The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 04 2019 12:55am

Got interrupted for the above post....but some crappy news:

Short story long, the "blue" phase is shorted to the stator/axle, somewhere other than the phase wire itself (in the windings?).


Added some thin (unshrunk) heatshrink slipped over the teflon wire that will pass thru the axle bearing area, and the standoff tube (that spaces the motor face away from the dropout), so any rubbing will happen on the HS not the actaul wire insulation.

Tied down the wires to the (insulated with electrical tape layers) stator supports.

Then before installing any covers, I thought I should get the isolation tester out, and verify no shorts.

But it did have a short, even at the lowest isolation voltage range. :(

To simplify finding it, I undid the WYE point (kinda a PITA), so I could test each phase separately.

This showed the "green" and "yellow" phases (arbitrary colors as I'd installed the phase wires) were fine, 5.5gigohm to each other, the stator/axle, and the blue phase.

But the blue phase showed essentially a dead short to the stator/axle (and made quite a noise inside the tester, so I shut it off immediately).

A regular ohmmeter measurhed around 15kohm (where it said out of range, "infinite", for the other phases).

I undid the tiedowns for the blue phase, with the DMM still connected, and as I moved the wire away, the resistance when up to out of range.

Disconnected DMM and reconnected ioslation tester, and retested with the same 5.5gigohm result the ohter phases had.

SO the problem appeared to be somewhere between the WWCP and the end of the phase wire itself, where it passes along the axle/stator supports. However...that's triple insulated (at least) along it's whole length, and wasn't tied down mroe than loosely.

So i added another insulation alyer along the whole length of the path along the axle/stator supports, and loosely secured the wire...and a retest showed the same short back. :?

So it means the short would have to be at the point the windings themselves exit the last stator tooth, where the bend has to happen out of it, and it only shorts when it's bent over that point. I'll have to examine it closely, or just try to put something thin under it right there, and see if it fixes it.

AFAICT the entire area thru each stator tooth is lined with (probably) nomex, which sticks out well away from the surface of the stator laminations, and should not allow any shorts. So it sohdn't be possbile to have the issue I appear to be seeing.

But If not, I don't know where else it could be shorted.


IN theory it shouldn't affect the operation of the motor by a controller, for a regular sensored trapezoidal type, as long as nothing else shorts to the trike frame, or is grounded to it, etc.

But for something like the SFOC5, it might affect teh waveform sufficiently to cause indesirable operation in various ways (though I don't know what htose might be, offhand).


I hope I can either fix this issue, or that it will not affect the controller operation, as I really need to be able to use this motor wheel.


If I can't, I'll have to see about using the old Crystalyte X5304 instead...which means unlacing the rim / psokes off the MXUS 4503 and relacing to the X5304. Assuming, fo course, that the axle fix I did on that old motor works out ok (it's never been tested, due to the winding dmage I did to it during the axle repair...which hopefully doesn't cause a problem, either).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 04 2019 7:08pm

Incememed agrees it would be a problem if I used the motor with a stator/phase short.

Copied below from my reply to him in the SFOC5 thread:

I did, however, find and fix that particular problem, at least for now. Using a really stiff brush with long bristles, I "dusted" under and around all the areas windings go down thru the stator slots, where I found a fair bit of metallic dust, probably from all my axle fixing work (despite what I thought extreme multilayer precautions to keep it from getting in the motor at all).

Then I used a plastic handle to gently touch various spots while running the isolation tester at 100v range, and located an area (directly under the original position for the WYE point connection) that when prodded would change the readings. I slid bits of zipties (all I had that would fit in there, that had rounded edges/etc) under the windings, between teh stator slots, to try to push the windings up away from the stator.
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Eventually I reached the point that must've caused the problem, because the readings went to the max for the range (>110Megohm). I switched ranges to 250v, and got hte max for that (>5.5Gigohm), even when tapping the area. I kept retesting as i tied things down, step by step, and got no fluctuations in reading.
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So I think I have fixed this particular problem sufficiently to use the controller. I hope.


FWIW, I didn't put the WYE point back where it was, because of the faults above; I just tied it down to one of the stator supports instead, and triple insulated the area under it on the stator support lip.
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HOwever, I'm having significant troulbes getting anything other than itty bitty 14g or smaller phase wires thru the axle/bearing spaces, without damaging their insulation one way or another, and causing a phase/axle short.

