Tesla Model 3

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Cephalotus   1 kW

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Cephalotus » Apr 19 2018 6:39am

Ohbse wrote:
Apr 18 2018 4:45pm
I have no doubt Tesla is a stressful place to work, given what they're trying to achieve that's pretty obvious....

They will still get there. The current shutdown is one of many iterative improvements to the production process.
I think that it was great what Tesla has achieved. beleiving in traditional carmakers we would still believe that 100km range is more than enough.

A Company like Tesla could not have grwon in Japan or Germany, but imho only in some regions of the US,w here investors are willing to bet billions on dreams.


BUT... on the other Hand... Musk is not the messiah. He can not walk on water as some believe.

Tesla might be a success in the Long end, but until now they only burn money. Making money in the car industry is the more difficult part.

The "technological" advantage is on one Hand the idea to just try something new, but mainly it is about taking the risc. The risc to use a rather unsafe battery, the risc to offer rather unsafe Technologies and Name them "autopilot", the risc to bring cars to the market before testing them.
A traditional carmaker can and will not do this, because the risc to lose the brand imgae is not worth the gain to be "the first". Tesla has nothing to lose, they had been on the edge of bankruptcy before.

Tesla promissed to earn Money with the model 3. Production delay is not unexpected, his Claims have always been way to optimistic. The big question for me is, if Tesla 3 can earn money, especially in a market that will be much more competitive in 1-2 years when the big Players will offer similar electric cars. Taking the time to optimze production and doing tests before selling them to the market and with the experince to produce cars in a mass scale at competive(!) prices.

So I think 2018-2019 will be interesting times for Tesla and its future as a company.

I would have not bet any money that they came as far as they already did and for the international car industry and the enivornment I'm quite happy that I was wrong.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Punx0r » Apr 19 2018 9:26am

I see the biggest challenge to Tesla being the existing large ICE car manufacturers. Now the EV drivetrain is become mature and components & systems being offered by OEMs, it's becoming easier for them to nail together an effective EV and leverage their considerable existing manufacturing experience and facilities, where they probably have Tesla, as a relative newcomer, beat. And it seems they are slowly wising up to a >200mile BEV being the future.

I hope Tesla doesn't end up paying the price for being the innovator when the technological risk and uncertainty was high, only to see the ICE manufacturers swoop in late and ultimately win out on the back of their hard work.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 19 2018 10:16am

Punx0r wrote:
Apr 19 2018 9:26am
I see the biggest challenge to Tesla being the existing large ICE car manufacturers. Now the EV drivetrain is become mature and components & systems being offered by OEMs, it's becoming easier for them to nail together an effective EV and leverage their considerable existing manufacturing experience and facilities, where they probably have Tesla, as a relative newcomer, beat. And it seems they are slowly wising up to a >200mile BEV being the future.

I hope Tesla doesn't end up paying the price for being the innovator when the technological risk and uncertainty was high, only to see the ICE manufacturers swoop in late and ultimately win out on the back of their hard work.
I don't think that's going to happen. It's a chance for sure. But when most people say the word Tesla they think about a highly desirable fancy Electric car so Tesla got the branding nailed down for sure. They also have a huge edge in the cost of battery manufacturing where as the others have to outsource adding a huge cost.
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Dauntless » Apr 19 2018 2:52pm

Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 10:16am
. . . .when most people say the word Tesla they think about a highly desirable fancy Electric car so Tesla got the branding nailed down for sure.
Tesla should listen to you on that. But both the Model S and the Model 3 are efforts away from that into the relatively cheap, eventually. The branding they have goes out the window. If they'd stick to trying to be hip and trendy and just sell to people who'll put up with much just to be uppity, (You know the problems Porsche owners have, right? Not to mention expensive Italian cars.) But the desire to be the new Volkswagen Beetle is strong there.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by themelon » Apr 19 2018 3:48pm

