Using EV Chargers

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 11:05am

OK
I have to go do work now

I wake up at 4:20AM
I hammer on this

At "normal person awake now" time I have to go be normal person
Work for money
You know... :banana:

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 11:49am

mmm.....

I have never had Pancakes and Vodka for breakfast :bigthumb:


This thread shall serve as a reminder.
We all forget - even I do

There are endless forums where the answer you seek is fluffed, folded, and ready to wrap your soft little body into.
Take this for example: https://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-note-9

That is where literally thousands of people focus on a single thing.
Guys who drink Vodka for breakfast post little nibbles
Guys who cant get laid collect all those nibbles
You end up with a beautiful meal. . . a big fluffy blanket or towel

Rad
I support that

... Over here in EV land... it is a bit different.

All the players in this game are L O C K E D I N someplace.
Right?

Take Zero Motorcycles for example
Super small company
Right up the road from me

Those guys are super grinding on making deliverables. They dont have time to come out here to fluff and fold for you. LOL... They may drop a hint. They may re-direct... but for the most part it is a super small crowd.

...

All of this "Forum Stuff" roots to H A R D W O R K

Hard work for no pay

And that is what this thread is about.

....

Watch a guy like Luke
He works his ass off 24/7
Not because he has good work ethic (lol) mostly because his brain is broken (as is mine) and we need some sort of outlet to not explode...

The output of this outlet is technical information
Others "Harvest" our technical information
IF
IF you post enough good technical information over a long enough time period then you start to get rewards.

Companies hire you
Rich guys pay you to do projects
Stuff like that just comes along.

It is a mix of Personality, Attitude, Network. . . Work ethic, know-how, Can-do-attitude.... Experience....

So
I am over here posting in an area where I do not have to interact. You will notice that a great deal of our best forum contributors are MIA. Sometimes this is due to life... sometimes interests change... sometimes guys check out...

But most of the time...
It is because a forum douche'es out
This is when the ratio of question askers (information demanding lurks) start to far outweigh contributors

...

Contributing comes in many forms

Some contribute by moderating. By running off the riff-raff. This is super important.
Some contribute raw technical content
Some contribute questions... they play the student... they keep the discussion going
Some contribute by dropping cash. Maybe they front the cash on a buy of 20pcs of something
Some just shit talk constantly... petty little jabs...

Takes all sorts

My goal with this thread is to onboard some of the newer members.
These may be lurks
These may be long time semi-contributors

I want to set up a reminder that the way all this works... is that one guy gets BENT and starts hyper-focusing on some goal he wants to achieve... and... sometimes others contribute... sometimes they dont... but in the end we get the data down

We get the Variables mapped
We get the Constants mapped
We get the Players mapped

We get the API mapped
We get the bullshit sorted and sifted and tossed thru...

So
I am going to get this going back here where I dont have to chat

If I get to the point where we have functional hardware that will communicate with a Level 5 charger I will bring it out into the forum for discussion.

Please PM me if you can help
I dont want to get caught up in side tracks, chit-chat, or fending off detractors.

I can solve this
I want to solve this
More importantly I want to show how I solve things

... I come at things from 15 directions ... then 5 directions... then 3 directions... and then I just run thru the permutations of 9 until I have it all mapped out

Then
My risk goes down and I can afford to order parts, lay out PCB boards, write 20hrs of software, etc

... You do it how you do it
This is how I do it.

... If the project stalls out - it is only because I have to go do paying work
This is NOT paid work

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Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 12:04pm

OK

The reason you sometimes have Pancakes and Vodka for breakfast is to S L O W D O W N
Right?

methods == :pancake:

So we need to poke around
See if anyone has done this already
https://www.openevse.com/parts.html

Tons of places like this. They have beat the crap out of the J1772 deal.

... All great

What you will find is that if you start trying to get serious you will end up in a Black Hole of nothingness.

Key words are:
Level 3 Charging
CCS
CCS1
CCS2
Combined Charging System
... eh... start reading
CCS.png
It is a bit confusing
There are US and EU connectors
I call these CCS1 and CCS2

CCS1 has the round connector we see here in the States
CCS2 has the D-Shape connector we .... dont see here

It is confusing because there was a CCS1 and CCS2 specification
Rad eh?