I guess I'll have to use at least a few inches of really thin phase wires, for that section, and just have thicker stuff once outside the motor. :/


So at the moment this is kinda where I'm at (am inside eating and resting a bit while I decide what to do).
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 05 2019 2:14am

I finally got some (18g) wire thru, teflon insulation, with a second layer of heatshrink insulation over them, and also got a pair of 28g wires out for the thermal sensor, and verified each step of the way with the isolation tester on 250v that it's all ok, including with it fitted into the dropouts, fully tightened down, wires tied down, etc.

Then I tested on the crappy generic 12FET and it works, offground. It sounds normal, feels normal, and no visible or audible rocking of the axle between braking and acceleration. Didn't try onground because I didn't want to roll the trike over and get it out of the shed yet; was too tired to be sure I *could* do it.

Then I hooked up the SFOC5, which is still programmed for the 4504's guesstimate parameters, to the repaired 4503. It does the usual continuous jitter dance, and a tiny bit of throttle begins spinning it up; if held goes faster and faster but begins being unhappy; not unexpected since it has the wrong settings for this winding of the motor.

But at least it "works". Have to take the laptop out there tomororrow and reprogram the SFOC5 to the right parameters for the 4503, and test offground, then onground.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 06 2019 12:21am

Details over in the SFOC5 thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1449710

It's working now, and much better than before I broke the axle, and later blew up the controller. Wish I had had time and energy (at the same time) to get this all done months ago!

Using the Cycle Analyst PAS torque sensor to control throttle actually let me startup smoothly and powerfully and easily, if a bit slowly (but I only have phase amps set to 150 right now, and some of the CA PAS tuning is set to lower values as well). This is starting up in my "middle" gear (the highest IGH gear and the lowest crank gear, which gets me about 5MPH or so, on pedals alone), which is difficult but still possible for me to startup with unpowered, at least on the flats with no cargo or load or trailer.

If I had to, I could shift to the lowest gear, which is about 1MPH or so, to get started with a load. We'll see how that works if I can setup a load on the trailer as a test, that I can't startup from in the higher gears.


I was enjoying this new ability so much that I did not remember to test throttle-only operation once I set it this way. :lol: :oops: It was like I had bionic legs; almost the way I would really like it to be (the rest of it is tuning the CA to match the abilities of SFOC5 and then I think I might have it!).


I did some turns and maneuvers that would stress the repaired axle and the inboard clamp and outboard Ubolt restraint in sideloading, with no apparent change in position/etc. (I had painted around the axles and such, so if anything moves it should be obvious). I didn't end up doing the "wrench bracket" in addition to the clamp and dropout/ubolt, but I might at some point go ahead and add that, as a "just in case" feature.


However, on the left side's outboard dropout, the shims didn't really fix the shifting between braking and acceleration. I'll have to take it off, and resurface the dropouts by welding across the faces and then filing back down for as perfect a fit as I can get. I may also do this to the axle itself if it looks like it needs it, but if I do I'll have to take the cover off as that's the wire exit side. :/ It's more likely that I'll simply add the "wrench bracket" support like I had done on the right side for the HSR3548 used while fixing the 4503.


For now, the temperature sensor in the 4503 is hooked up to the CA's port for that, and I've temporarily setup the CA main screen to dispaly the temperature instead of the alternating Ah/miles I usualy use there. So far, in my basic testing, the peak temperature I actually saw was only around 50C, and went down to around 45C in minutes after stopping, but the CA temperature page shows an actual peak of about 60C. Since the sensor is directly under a winding, that's probably to be expected.

At some point, I'll hook it up to the SFOC5 to let it do it's own thermal limiting, etc as needed.

There's plenty more testing to be done, but it's looking good so far. :)



At this point I only have two days left for this week of time-off-work, so it's unlikley I'll get any of the other major stuff done I'd hoped for, such as:
--changing out for the fatbike fork to use the Stromer rear 26" motor wheel with an external controller
--rerouting the pedal chain from the rear left wheel to the front wheel, kinda like the CycleTrucks UPS is using.
--after chain doesn't go thru it anymore, redoing the inside of the underseat cargo box to be one continuous cargo area, except for that used for the batteries. (presently it is split in half by the chain passing thru it).
--insulating the cargo hold / dog carrier area against the coming heat
--making the rear cover on the inside of the gate/door more easily removable/installable
--building the insulated walls and roof for the cargo trailer to turn it into a doggie carrier for summertime, and working out the battery-powered inverter A/C unit to keep them cool.

and a zillion other things I've posted about wanting to do....

