No future for charging networks ?

Topics related to EV businesses
User avatar
Lebowski   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3313
Joined: Jun 28 2011 1:38am
Location: beautiful Zurich, Switzerland

No future for charging networks ?

Post by Lebowski » Apr 18 2019 12:43am

At the moment EV cars have a rang of what, 300 to 500 km ? So enough for normal commuting but not for a big road trip.

But you can see it coming that battery capacity per weights and cost will come to the point that a typical EV will have 1000 km or more range. At which point the range is larger than what can be driven in a single day. So then theoretically, when you start out with a full charge in the morning there is no need anymore to charge or top up during the day.

So will at this point all fast charging networks, gas station like charging structures etc have become obsolete ? When you can charge up during the night, either at home, the hotel you're staying etc , and drive for more than humanly possible in 1 day, what is the point of (gas)stations ?

Does this mean a few years from now all 150kW fast chargers etc will be broken down again ? I mean, probably you'll need like 200 to 250kWh for a days driving, a puny 25kWh charger can full up the battery overnight...

Thougts ?

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14530
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by fechter » Apr 18 2019 8:49am

I never thought about it like that. I suppose it could be true. But I think it will be quite a while before we see batteries with that kind of performance. Meanwhile, there will be a need for those charging stations and people with "old tech" batteries may need them until their car wears out or they can get better batteries.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

Punx0r   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5436
Joined: May 03 2012 8:16am
Location: England

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by Punx0r » Apr 18 2019 4:27pm

Large numbers of people are unable to charge at home due to on-street parking

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 28651
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by amberwolf » Apr 19 2019 2:16am

There will probably always be small-capacity cars out there; economics suggests low-end low-range cars will always be available, yet often enough owners of those will still need to take trips longer than their pack can handle (especially as the car ages, and they cant' afford or don't want to replace the car or pack).

So the charging networks would still be useful for that reason alone, and as noted above, there are other reasons.

cricketo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 504
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by cricketo » Apr 19 2019 7:16pm

Lebowski wrote:
Apr 18 2019 12:43am
At the moment EV cars have a rang of what, 300 to 500 km ? So enough for normal commuting but not for a big road trip.
On par with gas / diesel vehicles that are used for long road trips all the time.

But you can see it coming that battery capacity per weights and cost will come to the point that a typical EV will have 1000 km or more range.
We will then also have flying "cars". But really, have you seen any research that promises something like that within a few years ?

At which point the range is larger than what can be driven in a single day.
By a single human. Multiple drivers, or computer can drive virtually indefinitely.

So then theoretically, when you start out with a full charge in the morning there is no need anymore to charge or top up during the day.
Also depends on the conditions. Cold weather, additional drag / resistance from towing will significantly reduce range.

So will at this point all fast charging networks, gas station like charging structures etc have become obsolete ?
Never. Unlike Europe, North America has many places without any significant infrastructure for hundreds of miles. Combined with the fact you can't easily get high current interconnects at any random motel, there will always be room for specialized charging stations in places where power is available. Or not, as Tesla is planning to setup solar-powered charging stations in the middle of nowhere.
Thougts ?
My thought is you should go get a beer, as you're obviously bored.

Cephalotus   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 657
Joined: Jun 18 2012 12:27pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by Cephalotus » Jun 15 2019 2:34pm

Lebowski wrote:
Apr 18 2019 12:43am

But you can see it coming that battery capacity per weights and cost will come to the point that a typical EV will have 1000 km or more range. At which point the range is larger than what can be driven in a single day. So then theoretically, when you start out with a full charge in the morning there is no need anymore to charge or top up during the day.

...Does this mean a few years from now all 150kW fast chargers etc will be broken down again ? I mean, probably you'll need like 200 to 250kWh for a days driving, a puny 25kWh charger can full up the battery overnight...
I doubt that 1000km range will be possible, definitely not common, especially not at German Autobahn speed.

For Germany ultra quick charging (up to 350kW) is expected to make up 5% of all charginging kWh, the majority will charge at home or at work anyway.

On the other hand: The average car runs less than 15,000km a year over here. A 1000km rang baterry would have 15 full cycles per year. What a wate of ressource.

500km range at the Autobahn is perfectly fine and after that a short stop and a 350-400kW charge.

sleepy_tired   100 W

100 W
Posts: 102
Joined: Jul 02 2019 11:46am

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by sleepy_tired » Aug 23 2019 3:42am

On par with gas / diesel vehicles that are used for long road trips all the time.
The worst car, in terms of range, I've driven is my little econobox with a 10 gallon gas tank and it gets around 340-450 miles at 75mph. So better then 500 km always. The bigger difference, of course, is that it takes 10 minutes to fill my tank up.

