Tesla Model 3

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billvon   10 MW

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Dec 31 2018 1:15pm

TheBeastie wrote:
Dec 29 2018 7:56am
I am seeing more and more news/claims that insurance costs on Tesla's are going through the roof in costs, because repairs take a long time and are costly, and possibly Tesla EVs attract bad drivers, apparently.
For all the people out there who really need reasons to dislike Teslas, a list of the top 10 reasons to not buy a Tesla (from Cleantechnica.) The top 6:

1) Safety just not your thing
2) You really don't like rapid acceleration
3) Semi-autonomous driving is scary
4) Just a fan of pollution
5) Can't stand American companies
6) You like a little shake and rumble in your ride

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/24/10 ... seriously/
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Dec 31 2018 5:17pm

Arlo1 wrote:
Dec 30 2018 1:40pm
lester12483 wrote:
Dec 30 2018 12:55pm
Hopefully Tesla has a profitable year in 2019.
Elon said they will be profitable for now on. Other than when big re-payments come due. I think a big re-payment is due soon. But I bet that 1/4 they will just break even. All the rest will be profitable.
He also said that they "needed 5000/week to break even , and then build on that to turn a profit..."
and...
“For us, making 5,000 cars in a week for Model 3 is not a big deal. That’s just normal. Now we’re working on raising to 6,000 and then 7,000 Model 3s a week, while still keeping costs under control. We could probably do 6,000 or more, maybe 6,500 Model 3s a week right now, but it would have to stress people out and do tons of overtime,” he said....
.. (Third qtr earnings call)
But they have not been able to avarage that 5k/week yet !
..sohow can they claim to be profitable ??...
..more creative accounting ?
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Dec 31 2018 6:26pm

Bahaha like always reaching to try to turn good news into bad news. 4th 1/4 will be profitable and anoounced soon. Wana place a wager?

Also they went through extreme costs cutting measures and streamlined production.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » Feb 01 2019 6:29pm

I wonder how long a model 3 would last in Chicago at the moment without any preparation, most ice cars batterys won't crank the starter, it's not as bad as a 12hour task getting steam up in loco but how long can a full charge keep it alive for what's the differences and little tricks that can he done.

I've seen farmers lighting fires under a tractor engine to help warm the area with the battery in the house being warmed too so that's bit of a task when temp gets cold enough.

Will there be a day with electric when it can deal with the extremes of temps with ease ?

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Feb 01 2019 6:36pm

Ianhill wrote:
Feb 01 2019 6:29pm
Will there be a day with electric when it can deal with the extremes of temps with ease ?
Two current solutions to that issue (very low temps) -

1) Remain plugged in when parked. Many EV's will run a heater to keep the battery warm enough while parked. (It will also run the heater when unplugged but obviously you will lose range.)

2) Go the PHEV route and use the ICE engine for heat when it's that cold out. (Keep in mind that a PHEV, having something like 8kwhrs available nominally with a starter motor rated in kilowatts, will not have cranking problems.)
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » Feb 01 2019 7:35pm

billvon wrote:
Feb 01 2019 6:36pm
Ianhill wrote:
Feb 01 2019 6:29pm
Will there be a day with electric when it can deal with the extremes of temps with ease ?
Two current solutions to that issue (very low temps) -

1) Remain plugged in when parked. Many EV's will run a heater to keep the battery warm enough while parked. (It will also run the heater when unplugged but obviously you will lose range.)

2) Go the PHEV route and use the ICE engine for heat when it's that cold out. (Keep in mind that a PHEV, having something like 8kwhrs available nominally with a starter motor rated in kilowatts, will not have cranking problems.)
I think a pruis for example will struggle on the traction battery side even with the nimh being better in thermal lows at -20 They got to sag surely but even a heavily sagging pack will turn the ice engine over so maybe the prius is quite robust in this area.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Punx0r » Feb 02 2019 2:43pm

The plug-in Prius uses a li-ion pack. But both li-ion and nimh cars use a 12V lead-acid battery for starting the engine.

-30 or -40°C are pretty standard temperatures for manufacturers to test their cars, including starting. of course, if any aspect of the engine or electrical system is not up to "as-new" standards then a cold morning is the first time you'll fine. Old agricultural and industrial diesel engines are another matter entirely...

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 04 2019 1:25pm

I've got my first model 3 test drive scheduled for this weekend! I drove a model S last year and I can't wait to experience the difference!


There's a dude here in DC that charges his model 3 through the window of his row home. Lol!!! Just cracks the window enough to fit the charger through then puts a towel on the sil to prevent cold air from coming in. Maybe I'll have to get a pic when I go by...lol should I ask him if he needs help putting in a 240v outlet outside...?