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 06 2019 3:13pm

Sigh. More work to do on the motor today, redoing the phase wires (thankfully not on the inside of the motor).

I was doing some runs up and down the streets by my house, with Kirin having a great time riding in the back, head hanging out beside me, when I stopped for a moment to switch screens on the CA to watch current rather than speed and temperature, then started trying to pedal off to another test run, but it was jerky and very hard to move; I stopped pedalling and tried to mvoe the trike using the left motor system instead, but it wouldn't even roll.

Then I smelled something like a hot motor...except the sensor measuring winding temperature was only 43C. Got off the trike and looked underneath, and actually saw smoke from the phase wires on the 4503 (the SFOC-controled motor), so I immediately switched off the battery cutoff. Kirin was realy antsy at this point so I got her out of the trike and back into the yard, then I disconnected the phase wires from the SFOC. Didn't change the shorted condition, which felt like all three phases. Followed back to the biggest melted spot in the external jacket I could find, and cut the wires there, but it didn't stop the short at all. So I went back as close to the axle as I could still leaving a few inches to splice new wires to wthout having to open the motor up again, and THAT finally opened up the short, allowing me to roll the trike into the yard.


Rolled the trike over on it's side to get to it all, and took off the melted wiring, and took the jacket off of it to get these pics
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(rest at the end of the post). Was stuck to it pretty good most places. For the last several inches to the splice point of the thicker (14g?) wire, there was no jacket, just electrical tape, and apparently that was thin enough to not be a big barrier to heat, so it didn't melt the tape or the actual wire insulation on that section...plus it was closer to the thicker wire that acted as a better heatsink, most likely.

Pulling on the individual phase wires inside the jacket that goes into the axle, they each easily move back and forth / in and out, so none of those are melted to each other, and probably don't have damaged insulation. Will retest with the isolation tester.


I hooked up the SFOC5 to the leftside MXUS 4504, and powered on the system and did an offground test at barely-on throttle, and it spun up fine. Didnt want to push it since the settigns are wrong for that motor, but it means the SFOC is probably undamaged. Have to retest it once I get the thicker phase wires on the 4503 past the stuff that fits in the axle.

Any other controller I've had would probably have just blown up with the phase short...so for me, this is pretty impressive. :)
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 07 2019 1:08am

I fixed the wiring issue, using about a foot and a half (need to measure it) of 8G wire I had that already had PP75-sized contacts on them; the negative wires off of three sets of battery connectors for some powerchair or other. (the positive wires have bolt-in fuses in the middle of the wire that make them too short to use).
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I staggered the connections, as usual, so that even if the double-heatshrink insulation over the joint fails they can't touch. So there's about two inches of the blue phase, out the axle, three of the yellow, and four of the green, with the old 18g wire.
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There is a single layer of heatshrink over each of those wires, in case they get warm enough to soften the teflon. I can't do that all the way thru the axle (not enough space), so hopefully the wires inside the axle itself don't get hot enough to fail the insulation. :/ I *could* do it if I took off the jacket from the wires, I might get one layer of heatshrink over each wire, but that would be thinner than the jacket is around all three. Two layers would be better...but it's not very tough heatshrink, and while it might be enough to keep the wires from shorting to each other, it might not be to keep one from shorting to the axle.

I moved the SFOC5 over to the right side from the left so it's short phase wires can easily reach the new ones above. Before:
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After:


Tested ok offground, except that it kept getting "overcurrent" error if I pushed the throttle up too quickly. This doesn't happen when the wheel is loaded, on ground.

Also, occasionally, a tiny amount of throttle spins the wheel slowly *backward* instead of forward...only offground. Can't find a pattern to when it happens.

Onground, it operates smoothly as before, as long as I'm on level ground. If I'm going up the driveway, and I'm stopped at the bottom of it, then it chugs trying to start going up the shallow slope, unless I use the other motor to help push it, but unless it's going a couple MPH or more it wont' run smoothly on it's own up that slope.