Right now going EV would turn a 14 hour trip I normally take into a 20 hour trip. Which is a lot better then it's ever been before.

Get rid of strategically placed chargers and such a trip would be worthless. You are looking at a 3 day trip, minimum, and that is only if you can hyper-mill at slower speeds.
By a single human. Multiple drivers, or computer can drive virtually indefinitely.
This is true, provided people can sleep in the car comfortably. A trip in a Tesla would be do-able, but unpleasant the way things are right now.


If people can produce batteries that provide a boost of 3x over current battery tech then that would mean that ICE cars would be completely obsolete. No question about it. But you'd still need charging stations on highways here and there.

User avatar
Dauntless   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8052
Joined: May 29 2010 1:49am
Location: Coordinates: 33°52′48″N 117°55′43″W

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by Dauntless » Aug 23 2019 2:54pm

Simply put, more and more range means less need for charging for a single car. But more and more cars means more need. So it's possible it would balance out, but more likely you see more need. The growth curve might be in the law of diminshing returns, needing fewer and fewer additional chargers for more and more cars, but still needing more.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

cheapracer   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Sep 11 2013 9:30am

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by cheapracer » Sep 15 2019 12:36pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Jun 15 2019 2:34pm


500km range at the Autobahn is perfectly fine and after that a short stop and a 350-400kW charge.
If I sit on around 190 to 200 kmh, I destroy upwards of 400kms of range in about 20-25 minutes in my Tesla S.

All my EVs are the same, they use expotentially more 'fuel' than an ICE does as the speed rises.

I foresee speeds being lower in EVs, or more chargers closer together!

User avatar
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2573
Joined: Feb 09 2007 3:02am
Location: Marlboro

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Sep 17 2019 11:52am

once pedrocanada gets involved, you know it's over.
https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal ... ge-network
You’ve always been able to drive from the Rockies to the Maritimes. And now, you can do it in an electric vehicle.
https://leaderpost.com/news/local-news/ ... ay-in-sask

User avatar
methods   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4652
Joined: Aug 08 2008 12:08pm
Location: Santa Cruz CA
Contact:

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by methods » Oct 21 2019 1:10pm

Lebowski wrote:
Apr 18 2019 12:43am
...

So will at this point all fast charging networks, gas station like charging structures etc have become obsolete ? ....

Thougts ?
I would zoom out and frame up a bigger picture.
I believe we are moving into a new sort of economy that depends on distributed power availability

I guess...
Picture what would happen if the Electric Grid went down and all of us had EV's

Immediately -
There would be a great market developing for power that can be transferred quickly

Going thru a bunch of brain storm like that results in:

* Power needs to be distributed and not central
* Power needs to transfer quickly, not overnight
* Power sources are mobile for the most part
* Power is coming in from 10, 20 sources...
* Power transfer is bi-directional
* Gasoline no longer exists or costs $10/$20 a gallon

... Generation of Power
... Storage of Power
... Micro-gridding

So -
Just like folks in the deep woods have a well for their water

So -
Just like folks half way out in the woods have collections and collaborations

...

Think about Compatibility
Think about Taxation
Think about Metering

... Think about the bastards who want to see an air tight economic model before they will stop gumming up the works.

... ... sat thru a lot of these presentations and proposals.
MicroGrid

That came up a lot
Decentralized Power

... sorta ... successful the way Terrorism is...
Headless snake or snake with many heads

That direction.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

User avatar
methods   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4652
Joined: Aug 08 2008 12:08pm
Location: Santa Cruz CA
Contact:

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by methods » Oct 21 2019 1:14pm

Price Setting -
Via apps
... as easy as Uber


"I need 12KW over on 5th street on the double"
- $0.25/kw, be there in 3 minutes
- $0.75/kw, be there in 20 min
- $0.35/kw, service contract

A market
App based
Those in the middle take a TINY slice...

No MASS infrastructure to maintain.
Mobile Power - same as driving around Cement Trucks or Milk Vessels...

Just another thing we truck around
(and that of course brings us back to wires... the mess of damn wires...)

Like pipelines

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

User avatar
The fingers   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7166
Joined: Mar 11 2012 11:22pm
Location: Desert Pacific Cali USA

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by The fingers » Oct 21 2019 2:59pm

Maybe U-Haul will rent generator/charging trailers for long EV trips/vacations. :mrgreen:
Black Schwinn High Sierra
Blue Schwinn Cruiser 5
Blue Schwinn High Plains
Black Fiore Cruzer 5: Amped Warp Drive 26" Front DD/SLA kit
http://ghostbikes.org/
http://www.rideofsilence.org/main.php
Hebrews 9:27

raylo32   100 W

100 W
Posts: 112
Joined: Jan 04 2019 3:09pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by raylo32 » Oct 22 2019 7:39am

Except then you need several hours to "fill up" instead of 5 minutes... that is IF you can find an unoccupied charger. If you aren't first in line for the charger might as well get a room for the night.