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Feb 04 2019 1:51pm

Philaphlous wrote:
Feb 04 2019 1:25pm
There's a dude here in DC that charges his model 3 through the window of his row home. Lol!!!
I do that when I stay at hotels with no chargers nearby. Get a room on the first floor and run an extension cord through the window. (It was pretty important back when I had a Leaf, less so with the Model S/Prius Prime.)
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by cricketo » Feb 04 2019 11:02pm

billvon wrote:
Feb 04 2019 1:51pm
I do that when I stay at hotels with no chargers nearby. Get a room on the first floor and run an extension cord through the window.
Have you tried using A/C outlet for that ?

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Feb 04 2019 11:33pm

cricketo wrote:
Feb 04 2019 11:02pm
Have you tried using A/C outlet for that ?
I like the A/C, usually. (And charging overnight at 120V gives me 40 miles of range or so which is usually plenty.)

But I do carry around a bag of adapters for other purposes. I have friends about 40 miles away, for example, and I use their dryer outlet when necessary.
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by cricketo » Feb 05 2019 12:02am

billvon wrote:
Feb 04 2019 11:33pm
I like the A/C, usually. (And charging overnight at 120V gives me 40 miles of range or so which is usually plenty.)

But I do carry around a bag of adapters for other purposes. I have friends about 40 miles away, for example, and I use their dryer outlet when necessary.
:thumb:

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 05 2019 7:34am

billvon wrote:
Feb 04 2019 11:33pm
cricketo wrote:
Feb 04 2019 11:02pm
Have you tried using A/C outlet for that ?
I like the A/C, usually. (And charging overnight at 120V gives me 40 miles of range or so which is usually plenty.)

But I do carry around a bag of adapters for other purposes. I have friends about 40 miles away, for example, and I use their dryer outlet when necessary.
I wonder when they'll start building homes with a 60A 240v outllet in the garage standard...

I'm sure once Tesla becomes even more popular and more ev's are making it into the market businesses are going to start cracking down on stuff like that.

I wonder....can you have a gas generator in your trunk with it open slightly to vent and drive while it's plugged in? Lol

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by cricketo » Feb 05 2019 10:31am

Philaphlous wrote:
Feb 05 2019 7:34am
I wonder when they'll start building homes with a 60A 240v outllet in the garage standard...
Things like that are dictated by profitability and regulations. Is it more profitable for the developers to put those outlets into garages ? Probably makes no difference, so they won't think about it unless a customer specifically requests it. And building codes can be updated requiring that such outlet is present, then developers will have to comply.

Kind of on a related topic, new construction doesn't take into account rooftop solar all that much - roofs are still sloped in all kinds of directions, geometries are crazy with things sticking out, all making it more difficult for setting up large solar arrays. Again, something the building codes need to address.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Feb 05 2019 11:35am

Philaphlous wrote:
Feb 05 2019 7:34am
I wonder when they'll start building homes with a 60A 240v outllet in the garage standard...
Most houses have a 40A 240V outlet in the washroom, which is enough for most EV's.
I wonder....can you have a gas generator in your trunk with it open slightly to vent and drive while it's plugged in? Lol
The simple answer is no; a generator that big is going to shake the car like crazy, get hot, take a lot of room etc. The vehicles that have done it (like the BMW i3) put a lot of money into developing a generator that's small enough, efficient enough and quiet enough to work well.

But there are a lot of cars now that come with a gas engine already integrated (Prius Prime, Volt) that solve 90% of those problems. Keep in mind that it's always better to use an ICE engine to spin the wheels than to use an ICE engine to spin a generator, produce power, regulate it, then use that power to drive the wheels.
--bill von

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Feb 05 2019 11:37am

cricketo wrote:
Feb 05 2019 10:31am
Kind of on a related topic, new construction doesn't take into account rooftop solar all that much - roofs are still sloped in all kinds of directions, geometries are crazy with things sticking out, all making it more difficult for setting up large solar arrays. Again, something the building codes need to address.
I'm not sure how codes would address that. "You have to have a mostly planar roof?"

Here in CA, where they are now mandating solar on most new homes (which is a mistake IMO) there will be plenty of pressure to design homes that make solar installs cheaper. However, the pressure will only be to build homes that can fit the minimum size mandated by law.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Chalo » Feb 05 2019 12:06pm

billvon wrote:
Feb 05 2019 11:37am
Here in CA, where they are now mandating solar on most new homes (which is a mistake IMO)
Yeah, that makes as much sense as requiring laundry machines, air conditioning, or car parking (the latter of which usually is required even if the owner has no desire for a car). Folks will do it without being required, if it suits their purposes.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by neptronix » Feb 05 2019 5:03pm

Chalo wrote:
Feb 05 2019 12:06pm
billvon wrote:
Feb 05 2019 11:37am
Here in CA, where they are now mandating solar on most new homes (which is a mistake IMO)
Yeah, that makes as much sense as requiring laundry machines, air conditioning, or car parking (the latter of which usually is required even if the owner has no desire for a car). Folks will do it without being required, if it suits their purposes.
Sorry to derail this thread, but..