Even the military does a better job of dissambiguating things - which - leads me to believe that folks WANT it to be complicated and ambiguous

Yep
There are many true believers who are just trying to work in the dark and set the pace

Yep
We must acknowledge, that I have PERSONALLY WITNESSED "Powers that Be" trying to undermine and slow down this movement

Undermine
Slow down
Impede

That is what Oil and Gas wants to do to maximize their profits
They are invested HEAVY into tooling
HEAVY into Logistics
Heavy into EVERYTHING

SO...
If they have to take this rotten pill....
They are going to take it as slow as possible

... ... ... ..
KNOW THAT
OR GO TO A DIFFERENT THREAD
... ... ...

Some people are not your friends.

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 12:11pm

So when I grew up my Grandma was a doctor.
My Grandpa was too...

Suppository

That is how we are going to do this.
We are going to push this EV pill right up their ass.

:es:

Not a kids forum
We are building mopeds, motorcycles, powered unicycles... if you cant read the word ASS then get off this webpage.

K??

:P

Now
It is my intent to push a very large pill into the rectum of a very big industry.

We tried lube and all that
Did not work
They screamed and ran away

So
Now...
We are grinding up the pill
Putting it in their food
Putting it in their shampoo
Putting it all over their butt-wipes
Putting this stuff we call "EV" all over everything so they can absorb it thru the skin

Because...
It is IMPORTANT

We ... need to get this show on the road and ... we need to recognize that there are active haters who have billions of dollars who totally want to take a dump in our living room

:flame:

Best way to fight off haters is with TECHNICAL CONTENT
Physics
Proofs

Reference Tesla
Who... argues with THAT proof>>>???

Now
We have to charge all this crap
We are WAY behind the ball on this

Step 1)
Get over yourself

If you know how to do this you are not special. You are not a snow flake. You are now required to help, share, and teach others. We need your Frucking help rolling this out.

Its going to be super dangerous
We are going to wreck cars, start fires, burn down houses... all that shit... it is going to happen... so be careful

It is time
... (k)

now I feel like getting back to it (I am avoiding my Work Computer. It is timecard day and I wont be submitting one)

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 12:24pm

Ok...

We start by searching for Demo Kit,
Eval Kit
Other

https://www.electricautomationnetwork.c ... rQYdI_0Icg

Rad
Thanks Phoenix Contact for offering a thousand dollar connector (sigh...)

I have looked at a lot of data sheets like this
Get familiar
https://www.electricautomationnetwork.c ... 409060.pdf

K... IP44
Now we know that a plugged in EV connector will run 850V in an IP44 config

...

We will have to far exceed this of coruse
Our box will be IP67+ rated for salt exposure at the dock

We will be running out of Santa Cruz Harbor
https://www.santacruzharbor.org/

If you want to see the girls playing vollyball (right now I imagine...)
Here is the cam-link to the beach in front of my house (pics or it did not happen)
You can control the camera... poke the button

Control
Positions
Beach
BeachCam.png
No greasy studs out there yet
No G-Strings out there yet
BUT(T) THERE WILL BE

So... (wink)
Cruse by my house and we will go down there and dip into the ocean

Bring your wetsuit
Bring your booties
Bring your fins
Bring your hoodie
Bring your board

... K - got that out of the way...

All searches come up with nonsense like Wireless Charging
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536& ... -U5gMH98B4

We dont need wireless charging
First we need to charge with wires
Then we can go do wireless charing

LOL

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 12:29pm

New Search (it is all about how you search...)

"qualcomm evaluation kit"
KeyWords.png
If you want to break into anything you have to develop the vocabulary.
For Qualcomm it looks like the above

So
We start by seeing if Qualcomm wants to sell us some super-over-priced demo board
(i.e. Hardware Development Kit)

... The point of these kits is to lock in guys like me

... Most of these kits come with a Schematic and PCB Pictures

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 12:34pm

First lap around the track complete
FirstLap.png
So...
Do these clowns want to sell me something?

Do they want ... me to come over to the house and hang out...?
What gives?

How come I dont see anything to buy??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 12:40pm

OK

So far we can see that methods drinks Vodka for breakfast and watches the Beach Cam
eh HEM!

We can also see that we are dipping our toes into a big mess
Dont fret
All of this crap is going 30 different directions for several reason

1) They came up with it long before there was anything to test it on. So... it is bastard backwards. It is always this way. The C programming language was developed to solve a problem. It was then later used to solve other problems. 5 other languages were developed to be the UberLanguage. All of them failed hard. SO... What you are seeing is a bunch of blind groping in the dark.

2) Huge money grab. Biggest money grab you have ever seen

Forget all of that
We are a Vheicle
We dont have to deal with all that permutation and all that crap

There is an interface
This interface has a pinout
Those pins have a given function and attach to known hardware


That is 80% of the fight right there

Get there...
And the rest is all software

We are a Vehicle
We can choose ANY of these variants... assuming hardware compatibility

Everybody is either trying to set precedent or wait till it is set...
So... You want to go with what is most common
And... there are enough EV's out there now so...