Dauntless wrote:
Apr 19 2018 2:52pm
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 10:16am
. . . .when most people say the word Tesla they think about a highly desirable fancy Electric car so Tesla got the branding nailed down for sure.
Tesla should listen to you on that. But both the Model S and the Model 3 are efforts away from that into the relatively cheap, eventually. The branding they have goes out the window. If they'd stick to trying to be hip and trendy and just sell to people who'll put up with much just to be uppity, (You know the problems Porsche owners have, right? Not to mention expensive Italian cars.) But the desire to be the new Volkswagen Beetle is strong there.
And they are doing a good job keeping up the "brand" and at the same time at least pointing the gun at their foot by only selling the Model 3 long range version with all the bells and whistles. Right now, and for at least another 9-12 months, you can only order their $35000 mass market electric car as a $50000 loaded version. And that $35000 car has very little chance to ever be the $27500 post rebate machine that they have been advertising since the beginning. I am willing to bet some cash that Tesla will sell their 200,000th electric vehicle on either January 1 or April 1, 2019. That will give them a full quarter for each of $7500, $3750 and $1875 for US Federal tax credits to buyers.

I have a friend who has had his deposit on a base model 3 since day 1. Just today he relented and ordered the loaded version as they have been encouraging base pre-orders to do for almost a year. He will have it in 3 weeks. Tesla does not have any real crippling production issues if they can do that. Only artificial ones to keep up the headlines and hype.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Cephalotus » Apr 19 2018 4:24pm

Punx0r wrote:
Apr 19 2018 9:26am
I see the biggest challenge to Tesla being the existing large ICE car manufacturers. Now the EV drivetrain is become mature and components & systems being offered by OEMs, it's becoming easier for them to nail together an effective EV and leverage their considerable existing manufacturing experience and facilities, where they probably have Tesla, as a relative newcomer, beat. And it seems they are slowly wising up to a >200mile BEV being the future.
Today Volkswagen said in a local event that their first electric I.D. will be ready for sale in 2020 and it will have a range of 600km and it will be available at a similar price as a diesel car.

edit:

Some online coverage (in German): http://www.dnn.de/Dresden/Stadtpolitik/ ... .-vom-Band

This is where they start to build it, the so called "transparent factory" in the center of Dresden, where they built the Phaeton and actually the e-Golf:

Image

Image

Volume production will start in Zwickau beginning in 2019 and they plan to build up to 1500 electric cars per day there. After retooling the factory they will only build electric cars there and it is a large factory.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 19 2018 11:40pm

themelon wrote:
Apr 19 2018 3:48pm
Dauntless wrote:
Apr 19 2018 2:52pm
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 10:16am
. . . .when most people say the word Tesla they think about a highly desirable fancy Electric car so Tesla got the branding nailed down for sure.
Tesla should listen to you on that. But both the Model S and the Model 3 are efforts away from that into the relatively cheap, eventually. The branding they have goes out the window. If they'd stick to trying to be hip and trendy and just sell to people who'll put up with much just to be uppity, (You know the problems Porsche owners have, right? Not to mention expensive Italian cars.) But the desire to be the new Volkswagen Beetle is strong there.
And they are doing a good job keeping up the "brand" and at the same time at least pointing the gun at their foot by only selling the Model 3 long range version with all the bells and whistles. Right now, and for at least another 9-12 months, you can only order their $35000 mass market electric car as a $50000 loaded version. And that $35000 car has very little chance to ever be the $27500 post rebate machine that they have been advertising since the beginning. I am willing to bet some cash that Tesla will sell their 200,000th electric vehicle on either January 1 or April 1, 2019. That will give them a full quarter for each of $7500, $3750 and $1875 for US Federal tax credits to buyers.