These kinds of laws are actually designed to keep the poor people out by raising the cost of entry to home ownership. You can find this all over the country, but California has some of the most onerous laws in this regard.



I was just watching this video today about how one guy realized all this and decided to expand his property by skirting the laws..
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Punx0r » Feb 05 2019 5:50pm

billvon wrote:
Feb 05 2019 11:35am
Keep in mind that it's always better to use an ICE engine to spin the wheels than to use an ICE engine to spin a generator, produce power, regulate it, then use that power to drive the wheels.
There might not be a lot in it, but I'm surprised you say that. I'd have intuitively put money on it that a smaller ICE run intermittently at peak efficiency to recharge the traction pack would be more efficient than constant direct mechanical drive. Total drive-train losses for the hybrid system are probably 5% greater?

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Feb 05 2019 6:00pm

Punx0r wrote:
Feb 05 2019 5:50pm
There might not be a lot in it, but I'm surprised you say that. I'd have intuitively put money on it that a smaller ICE run intermittently at peak efficiency to recharge the traction pack would be more efficient than constant direct mechanical drive. Total drive-train losses for the hybrid system are probably 5% greater?
Probably. Compare that to ~40% for the charge-discharge cycle loss.

In general, the fewer conversion steps, the better. An ICE used only at highway speeds - with electric taking care of city driving - is pretty hard to beat.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » Feb 05 2019 8:03pm

A hybrid system with heat scavenging from the ice engine could operate at extremely low temps without being attached to the grid or being touch for a long period of time, I think hybrids manufacturer's could design a extremely efficient car that's robust enough to use in extreme conditions without a continuous grid tie.

This is where pure electric needs to become more robust long periods of cold exposure with no grid tie as it's using energy sitting there that's not taking into account on the odometer or overall efficiency so get that nailed and cold climates will have cars that can fit a charging infrastructure of 40 min quick charges weekly while food shopping or parked at work.

My argument for this is I can not charge at my house along with millions of other people with no access so my car will be sat in the cold not tied to grid through winter nights and would that mean I can not use the car due to it being to cold or will it use it's capacity to keep warm giving a time limit to how long it can be left idol and using energy again not on the odometer leading to more regular charging intervals.

I know people will say charge at work but what about disabled and enemployed vehicle owners the best way is a car that can remain idol for weeks without energy usage and capable of being used even if it's a safe mode that limits power then charging infrastructure at supermarkets and shopping malls etc as more people will be replaced by robot less will travel to and from a large work situation as these company's make the change to AI.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by neptronix » Feb 05 2019 8:34pm

The motor generator idea failed a long time ago with the Fisker Karma, and wasn't so great in the BMW i3, although they had too small of a generator.

Here's a quick idea of the losses..
On the way in..
ICE mechanical energy > electric motor ( 5-10% loss )
electric motor > battery ( 2-6% loss )
On the way out..
battery > electric motor ( 2-4% loss )
electric motor > motion ( 5-10% loss )

Whereas if we put the gas engine to the road, we'd see this..
ICE mechanical energy > transmission ( ~7% loss )

This is why all hybrid cars and most plugins link the gas engine to the wheels.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by cricketo » Feb 05 2019 10:14pm

neptronix wrote:
Feb 05 2019 8:34pm
ICE mechanical energy > transmission ( ~7% loss )
What does this 7% represent ? Increased friction due to gear box ? Oil pumps ? Sub-optimal engine performance due to variance in RPM ? Friction losses in the transmission ? Any difference between 2wd, 4wd, FWD, RWD ?

Also don't tell these guys :)

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Feb 05 2019 10:19pm

Ianhill wrote:
Feb 05 2019 8:03pm
My argument for this is I can not charge at my house
Why not? I've charged at hotels. It's not hard.
I know people will say charge at work but what about disabled . . .
Here in CA if there are EV charging spots, one of them has to be a handicapped spot. So they are covered.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by billvon » Feb 05 2019 10:20pm

neptronix wrote:
Feb 05 2019 8:34pm
The motor generator idea failed a long time ago with the Fisker Karma, and wasn't so great in the BMW i3, although they had too small of a generator.
. . .
This is why all hybrid cars and most plugins link the gas engine to the wheels.
I would also point out that the Volt originally claimed that they had a fully separate engine/generator and motor system - until someone investigated, and sure enough, in hybrid mode the ICE was sometimes linked directly to the wheels.
--bill von

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