the anvil is hot and EV is in the news. Evangelize your local denizens with compelling presentations to kick-start the community into thinking and accepting EVs as (for example) good for the environment, smart healthy modes of transport, common-place, and easy to maintain.

Personally, I think this is the YEAR to get these things going and NOW is the time to start planning for Spring/Summer events. Believe me: Time flies! A month from now you’ll be saying “I wish I would have started planning earlier”. My answer is: Why put off till tomorrow what you can accomplish today?

The reality is – if you’ve never done this before, January is too late to plan for Spring events. Figure out what you want to accomplish, where you want to do it, and with whom you wish to partner with.

Excited for you & everyone else, KF

[spkpn]

A cool thing would be to somewhen organise a big DIY EV comunity meeting/convention/conference, where people can show their builds and those of us that have something to tell can give talks/workshops etc... this would also give that part of the industry that wants to work with us diyers the oportunity to show their stuff and intentions... Such an event would (if properly set up) also get quite some media coverage I think, which would probably help us to cut some better deals with manufacturers of batteries aand other stuff.
However, I know from organizing conferences and meetings in academia how much of an effort and how much money it takes to implement such a thing...Still, maybe one day we will manage.

edit: I should read all posts in a thread before posting myself..

[e-bike-is-fun]

At what point of humans on Earth not controlled by monies (trade by token) of the time.?
You control money, you control all.
Ideas good & not so. So what.
Garden of 'Eden' was passed on, to us.
Take charge within your rheum, stand firm, be good, and pronounce such.
Good luck.

[ElliottE]

Hello everyone,

Well, the title of this thread says exactly what got me going in the first place...

I had one of those Iacocca "E-bikes" back in the mid-90's when I lived in a flat area, and I loved it, used it every day. Then I moved to mountain country, and that puppy ended up rusting in the garage because it couldn't climb very well. About a year ago I decided that I really wanted a new e-bike, then determined that there wasn't anything on the market that I really wanted to buy.

So here I am, looking to learn what I can from the community here, in hopes that I can put together a design that can not only be something I'd want to buy, but something others will want to buy as well.

This should be a fun ride, in more ways than one...

[Zenid]

I left out an obvious catagory: Accessories. Things like the Cycle Analyst,
Eagletree Microprocessor eLogger, displays, led's, etc.

One thing I would like to see - and which I actually approached the CellLog manufacturers about - is a 24s CellLog or similar device. As it is, I'm having to make do with improvised affairs like this:
http://zenid10.files.wordpress.com/2011 ... 0x1200.jpg

Something that could be dash-mounted would be nice. To the best if my knowledge, things like this just don't exist at the moment. If I've missed someone who does make displays of that sort then I'd love to hear about it.

[arkmundi]

This group is composed of people from many walks of life, backgrounds, education and experience who share a common bond: We believe that electric vehicles are the best solution to many of the problems we face in the world today. Regardless of personal politics, agendas or motivations, I think it's safe to say that we all believe EV's are the future of transportation.

Agreed that the need is vast and there's all the expertise here on this forum.

To that end, it's in our own best interest as a group to decide what works, what doesn't, what can be improved upon and how, and what's needed that doesn't currently exist.

There will be a diversity of opinion. Getting one product to market should be goal, so a "one size fits all" approach of best components & methodolgy, with latter product diversification and stratification.

Within this group resides experts in every field required to advance the research and development of the products we will use every day, and make them safe and reliable. I'm going to name some names, and if I leave you out, please don't be upset, jump in to your favorite topic(s) and get involved. Who knows, we may even pull in some lurkers

I'm no lurker but seriously interested. Most great products start in someone's garage or basement. Think Apple Computer, which this week became the most valuable company in history, exceeding Exxon/Mobil, Microsoft, IBM and so many others. One guy, in a basement with his friends!

Let's start with batteries. I know that much has already been discussed on this topic, and the others to follow. What I want to do with the EV Business page is to refine what's been said to it's essence, and have it be presented in a marketable format that is mutually beneficial to those wanting to get involved in EV's as a business. An EV Bible, if you will. I've asked Doctorbass if he would be willing to put together a manual on building A123 battery packs, BMS's and chargers. He said he would. (You're still OK with that, right Doc?) Ypedal has vast experince in other formats, (as his bank account shows) and we also have input from representatives of other commercial products, such as Sam from Yesa and Joshk who sells Valence. Take the ball and run with it.

I'm close to completing my manual using the A123 AMP20 prismatic pouch cells and Agniusm's excellent build kit. Those are sine-quo-non now.

Controllers: Messrs Fechter and Safe immediately come to mind, with Bobmcree and Doc et al, welcome. Some major headway in product development, design and improvement has already been posted. If you would, please start with the current state-of-the-art controller and pursue the development of a modular design that would adapt to the different requirements of the users. Maybe even a basic kit that could be built by newbies like me. You might also include plug / regen braking in this topic.

My company design recommendation is to think of this as a far reaching cottage industry. Components being manufactured in many differenct places and assembleages in those some places. A broad network of folks working & profiting together. Product diversification will happen naturally, in non-hierachical manner. We have to get away from the practice of bloated CEO compensation and top-down styles. Think employee-owned share ownership plans and what-not.

Motors: Here we're at the mercy of the manufacturers. Hubmotors are mostly all Asia based. From what I've been able to gather from the posts, they will build to spec, so let's determine who offers the best products, who's willing to work with us, and who will actually deliver the goods. Knoxie and Xyster, help us out, You guys make great test pilots. You two, and maybe Recumbent can also offer your input on chain drives and motors.

Heinzmann, from Germany.

E-bike Frames: This one's wide open. Suspended, rigid, mountain bike, cruiser, chopper, recumbent, and Beagles scooter, there's something for everyone to get in on. I also want to use this topic to continue the "Perfect E-bike Frame" discussion in relation to them all. Let's come up with something built around the drive, be it hubmotor or chain, that will set standards for a new industry: Ours. I've even seen Safe and TD actually agree on some issues regarding suspension.

Really good design work, then sub it out to one the domestic aerospace engineering companies because they already have the metalurgy, composite, molding and manufacturing know-how perfected.

I know that I've been largely cyclo-centric here, but I want to include the Auto crowd as well. Most of the technology translates to both markets, and when cross-over applies, let's use it to our mutual advantage. Communication between disciplines can yield new products and ideas, so let's start talking.

Perhaps, perhaps not. The automobile manufacturers are already well positioned to capture the market. I believe the market here is for what are classified as "light electric vehicles" (LEV's).

There you have it: my Manifesto so-to-speak. I hope it becomes a mutually instructional and inspiring discussion for all involved, and I look forward to being a part of it. Don

Count me in, please! FYI, my assiduous R&D work on a newbie e-cycle and battery build is for the sake of New Economy new employment in my own locale. I intend on following through with a solar pedicab design and launch, because its an untapped market where I am. We're all set with local manufacturing capacity and ready to move.

[halcyon_m]

Hi all,

I wanted to bump this thread, since it's been a few years. I used to have some EV projects that centered around making items that weren't easily or cheaply sourced. I imagine many of the people here have similar issues.

I currently work for a electric vehicle manufacturer, but I, and some of my friends, would be interested in serving EV market needs via a new and separate venture, if these needs were great enough.

For example: motor and controller kits, battery modularizing and management (safety) systems, conversion kits, etc.

If anyone knows of a large enough need, that might support a few peoples development time, then please make yourself be heard.

Thanks.