JUST GO LOOK AT WHAT CHIPS ARE STOCKED BEST
K?

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 12:42pm

If you cant tell...
I am still trying to zoom in on the hardware

I will find it
I am collecting my little folder along the way

Data sheets
Presentations
Links
...

reference material :idea:

That way when I am sitting on the frucking plane to China and WiFi sucks I have something to do. ;-)

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 12:58pm

OK
Hardware compatibility

DO I need to run Qualcomm hardware?

https://assets.vector.com/cms/content/e ... _MStar.pdf
FirstLap.png
Dont know yet
Doing my own research
Not even going to the EV forums yet

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by fechter » Jun 07 2019 12:59pm

WTF are you trying to design?

I had to look up IEEE1901:
The 1901 standards include two different physical layers, one based on FFT orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing (OFDM) modulation and another based on wavelet OFDM modulation. Each PHY is optional, and implementers of the specification may, but are not required to, include both. The FFT PHY is derived from HomePlug AV technology and is deployed in HomePlug-based products. The Wavelet PHY is derived from HD-PLC technology and is deployed in HD-PLC-based products.[13]

The fast Fourier transform (FFT) PHY includes a forward error correction (FEC) scheme based on convolutional turbo code (CTC). The second option "Wavelet PHY" includes a mandatory FEC based on concatenated Reed-Solomon (RS) and Convolutional code, and an option to use Low-Density Parity-Check (LDPC) code.[14]

On top of these two physical layers, two different Media Access Control (MAC) layers were defined; one for In-home networking and the other for Internet access.[15] Two MACs were needed because each application has different requirements.

To manage coexistence between PHYs and MACs the Inter-System Protocol (ISP) was developed. ISP enables various BPL devices and systems to share communication resources (frequency/time) when installed in a network with common electrical wiring. ISP allows 1901-compliant devices and ITU-T G.hn- compliant devices to co-exist. The protocol provides configurable frequency division for Access and time division for in-home with a granularity compatible with the Quality of Service (QoS) requirements of the most demanding audio and video applications.
Looks easy enough. A way to send high speed data over power lines. Not sure how far it can go with that setup. Usually not past the first transformer.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 1:04pm

See... this part is just intern work

Find the players
Find the vocabulary

The internet is full of Old Information

HPGP LD
Ok - HP means Home Plug

You may know that
I know that
Now we know that

Apparently... we can attain compatibility
Ok - nice

I have been at this for 2 years and all I have heard is BLAH BLAH BLAH
I seek compatibility
Compatibility.png
We all like Charge Session Yes?
Charge Session is what we seek Yes?
Ok - Why dont we line that up?

... Down selecting on legacy compliance...
No idea what any of the major Charger Manufacturers are doing. Not going to ask. Just going to guess...

and maybe make a new standard.

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 1:07pm

BINGO
Bingo.png
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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 1:21pm

Grrrr.......

http://www.mstarsemi.com.tw/

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 1:24pm

So far with the naive approach

Dead links
No chips anywhere...

Closed industry?
Like when I try to get my AC compressor working and nobody will sell me parts?

Tell me I need special license?
Tell me that high-school dropout guy with certificate can buy parts but not me?

Sigh... OK...

Heading over to some EV forums to see if I can find some better leads

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 1:27pm

Oh boy...
Here we go...
Making first contact with sketch supplier from China :wink:

This always goes the same - sigh

Will report back

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 1:35pm

Message not delivered...
Blown back by servers

Grrr..... lol

I guess it would be the same if I were trying to get some high end oil refining equipment... YES?

... I have bought many things that others can not buy in my career. It just takes persistence. Whoever this company is I want them on the phone, I want to see what they have for sale, I want samples, I would prefer a demo-board, I will build out proof, we will see what works.

yes?

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 1:36pm

It is coming up on 8PM in the UK.
Time to sign off

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 1:55pm

fechter wrote:
Jun 07 2019 12:59pm
WTF are you trying to design?
I missed this
caught it in review
sorry fechter

I am designing an "EV Interlock Unocker"

This is a black box
It has a CCS1 socket, same as a car
If you plug into a Level 3+ station this black box will unlock the interlocks

You can then access the available power
This power is apx 200W to 200KW
We will need to be careful

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 2:02pm

fechter wrote:
Jun 07 2019 12:59pm
WTF are you trying to design?