And I'll believe 1000+ KM range batteries in a meaningful sized vehicle when I see them.
cricketo wrote:
Apr 19 2019 7:16pm
Lebowski wrote:
Apr 18 2019 12:43am
At the moment EV cars have a rang of what, 300 to 500 km ? So enough for normal commuting but not for a big road trip.
On par with gas / diesel vehicles that are used for long road trips all the time.

cricketo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 504
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by cricketo » Oct 22 2019 10:08am

raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 7:39am
Except then you need several hours to "fill up" instead of 5 minutes... that is IF you can find an unoccupied charger. If you aren't first in line for the charger might as well get a room for the night.
Several hours ? Ever heard of Tesla ? :)
And I'll believe 1000+ KM range batteries in a meaningful sized vehicle when I see them.
Large batteries are not beneficial. They're heavy and expensive. 350-400km range is probably the most optimal, with non-linear recharge time.

raylo32   100 W

100 W
Posts: 112
Joined: Jan 04 2019 3:09pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by raylo32 » Oct 22 2019 10:15am

OK, 75 minutes to full charge on a supercharger... If one is available... vs 5 minutes to fuel a petrol car. Good luck with that. But I do like the Teslas for commuting.

I believe the OP was talking about leaps in battery technology that might increase energy density to get 1000km out of a reasonable sized pack. I guess we'll see where the limit lies.
cricketo wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:08am
raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 7:39am
Except then you need several hours to "fill up" instead of 5 minutes... that is IF you can find an unoccupied charger. If you aren't first in line for the charger might as well get a room for the night.
Several hours ? Ever heard of Tesla ? :)
And I'll believe 1000+ KM range batteries in a meaningful sized vehicle when I see them.
Large batteries are not beneficial. They're heavy and expensive. 350-400km range is probably the most optimal, with non-linear recharge time.

cricketo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 504
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by cricketo » Oct 22 2019 10:29am

raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:15am
OK, 75 minutes to full charge on a supercharger... If one is available... vs 5 minutes to fuel a petrol car. Good luck with that. But I do like the Teslas for commuting.
You don't need a full charge. Teslas can charge much faster in the lower range of SoC, getting as much as 250km of range in 10 minutes or so. The idea is no reasonable person can travel 4-5 hours without taking bathroom and food breaks, or even just stretching up. If you just do that every two hours, for ten minutes at a supercharger, you will have more remaining range than you can actually need on your journey.
I believe the OP was talking about leaps in battery technology that might increase energy density to get 1000km out of a reasonable sized pack. I guess we'll see where the limit lies.
Size is only half of the problem. Weight is the real killer.

raylo32   100 W

100 W
Posts: 112
Joined: Jan 04 2019 3:09pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by raylo32 » Oct 22 2019 10:32am

Yes, I know. But that means you just have to stop again sooner than you should. Sorry, these cars make no sense on road trips and will only get worse when there are more of them out there to clog the chargers.
cricketo wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:29am
raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:15am
OK, 75 minutes to full charge on a supercharger... If one is available... vs 5 minutes to fuel a petrol car. Good luck with that. But I do like the Teslas for commuting.
You don't need a full charge. Teslas can charge much faster in the lower range of SoC, getting as much as 250km of range in 10 minutes or so. The idea is no reasonable person can travel 4-5 hours without taking bathroom and food breaks, or even just stretching up. If you just do that every two hours, for ten minutes at a supercharger, you will have more remaining range than you can actually need on your journey.

cricketo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 504
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by cricketo » Oct 22 2019 10:37am

raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:32am
Yes, I know. But that means you just have to stop again sooner than you should. Sorry, these cars make no sense on road trips and will only get worse when there are more of them out there to clog the chargers.
Oh, horror! I guess you've never seen how people travel in the US. Giant trailers hooked up to monster trucks, getting only some 100 miles (160km) between fills. And I absolutely disagree, these cars (Teslas specifically) are cars that happen to be electric. They're not electric cars, they're not commuter cars, they're just cars of the 21st century :)

raylo32   100 W

100 W
Posts: 112
Joined: Jan 04 2019 3:09pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by raylo32 » Oct 22 2019 10:40am