I have a friend who has had his deposit on a base model 3 since day 1. Just today he relented and ordered the loaded version as they have been encouraging base pre-orders to do for almost a year. He will have it in 3 weeks. Tesla does not have any real crippling production issues if they can do that. Only artificial ones to keep up the headlines and hype.
I don't blame them for doing this. What they are doing is raising capital so all the investors and what not will be happy. They will seel the base model 3 soon enough. I camped out with my wife over night in the Vancouver lineup we were 11th in the store to put down 2 deposits and up until 2 months ago I didn't know how I would pay for them... ;) I have one going to a good friend who does an electric only drag race high. The other we will use. And the CDN dollar sucks so all the options seem pretty dumb for the additional money it will easily be a $100K car up here fully loaded. I want AWD and the long range battery and maybe performance but it will depend on price. I refuse to pay stupid money for it when I can build my own race car. I will be getting the Model 3 just not sure what options.
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
Support me on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/user/posts?u=6842045
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Punx0r » Apr 20 2018 3:24am

Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 10:16am
They also have a huge edge in the cost of battery manufacturing where as the others have to outsource adding a huge cost.
True, the gigafactory is their ace card at the moment. I think they will need to keep innovating or die - keep pushing the tech. Performance they have pretty much nailed, but next-gen battery would be a good one. AFAIK they are investing in people/research/startups on this so good luck to them and I hope it keeps them one step ahead of the large automotive incumbents.

They're currently in a good place with demand for their cars far outstripping supply, while the big ICE manufacturers have flat or declining sales and airfields full of finished cars looking for owners.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by DasDouble » Apr 20 2018 6:10am

Cephalotus wrote:
Apr 19 2018 4:24pm
Punx0r wrote:
Apr 19 2018 9:26am
I see the biggest challenge to Tesla being the existing large ICE car manufacturers. Now the EV drivetrain is become mature and components & systems being offered by OEMs, it's becoming easier for them to nail together an effective EV and leverage their considerable existing manufacturing experience and facilities, where they probably have Tesla, as a relative newcomer, beat. And it seems they are slowly wising up to a >200mile BEV being the future.
Today Volkswagen said in a local event that their first electric I.D. will be ready for sale in 2020 and it will have a range of 600km and it will be available at a similar price as a diesel car.

edit:

Some online coverage (in German): http://www.dnn.de/Dresden/Stadtpolitik/ ... .-vom-Band

This is where they start to build it, the so called "transparent factory" in the center of Dresden, where they built the Phaeton and actually the e-Golf:

Image

Image

Volume production will start in Zwickau beginning in 2019 and they plan to build up to 1500 electric cars per day there. After retooling the factory they will only build electric cars there and it is a large factory.
I laugh already now about my own folks from Germany. Thats such a pitty, but I think we Germans are way too far away from Tesla to catch up. They have 0 experience with electric cars, even tho they won´t be that hard to produce. Mercedes for example already buys engines from Tesla (yeah, they have invested into Tesla some years ago but anyway) thats just stupid. We (Germans) will have a harsh time to keep up with Tesla. :| :lol:
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by DasDouble » Apr 20 2018 6:16am

Edit: You know, I have tried to send my application for a dual study for mechatronics to a couple of car makers in Germany in hope they have some places where they produce any sort of electric cars, batterys etc. But what do I see? Right, nothing. Instead I could start with Mercedes, but there is like pretty much zero chance of getting anyhow into electric mobility. That´s just so much bs right there. Im seriously mad about that. If you know any company who is more into evs, please let me know, I would be happy to give it a try. :roll:
"..the crazy kid exploring hipower ebike world ^^"
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Cephalotus   1 kW

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Cephalotus » Apr 20 2018 10:08am

DasDouble wrote:
Apr 20 2018 6:10am

I laugh already now about my own folks from Germany. Thats such a pitty, but I think we Germans are way too far away from Tesla to catch up. They have 0 experience with electric cars, even tho they won´t be that hard to produce. Mercedes for example already buys engines from Tesla (yeah, they have invested into Tesla some years ago but anyway) thats just stupid. We (Germans) will have a harsh time to keep up with Tesla. :| :lol:
Daimler has many Tesla batteries in its battery facility in Kamenz and they decided to go a different way at least for now. I already did see the prototype batteries for their next gen vehicle.
Same with Toyota. They experimented with the Tesla batteries and decided to sell their stock.

German car companies and Ford are now building the Ionity ultra charging stations with 150kW and 350kW of charging power.

https://electrek.co/guides/ionity/

Panasonic NCR cells are the wrong technology for that ultra fast charging speed up to 5C. Even with active cooling Tesla only charges up to around 1,5C till 50% SOC (numbers may not be perfectly correct) and even this 1,5C charging is quite amazing for Panasonic NCR technology to me. I didn't expect the cells to survive that.