I tried adding the probable wire resistance to the phase resistance in the SFOC5's settings but it caused a problem where the motor would not run correctly at anything below several MPH. It would "catch" repeatedly as if it were ratcheting backward, trying to pull the trike against the direction I was going, on level ground. Didn't test this at hgiher speeds.

Switching back to the "known good" resistance let it work smoothly again.


Measured the throttle voltages minimum and maximum, and reset the SFOC to match these, but left a bit of headroom at the lower end, to ensure the throttle won't be able to engage the motor when "zeroed". Did this because when the throttle is connected to the SFOC5, it's output is higher than when it is not, which must have to do with the design of the SFOC5's input (which might do better with a redesign); but the difference is variable, and I don't understand why. So sometiems it is "right" and sometimes it is a tad high. Simpler just to set the SFOC not to respond to aything below the highest "zero" voltage. I also set the max input just a bit below the max output measured fromthe throttle, since that varies a bit too (but not as much as the "zero" does). I'd like to figure out what's causing this, but I'm not really sure where to start.

I've been considering building a little op-amp circuit to replace the diode isolation of the CA throttle output and the hardware thorttle; this could also isolate the SFOC5's throtlte input from the rest of the system. Won't happen this week....


After riding gently around the block, the motor was only 36C, cooler than when I was doing hard acceleration tests. I checked the controller and it was warm, not hot. The new phase wires not noticeably different from ambient (around 76F at the time). But the short segment of 18g at the axle was very warm; not hot but warmer than I would like, and I can't tell what the in-axle wire temperature is. I think I should take another temperature sensor and see if I can stuff it into the axle between the wires, and monitor that.

I turned the phase current down to 100A from 150A, to help with keeping it cooler, cuz it won't be any fun if the wires melt again and lock up the wheel, while I'm in traffic!


Anyway, unless the phase wires melt, it'll be fine, and it is all working.

Tomorrow I'll try riding around normally for a while, aroudn the general neighborhood, so it'll be easier to limp home if I blow something up. If it's all still ok after that, I will try out a run to the store, which takes most of the same route my work commute does.
Last edited by amberwolf on Mar 07 2019 2:15am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 07 2019 2:13am

Some pics of the wheel, mounting, etc, and the trailer hitchball, as it is now, along with some of the project management crew.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 07 2019 1:34pm

I found a 10k NTC multimeter probe in my test equipment leads bin, though none of my meters directly read it as temperature, it's easy enough to translate the resistance to temperature, since all I really need is to see the peak and average temps inside the phase wire cable to the axle.

The probe is too long (over 3") to be able to put it in the axle, but it inserts partway into the cable sheath so it's in contact with the 18g section of phase wires themselves; it's as good as I'll get for a quick and easy test.
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Didn't have long enough leads to put it on the bars, and didn't want to take the time to make extensions for this test, so I just tied it down to the edge of the seat, and glanced at it as often as I could. Riding on low-traffic and back streets made that possible.
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I tried to use only the SFOC5 and 4503 wherever possible, via PAS only (which is presently setup to be basically on/off, max throttle output, with just a speed limit so I can just keep pedalling normally and just steer, and not worry about what speed I'm at or anything else, until I can work out the right PAS settings to actually get torque control of the system, but still get max startup power as quickly as possible. (not sure that's actually possible to do). There were several times I had to use the left motor system in tandem with the SFOC system to accelerate quickly enough to not be in the way of other traffic, so the peak amps on the ride are from that, rather than just the SFOC system.

On a ~3 mile ride, the average reading is around 6kohm, with an ambient air temperature of about 70F and ride speed of 20MPH.

Mostly it dips down as low as about 4.5kohm (around 45C, 113F), going back above 5 in a second or two, steadying to average again in a few seconds. Sometimes under repeated start/stop conditions it stays down in the 5k range, and dips as low as 3.5k (around 50C, 122F).

Since the probe is a thick stainless steel rod, it takes time for it to react to the temperature, and itself affects the readings with it's own thermal mass, I'd assume the temperatures are actually peaking a few degrees higher.

But it doesn't look like they're getting to dangerous levels, at the 100A phase setting at least.

I did not push it as hard as I might, but it's about like a normal commute would see, and for about a half mile more.

wh/mile is a little lower than usual, but I didn't do dual-system full-power startups everytime like I would usually have to on a commute.