LOL... I was comparing apples to apples, the practicality of traveling in fuel cars vs. electric cars carrying a couple of people and their stuff, not pickups pulling trailers?? What does that have to do with anything?
cricketo wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:37am
raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:32am
Yes, I know. But that means you just have to stop again sooner than you should. Sorry, these cars make no sense on road trips and will only get worse when there are more of them out there to clog the chargers.
Oh, horror! I guess you've never seen how people travel in the US. Giant trailers hooked up to monster trucks, getting only some 100 miles (160km) between fills. And I absolutely disagree, these cars (Teslas specifically) are cars that happen to be electric. They're not electric cars, they're not commuter cars, they're just cars of the 21st century :)

cricketo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 504
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by cricketo » Oct 22 2019 11:10am

raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:40am
LOL... I was comparing apples to apples, the practicality of traveling in fuel cars vs. electric cars carrying a couple of people and their stuff, not pickups pulling trailers?? What does that have to do with anything?
You were introducing FUD into the conversation, so I brought in an anecdote to respond with. Either way your fear is irrelevant, as this is quickly becoming the way people are traveling. I am on the US West coast (Oregon), and it's not uncommon now to see Tesla's with Florida, NY and other East coast number plates. It's working fine for people on 5000km trips, it will work fine for you on 500km ones :)

raylo32   100 W

100 W
Posts: 112
Joined: Jan 04 2019 3:09pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by raylo32 » Oct 22 2019 11:26am

Not sure what FUD is... whatever. When I travel from here to Florida I can get in my car in the morning and drive the 1050 miles straight through in about 14 hours, including 2 fuel stops. With a Tesla that would simply be impossible. You'd need at least 4 extra hours to charge which pretty much means another day. To me that is impractical. Maybe not to you.

cricketo wrote:
Oct 22 2019 11:10am
raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:40am
LOL... I was comparing apples to apples, the practicality of traveling in fuel cars vs. electric cars carrying a couple of people and their stuff, not pickups pulling trailers?? What does that have to do with anything?
You were introducing FUD into the conversation, so I brought in an anecdote to respond with. Either way your fear is irrelevant, as this is quickly becoming the way people are traveling. I am on the US West coast (Oregon), and it's not uncommon now to see Tesla's with Florida, NY and other East coast number plates. It's working fine for people on 5000km trips, it will work fine for you on 500km ones :)

Balmorhea   100 W

100 W
Posts: 224
Joined: Oct 01 2019 8:30pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by Balmorhea » Oct 22 2019 2:58pm

Lebowski wrote:
Apr 18 2019 12:43am
But you can see it coming that battery capacity per weights and cost will come to the point that a typical EV will have 1000 km or more range.
I doubt it. Beyond a certain capacity, say 300 miles/500 km, many if not most people will opt for lower cost, lower vehicle weight, more payload, and more interior space rather than an extra 500km worth of battery they would use only a couple of times a year.

Yes, there are some folks who buy a daily driver based on towing capabilities or something else they very rarely use, but I think they're generally the exception.

Besides, as electric cars become common and autonomous cars capitalize on the benefits of electric cars, I believe we'll see fewer and fewer people owning cars. I think fleet vehicles will tend towards shorter range than personal vehicles, not longer. That means more charging points, not fewer.

cricketo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 504
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by cricketo » Oct 22 2019 3:39pm

FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Once again, I'm not sure where you got 4 hours from - if you get 160 miles in 10 minutes of charging, that's less than an hour of charging for entire trip (assuming you start it with a full "tank"). Also if you do manage to make a 14 hour trip with only two 5 minute stops for gas, I'd say you're quite a unique individual.
raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 11:26am
Not sure what FUD is... whatever. When I travel from here to Florida I can get in my car in the morning and drive the 1050 miles straight through in about 14 hours, including 2 fuel stops. With a Tesla that would simply be impossible. You'd need at least 4 extra hours to charge which pretty much means another day. To me that is impractical. Maybe not to you.

Punx0r   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5436
Joined: May 03 2012 8:16am
Location: England

Re: No future for charging networks ?

Post by Punx0r » Oct 23 2019 2:22am

raylo32 wrote:
Oct 22 2019 11:26am
When I travel from here to Florida I can get in my car in the morning and drive the 1050 miles straight through in about 14 hours, including 2 fuel stops. With a Tesla that would simply be impossible. You'd need at least 4 extra hours to charge which pretty much means another day. To me that is impractical. Maybe not to you.
Congratulations on your strong bladder. Your usage represents about 0.000001% of car journeys. If an EV doesn't work for you then so be it.

Post Reply