Afaik Tesla uses an asynchronous motor in ist S and X class (don't know about the model 3). That's nice if you want to massively increase short power peaks at the cost of overheating and it is rather cheap, but it is not very effective.
Doesn't matter for a 100.000 USD car that's sold at a loss but maybe not the technology an established player might use in a mass market vehicle.

So what's Teslas technology advantage? The "autopilot"? Really?

I also do not see the advantage of the Gigafactory. VW claims that they already buy their cells below 100US/kWh.

That's why there is no "gigafactory" in Germany. Today it is impossible to earn money with such a facility as a new player. Competition against the established players Samsung, LG and Panasonic can not be won at the moment, at least not without taking huge investment riscs and why take them now? Maybe in the future.

It's like the PV industry in 2010. There was little chance to win against the Chinese "gigafactories" in that time period, not even thinking about profit margins expected in the car industry.
Last edited by Cephalotus on Apr 20 2018 11:28am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Apr 20 2018 10:20am

Punx0r wrote:
Apr 20 2018 3:24am
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 10:16am
They also have a huge edge in the cost of battery manufacturing where as the others have to outsource adding a huge cost.
True, the gigafactory is their ace card at the moment. I think they will need to keep innovating or die - keep pushing the tech. Performance they have pretty much nailed, but next-gen battery would be a good one. AFAIK they are investing in people/research/startups on this so good luck to them and I hope it keeps them one step ahead of the large automotive incumbents.
Nissan also own and manage their cell and battery pack manufacturing plants..3 infact..Japan, UK, and USA.
All Teslas cell technology and manufacturing is still dependent on Panasonic equipment and management in the Giga factory. Tesla have the pack design and assembly systems.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 20 2018 10:42am

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:20am
Punx0r wrote:
Apr 20 2018 3:24am
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 10:16am
They also have a huge edge in the cost of battery manufacturing where as the others have to outsource adding a huge cost.
True, the gigafactory is their ace card at the moment. I think they will need to keep innovating or die - keep pushing the tech. Performance they have pretty much nailed, but next-gen battery would be a good one. AFAIK they are investing in people/research/startups on this so good luck to them and I hope it keeps them one step ahead of the large automotive incumbents.
Nissan also own and manage their cell and battery pack manufacturing plants..3 infact..Japan, UK, and USA.
All Teslas cell technology and manufacturing is still dependent on Panasonic equipment and management in the Giga factory. Tesla have the pack design and assembly systems.
Prismatic cells are much more costly to manufacture...
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
Support me on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/user/posts?u=6842045
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Apr 20 2018 11:01am

Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:42am
Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:20am
Nissan also own and manage their cell and battery pack manufacturing plants..3 infact..Japan, UK, and USA.
All Teslas cell technology and manufacturing is still dependent on Panasonic equipment and management in the Giga factory. Tesla have the pack design and assembly systems.
Prismatic cells are much more costly to manufacture...
Nissan use pouch cells.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Alan B » Apr 20 2018 11:11am

Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:42am
Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:20am
Punx0r wrote:
Apr 20 2018 3:24am
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 10:16am
They also have a huge edge in the cost of battery manufacturing where as the others have to outsource adding a huge cost.
True, the gigafactory is their ace card at the moment. I think they will need to keep innovating or die - keep pushing the tech. Performance they have pretty much nailed, but next-gen battery would be a good one. AFAIK they are investing in people/research/startups on this so good luck to them and I hope it keeps them one step ahead of the large automotive incumbents.
Nissan also own and manage their cell and battery pack manufacturing plants..3 infact..Japan, UK, and USA.
All Teslas cell technology and manufacturing is still dependent on Panasonic equipment and management in the Giga factory. Tesla have the pack design and assembly systems.
Prismatic cells are much more costly to manufacture...
small cylindrical cells are much more expensive to combine and manage in a large battery pack