Ride stats:
57.7vstart
56.3vrest
51.7vmin
0.042ohm rbatt

3.088Ah
171.9wh
58.5wh/mile

5.8hwh
42avghw
46.1avg hrpm

0.2%regen
0.0102Ah regen

-4.5Amin
89.9Amax

21.4mph max
15.1mph avg
11m30s triptime
2.939miles

18.1C start
41.8C resting
52.3C peak
38.3C avg


So basically, temperatures inside the phase wire bundle sheath did not exceed about 50C, around 122F, in ambient temps of around 70F. That doesn't measure inside the axle itself, so it could be hotter in there where there's no airflow past them, and the steel doesn't conduct heat away quickly, plus the thick sheath / jacket is insulating too.

I don't really want to, but I should probably take the wheel off the trike, open up the cover, and examine the wires inside the sheath.

It also occured to me that if I were to completely remove the sheath / jacket, I might be able to fit a second 18g wire for each of the phase wires in there, wtih at least one layer of heatshrink over the teflon. I'm not sure it'd fit.


I *might* be able to dremel shallow "dimple channels" in the ID of the inner bearing race, and in the axle flat face, to give just another mm or two clearance.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 09 2019 12:32am

Details over in the SFOC thread,
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1450460
but basically the phase wires melted while just sitting there overnight, charging, in the shed, and shorted together preventing me from being able to turn the motor or ride to work.

I cut the phase wires just outside the axle/dropout, and this removed the shrot, so there's no internal short (though there is damage from heating).

I'l have to do testign (after replacing the wires agian) to fidn the root cause of the wire melting.

I'll be rding on just the leftside motor systme for at least a few days, until I can work otu exactly how I can put bigger phase wires thru the small space I have, or how to make a bigger space without compromising the axle strength more than it already is. (with the Crystalyte HSR3548 unusable, or rather, unsafe to use, I haven't got anything else built into a wheel that I can put on there for now, and wont' have time to unlace that and relace it onto something else for a few days, etiher. (even if I just do a bit at a time instead of all at once, it'll still take till then).

PIcs below of the damage.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 10 2019 1:39am

I'm going to do what I can to reinsulate the damaged winding areas more permanently, with one or another type of insulating varnish, and redo the phase wires with the magnet wire, doulbe insulated with kapton tape (most likely).

I started a thread here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=99084
to find out what the best option(s) might be for this; there's links to various products (not all of which I can afford) I found here on ES and in searches elsewhere, for those that have done this sort of thing to compare and hpefully let me know which one(s) would be best to use.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 13 2019 6:19pm

It took a while to locate the old welder; I'd forgotten I'd already taken the casing off so I was looking for the wrong thing. :oops:

I pulled out the transformer, cut the laminations off so I could unwind it without damaging the wire.
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It has 10g magnet wire on one side, and 14g on the other side.
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Either one is significantly better than the 18g I had used. ;)


Have to see what I can do with the dremel to make channels in the bearing ID, and possibly expanding the channels I started in the axle flats, to see if I can get 3x 10g wires in there, wrapped in kapton tape (which might be here later today), with kapton also on the bearing and axle channels.

If I can't fit the 10g, I'll see if 2x 14g for each phase will fit, but I'd rather use the 10g. It's slightly more conductor, and it's simpler to deal with a single wire.



"CoronaDope" should be here tonight or tomorrow morning, and then I can try coating the windings with that, in the areas where I had to push them up away from the stator to remove the isolation fault.

(I also have the red insulating stuff on the way, if the CoronaDope doesn't do it, and the red stuff can still flow down in there).

I also have some fabric/teflon tape on the way, too, which may be able to be inserted under the windings, between them and the stator edges the problem is probably involved with. (and this tape can also be used as another insulation layer between phase wires and axle, bearing, etc).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 13 2019 11:48pm

CoronaDope and Kapton tape arrived.

I got the "grooves" in the axle and bearing race IDs done large enough to more than accomodate the 10g wire, and should also accomodate at least a layer of Kapton tape, plus a thin layer of CoronaDope over the axle and the bearing grooves (which I put on there tonight).

I will be running one wire on each side of the outboard axle, and the third wire on one side of the inboard axle. The other side of the inboard axle is unmodified at present. Depending on what will fit with the phase wires on the outboard axle flats, I should be able to put the thermal sensor wires at least, and possibly the halls, if I use really thin wire. Optionally, I could groove the unmodified axle, to fit the sensor wires there, but I'd rather not.