I had to look up IEEE1901:
The 1901 standards include two different physical layers, one based on FFT orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing (OFDM) modulation and another based on wavelet OFDM modulation. Each PHY is optional, and implementers of the specification may, but are not required to, include both. The FFT PHY is derived from HomePlug AV technology and is deployed in HomePlug-based products. The Wavelet PHY is derived from HD-PLC technology and is deployed in HD-PLC-based products.[13]

The fast Fourier transform (FFT) PHY includes a forward error correction (FEC) scheme based on convolutional turbo code (CTC). The second option "Wavelet PHY" includes a mandatory FEC based on concatenated Reed-Solomon (RS) and Convolutional code, and an option to use Low-Density Parity-Check (LDPC) code.[14]

On top of these two physical layers, two different Media Access Control (MAC) layers were defined; one for In-home networking and the other for Internet access.[15] Two MACs were needed because each application has different requirements.

To manage coexistence between PHYs and MACs the Inter-System Protocol (ISP) was developed. ISP enables various BPL devices and systems to share communication resources (frequency/time) when installed in a network with common electrical wiring. ISP allows 1901-compliant devices and ITU-T G.hn- compliant devices to co-exist. The protocol provides configurable frequency division for Access and time division for in-home with a granularity compatible with the Quality of Service (QoS) requirements of the most demanding audio and video applications.
Looks easy enough. A way to send high speed data over power lines. Not sure how far it can go with that setup. Usually not past the first transformer.
I completely agree... it totally looks easy enough :-)
... and thank you for playing along :x

This is the chipset used for Level 3 DC Fast Charging
The follow-on to J1772 AC charging

My understanding, from researching companies like NH Research, is that these are primarily transformer-less designs. This is so that they can achieve bi-directionality. ... but ...

In this particular case
The J1772 line "Pilot" in reference to the Earth Ground line is being modulated by this chip set.

So we are using comms over power technology
But... not on the actual power lines

The phat #00 DC(+) an DC(-) cables are just noise generators and current carriers. On one side is a horrific Ebike controller. On the other end is US (the vehicle)

So.. with the old TV on top of the new TV approach...
We are super-super-super complicating the communications
...

Of course CHAdeMO solves this by passing along CAN HI, CAN LO, and GND
Dead simple
$1.20 CAN chip or CAN shield and you are up and running

CHAdeMO requires a couple of interlock lines, but they are all super simple opto couplers or contactor drivers.
All stuff you could (and I have) put on a PI Shield.

... glad you asked :thumb:

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 2:51pm

Ok... BBQ Chicken and Rice for lunch.
"Hot #SAUCIN" - Saucin' it up in your kitchen

Personally That is the BBQ sauce on the market that sucks the least.

NOW
I cant let this go until I have a PN and Lead Time on a chip set

I will commit to buy as many as 200 but ... I at least need a proof of concept working.

The old me would spend days or weeks
Researching other forums
Figuring out which car ECU's can be hacked...

As...
All these EV cars have this chipset in them - YES?
(Obviously - else they would not be able to charge at Level 3 station and I have watched all of them charge)

K
Find the distributor for the baseline chipset

https://www.arrow.com/en/manufacturers/qualcomm

Search middle top of screen for AUTOMOTIVE
Down-select by supplier, CTRL-Click two pcs Qualcomm
307 Products

Sort by price $0.40 to $2.50
Must equal FAIL
Off by an order of magnitude I suspect

Moving on...

https://www.qualcomm.com/contact/distributors
Rad - bunch of garbage
https://www.qualcomm.com/products/platforms/automotive

... Now I open up a copy of this thread in another tap
I scroll up
I find a key word - do not even care what it means

"HPGP"
Search that in the last link posted
ThisIsWhatYouSeekMaybe.png
ThisIsWhatYouSeekMaybe.png (62.79 KiB) Viewed 83 times
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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:12pm

7 year old Press release
&
Pointer to a ChipSet

K
Sweet

Lets get our Orthogonal Fast Fourier transforms on eh?
... I have been getting a little bitchy lately...
Mostly because I can ACTUALLY SOLVE AN FFT... and have implemented FFT myself in hardware. . .
And I keep getting corrected on abstract minutia by people who dont even know what they are saying. . . or what they are doing or why...

:cry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthogona ... ltiplexing

All this stuff just means DSP
Digital Signal Processing

It is no different than TDMA or any of the previous methods to pack a lot of information in a way that can be moved fast and unpacked reliably. Maybe with some security too - eh?