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by parabellum » Apr 20 2018 11:46am

Alan B wrote:
Apr 20 2018 11:11am
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:42am
Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:20am
Punx0r wrote:
Apr 20 2018 3:24am


True, the gigafactory is their ace card at the moment. I think they will need to keep innovating or die - keep pushing the tech. Performance they have pretty much nailed, but next-gen battery would be a good one. AFAIK they are investing in people/research/startups on this so good luck to them and I hope it keeps them one step ahead of the large automotive incumbents.
Nissan also own and manage their cell and battery pack manufacturing plants..3 infact..Japan, UK, and USA.
All Teslas cell technology and manufacturing is still dependent on Panasonic equipment and management in the Giga factory. Tesla have the pack design and assembly systems.
Prismatic cells are much more costly to manufacture...
small cylindrical cells are much more expensive to combine and manage in a large battery pack
Then again, return and warranty cost question.
How many Teslas may be on the road, right now, with randomly failed and fused cells without noticed impact on pack capacity and any need to be exchanged by warranty?

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 20 2018 7:15pm

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 11:01am
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:42am
Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:20am
Nissan also own and manage their cell and battery pack manufacturing plants..3 infact..Japan, UK, and USA.
All Teslas cell technology and manufacturing is still dependent on Panasonic equipment and management in the Giga factory. Tesla have the pack design and assembly systems.
Prismatic cells are much more costly to manufacture...
Nissan use pouch cells.
Yes which are more costly to manufacture!
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
Support me on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/user/posts?u=6842045
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 20 2018 7:18pm

Alan B wrote:
Apr 20 2018 11:11am
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:42am
Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 10:20am
Punx0r wrote:
Apr 20 2018 3:24am


True, the gigafactory is their ace card at the moment. I think they will need to keep innovating or die - keep pushing the tech. Performance they have pretty much nailed, but next-gen battery would be a good one. AFAIK they are investing in people/research/startups on this so good luck to them and I hope it keeps them one step ahead of the large automotive incumbents.
Nissan also own and manage their cell and battery pack manufacturing plants..3 infact..Japan, UK, and USA.
All Teslas cell technology and manufacturing is still dependent on Panasonic equipment and management in the Giga factory. Tesla have the pack design and assembly systems.
Prismatic cells are much more costly to manufacture...
small cylindrical cells are much more expensive to combine and manage in a large battery pack
I don't think the data backs up that statement. Tesla now has the cheapest to manufacture battery in the EV world. When you can make enough round cells at a low enough price then have a robot assemble them into modules its easy to bring the cost down.
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
Support me on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/user/posts?u=6842045
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Apr 20 2018 11:22pm

Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 20 2018 7:18pm
I don't think the data backs up that statement. Tesla now has the cheapest to manufacture battery in the EV world.
What data do you have to substantiate that statement.?
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Apr 21 2018 12:48am

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 11:22pm
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 20 2018 7:18pm
I don't think the data backs up that statement. Tesla now has the cheapest to manufacture battery in the EV world.
What data do you have to substantiate that statement.?
Cost of the Powerwall. It has the lowest $/kwhr of any lithium based home power storage system. (And uses the same technology/assembly methods as their EV batteries.)
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Alan B » Apr 21 2018 7:30am

You cannot tell from the price of a loss leader product.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by themelon » Apr 21 2018 8:32am

Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 11:40pm
themelon wrote:
Apr 19 2018 3:48pm
Dauntless wrote:
Apr 19 2018 2:52pm
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 19 2018 10:16am
. . . .when most people say the word Tesla they think about a highly desirable fancy Electric car so Tesla got the branding nailed down for sure.
Tesla should listen to you on that. But both the Model S and the Model 3 are efforts away from that into the relatively cheap, eventually. The branding they have goes out the window. If they'd stick to trying to be hip and trendy and just sell to people who'll put up with much just to be uppity, (You know the problems Porsche owners have, right? Not to mention expensive Italian cars.) But the desire to be the new Volkswagen Beetle is strong there.
And they are doing a good job keeping up the "brand" and at the same time at least pointing the gun at their foot by only selling the Model 3 long range version with all the bells and whistles. Right now, and for at least another 9-12 months, you can only order their $35000 mass market electric car as a $50000 loaded version. And that $35000 car has very little chance to ever be the $27500 post rebate machine that they have been advertising since the beginning. I am willing to bet some cash that Tesla will sell their 200,000th electric vehicle on either January 1 or April 1, 2019. That will give them a full quarter for each of $7500, $3750 and $1875 for US Federal tax credits to buyers.