I also soaked CoronaDope down into the windings around the area with teh zipties under them in the pics somehwere above. It wicks in pretty easily, so I kept brushing it on until it began to run down the opposite side, and hten flipped the stator over so it'll build up in the affected area, and then added more from that opposite side. That will dry overnight out in the shed.

I hope I can also fit some Teflon tape in there as well, but if not, the other two should be sufficient. I just prefer overkill when it comes to precautions against things that destroy stuff or get me suddenly stuck in traffic (like a phase wire short that stops a wheel from moving).

I saved the insulation cloth tubes from the welder transformer, and will use those on the phase wires' sections that are inside the motor, where they are secured to the stator supports.

The stator supports themselves, along with any areas that might contact the wires, and those grooves in axle, are all coated with CoronaDope. The supports will also be covered with the Teflon tape once it arrives, as an additonal insulation layer between phase wires and metal stator supports.

I unwound a few feet of the 10g magnet wire off the transformer. The first layer didn't come off cleanly; the varnish they' used over the top of the windings stuck that layer together and pulled some of the wire coating off in dots here and there. Something that can be fixed with the CoronaDope, but before trying that I just unwound the next layer, and that came off cleanly. So I cut 3 about 18" pieces that I'll start off with.

Pics tomorrow in the sunlight; I couldn't get the grooves to show up well due to lighting problems.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 15 2019 1:11am

Groove pics, etc. , including some wiht the kapton tape over them,
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 15 2019 1:26am

THen I added very thin (28g? was out of an old serial cable) wires for the halls (R G Bl Y Bk) and the thermal sensor (O Bn).
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This is the kapton tape and CoronaDope
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The Teflon tape (and the red varnish) arrived this evening, so I was able to continue with the rest fo the repair.
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THen I prepped and added in the 10g solid magnet wire (which I also precoated with CoronaDope, in case there are any scratches in the existing insulation), after making sure all the areas that might be touched by them were covered in Kapton.
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Teflon strips on the bearing grooves, to prevent rubbing on the wires (which I also put kapton over)
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 15 2019 1:46am

Eventually I got the wires all installed and tied down, insulated, and tested each step of the way with the isolation tester at 250v, and when it was all closed up I tested it at 500v ok, still 5.5gigohms, from axle to phases.
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Bolted it to the trike and tested it again, from frame to phases, at 250v, still ok.
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Hooked it up to the SFOC5 and tested it fine offground, and then rode around the block, and shut it off for the night. Was cold out there (around 45F), couldn't feel any heat at all on the phase wires all the way up to the axle with the backs of my fingers after the ride. I expect when it's warmer out, there will be some heat, so I'll put the BBQ temperature probe on those phase wires when i get the chance.


Will see how well it really works on my commute tomorrow.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 15 2019 3:16am

Project Management didn't really think much of the whole thing though.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 29 2019 1:48am

I did something to my back in the last week or so, down about the SI joint area, that has kept me from doing much in the last several days, so I did not get the motor rewiring done (it requires me to roll the trike on it's side, then unbolt teh motor, roll it to wherever I'd work on it, then lift it up to the table, get the covers off, do all the wiring, then reverse all those steps.


Mostly OT, except that there's always the chance I'll need a "spare ride" for work commute in the emergency situation of the trike and any other rides (none at present) not working. I did go to a couple of goodwills to try to find a few bits and pieces (there's always *something* I need for a project), and ran across a $25 complete working Trek 1000 Alpha road bike, whose only problem I could find was a bad (torn up) rear tire and tube, and some issue (probably adjustment) with the left (front) shifter.

But unlike anything else I already have (other than a little bmx) the frame is the right height for me to be able to step over it, without practically laying it down. I'd have to put the seat down to just above the toptube, but I could actually ride this one even with my knees/etc the way they are. (I can't hardly get on the Nishiki/etc anymore; too tall). It probably woudln't be easy to pedal, but I have an old Kepler friction drive that wouldn't fit the Nishiki frame without major mods to teh drive / clamp, that would only take a couple of small plates to change the angle and "lenght" of the seatpost clamp to fit with teh seat that close to the frame.