You have buckets
Your transpose things in and out of the frequency and time domains
You fill up buckets in such as way as you can beat them with a baseball bat, shoot them into outerspace, then unpack them.

This is the same principle used for cleaning up Audio....
and (more interestingly) for creating False Audio

(You know or do not know that Audio is no longer admissible in court. Even a hack lawyer can find 42 cases where audio has been spoofed to such a degree as to be undetectable. I roll with guys who do it all the time. They even have a class that teaches you how to do it in the Stanford Music Department... using Matlab... so... it is not like it is some sort of CIA shit - anyway)

... Octopart says YOU FAIL
https://octopart.com/qca6410-al3c-qualc ... glga7ivZ9w

(my screen, on 6/7/2019, says not available)
Cool
We will find it someplace else

Like... China?

... Because if I go over to Linear Technology
https://www.analog.com/en/landing-pages ... index.html

and I search for any prefix on any chip they advertise
.... I am taken to an "Adult Page"
ActualEngineeringWebsite.png
Oh wait...
What is there?

A data sheet
A functional diagram
Some graphs on performance
An evaluation kit
Links to more information...

:bigthumb:

That is an ACTUAL ENGINEERING WEBSITE where you can buy bits and pieces to ACTUALLY BUILD STUFF
LOL

Right?
What I am trying to do over here... sigh...

Lets see if I can figure out how to buy something (not the Eval board - that is too easy)

... OMFG Reliability data?
... Design notes and suggested circuits?

Production Status?
Compatibility Matrix?

WAIT A SECOND!!!
This is an actual Tek company!
Run by actual Engineers!!!
(I should have just taken the job in 2001)

$10
I can have it RIGHT NOW
https://www.analog.com/en/products/ltc6 ... -samplebuy

...

OK


... ... So we have set a baseline
I call it the lower bar
In actuality it is the top bar

Linear Technology is one of the finest companies on the planet
If you wish to be a fine company... Just go bask in how AWESOME they are

It is not because they have 300 sales guys (they do)
It is not because they market like mad (they do)
It is because they value ENGINEERS and have lots of them

Eh hem
Some times in the course of work we want to have a few ELECTRICAL ENGINEERS around

... So ...
Check out that website

I am going to go eat the last of my chicken and rice
I will be scratching my head as to WHY THE FRUCK I still cant find a single thing I need to find to get my damn EV car to charge on the public charge network

>.. Makes you wonder
... Who got greedy?

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:20pm

Ok
Stay cool methods
Dont get mad because you are broke again :lol:

Use the force methods. . . :thumb: :bigthumb:
DropBeat.png
I rolled back the part number
I did a google image search
hmmmm....?!?

AH HA!

So it is just like we have to do at Home Depot!!!
When I am looking for a very specific bit of hardware to fraction foam . . . I do not seek the "Foam Fractioning Department"... I have to use my noggin... Think about what other departments hold things that look like what I seek

Right?

Like... I may be over in the plumbing department looking for structural members?

Right?

So...
That means it pays to have a full catalog of what is at Home Depot in your brain right?

(YEP)

And... same goes for McMaster Carr right?
If you are a supurbe McMasterbater... You at least KNOW OF what solutions are available

Right?

Now...
We are getting down to Engineering in the year 2020

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Posts: 4470
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Location: Santa Cruz CA
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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:25pm

DOOOOOOOOD.....

Did we find it?

http://www.drop-beats.com/en/index.php/products/plc2021
.
.
.
DropBeat.png
Jack Frucking Pot
That will be $420/hr Troubleshooting Rate
1hr
Reference: "Un-Screwing the Automotive Comms Industry"

... Unbelievable that folks have let them run loose like this for so long. . . I would have beat them with the Tesla Charge Handle until they were unconscious... had my Ex-Wife not gone after my PayCheck while I was at Tesla. She started taking $5,800 out of my checks and giving it to the most rotten bunch of evil laywers you have ever seen.

Tried to kidnap our kid. Think I am joking around now? See my face getting red? When you see my face get red take two steps back. That means danger. Few have seen my face get red.

...

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

User avatar
methods   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4470
Joined: Aug 08 2008 12:08pm
Location: Santa Cruz CA
Contact:

Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:27pm

Datasheet for the module...
http://www.drop-beats.com/en/images/pdf/DB2021ECB.pdf

Which no doubt wont be in production anymore... we will see :o

The year is 2019
My son and I have been under fierce attack for over 5 years

I have exactly 1 meter tall pile of attacks from 3 different lawyers
I tried to settle every time
She took everything

Tried to take my life

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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