I have a friend who has had his deposit on a base model 3 since day 1. Just today he relented and ordered the loaded version as they have been encouraging base pre-orders to do for almost a year. He will have it in 3 weeks. Tesla does not have any real crippling production issues if they can do that. Only artificial ones to keep up the headlines and hype.
I don't blame them for doing this. What they are doing is raising capital so all the investors and what not will be happy. They will seel the base model 3 soon enough. I camped out with my wife over night in the Vancouver lineup we were 11th in the store to put down 2 deposits and up until 2 months ago I didn't know how I would pay for them... ;) I have one going to a good friend who does an electric only drag race high. The other we will use. And the CDN dollar sucks so all the options seem pretty dumb for the additional money it will easily be a $100K car up here fully loaded. I want AWD and the long range battery and maybe performance but it will depend on price. I refuse to pay stupid money for it when I can build my own race car. I will be getting the Model 3 just not sure what options.
The only thing wrong, if any of my actual speculation is true, is that they could be using it to manipulate stock prices and defrauding investors. They can create all the hype they want, just don't create artificial shortages that could affect stock prices, up or down.

I personally have owned a Chevy Bolt for nearly a year as I buy based on the product providing what I want when I need it, not it having the "desired" logo. I have never had an interest in Tesla. Sure, they have done allot in pushing electric autos mainstream and for that I applaud them but I simply don't like the company or their cars. I see nothing wrong with their quality, just business practices. Not that GM is any better historically, I think they should have died miserably in 2009 instead of being bailed out by the government. They just happen to make the car that I wanted when I wanted it.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by themelon » Apr 21 2018 8:35am

billvon wrote:
Apr 21 2018 12:48am
Hillhater wrote:
Apr 20 2018 11:22pm
Arlo1 wrote:
Apr 20 2018 7:18pm
I don't think the data backs up that statement. Tesla now has the cheapest to manufacture battery in the EV world.
What data do you have to substantiate that statement.?
Cost of the Powerwall. It has the lowest $/kwhr of any lithium based home power storage system. (And uses the same technology/assembly methods as their EV batteries.)
As Alan indicated, the actual sale price is not representative of the cost of manufacture. Tesla is building a brand and that costs money. It is very likely that they are selling the PowerWalls at a significant loss to build up the brand.

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Alan B » Apr 21 2018 8:39am

Managing thousands of small cylindrical cells is a short term solution. None of the other carmakers seem to be interested in that. For the long haul much larger cells will take over and obsolete all the small cell systems. You have to decide what you want to own. If the technology is not stable, you have the option of leasing, or buying used after the depreciation. Don't get caught in the hype.

Powerwall batteries don't have the same requirements as vehicles.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 21 2018 9:54am

Alan B wrote:
Apr 21 2018 8:39am
Managing thousands of small cylindrical cells is a short term solution. None of the other carmakers seem to be interested in that. For the long haul much larger cells will take over and obsolete all the small cell systems. You have to decide what you want to own. If the technology is not stable, you have the option of leasing, or buying used after the depreciation. Don't get caught in the hype.

Powerwall batteries don't have the same requirements as vehicles.
Things re changing.

Alta uses round cells. And many others will be starting very soon. You will actually likely see a lot of the industry head to round cells not the other way around. Tesla is a clear leader in the Industry. Let me ask you this which is better having 1 of 10 3ah cells in parallel die and burn its fuse out in a pack Or having 1 of 2 15ah cells die in a pack... Which one looses you more range? I can't say much more as i Signed a couple NDAs on it. A year ago I would have thought round cells didn't make any sense.
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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