Random internet pic of one that looks like it, till I can get pics of mine:
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AFAICT it's a 2003:
https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/SearchL ... odel=65313
Sizes: 43cm, 50cm, 52cm, 54cm, 56cm, 58cm, 60cm, 63cm
Colors: Candy Red/Red Pearl, Starry Night Black

Wheels and Tires
Hubs: Aluminum, Q/R
Rims: Alex AT-450, 32-hole
Tires: 700 x 25c Bontrager Select
Spoke Brand: Stainless steel, 15ga. (1.8mm) straight gauge
Spoke Nipples: Brass nipples

Components
Brakeset: Aluminum Dual Pivot brakes, Shimano Sora STI Dual Control levers
Shift Levers: Shimano Sora STI Dual Control
Crankset: SR Superbe, 30/42/52 teeth
Pedals: Aluminum cage w/clips & straps
BB Shell Width: 68mm English
Rear Cogs: 8-speed, 11 - 28 teeth
Seatpost: Aluminum micro-adjust
Saddle: Trek CRZ+
Handlebar: Aluminum
Handlebar Stem: Aluminum
Headset: 1 1/8inch threadless Aheadset
AFAICT everything was still original except the brake pads (which are still soft and pliable, not all rock hard or rotted), and possibly the cable housings (which are all Jagwire), and the tires (which I forget what they are) and tubes (which are slime brand). Oh, and the pedals are plastic Trek brand for regular shoes, but from what I can tell it should've come with the type for clip-in shoes.

One interesting part I've never run into before is the Sora shifter/brake levers, where you move them *sideways* to shift gears up, and pull them normaly to brake (with a thumb tab to shift back down). Unfortunatley they seem to be designed such that they can't be used with "flat" handlebars,

I can't lean forward to ride, so have to change the stem, and probably the handlebars (and definitely the saddle; I can't do the sknny saddles anymore). I mgiht be able to flip the bars over so the lower horns stick up instead,and flip the brake lever/shifters over. If not, I'll have to swap the Sora shifter/brakes for separate shifter/brakes. (or maybe the integrated ones off the old fusin test bike)

I'll probably make a "build" thread for this bike, once I dig out the Kepler drive and whatever else I'll need for it.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by wturber » Mar 30 2019 11:13pm

Are you familiar with riding on the hoods with a road bike? If not look that up. If you can do that successfully, no need to switch to the straight handlebar.
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53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 31 2019 12:45am

Since I can't ride leaning forward anymore (between my hands going numb much faster that way, and my back hurting more severely), the only way I can see using the road / drop bars is to flip them upside down, or / and change to a stem that puts them up higher.

I fixed the rear tire & tube temporarily with one I had from a bike with a cracked frame; it's too fat to fit in teh frame correctly, but clamping the QR axle a bit low in the dropouts lets it roll with minor rubbing, enough for test riding. (is also a schrader isntead of presta, so had to drill otu the valve hole a bit)

I definitely couldn't use it with the road bars as they are, regardless of what hand position I use.

I temporarily swapped out for some bars with a little rise, and a stem with a little rise, and it is much more comfortable, but I would probably need an taller stem to really make it work for an actual ride, even a short one like a work commute.

I have not yet tried the road bars upside down with the taller / angled stem yet, but that's next. I suspect it will work well enough that way, as long as I keep the seat basically almost on top of the toptube / end of seattube. If I move the seat up more for better pedalling, I'd need to move the bars up at least taht far, too.


I might just ahve to make myself a tall adjustable stem, out of a steel (so I can weld it) threadless stem and one of the couple of adjustable threaded-type stems I have laying around.

It'll likely take some experimenting to get this all figured out. I don't really need yet another project, but I need to ensure that I have a backup bike that is comfortable and easy enough to ride even without power to get to work if I have to (even if I have to stop and rest a few times on the way).
The other bikes I've got don't qualify (anymore; I just can't mount / ride them like I used to be able to), but this one should, and with the Kepler drive it ought to have enough power to let me do it in one shot; doesn't need much of a battery for 5-6 miles of range (though I would probably have a separate small battery for the lighting, since I'll want to put LED strip lighting all over the frame for downlighting and turn signals / markers / tail / brake lights, plus something small but effective for a headlight.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by wturber » Mar 31 2019 1:32pm

I think I have an unused, but old 700 x 25c kevlar bead tire hangin' around that I can bring by. Let me know if you need it.
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53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Mar 31 2019 9:20pm

According to the tires it came with, it takes "700 x 23c" (it's really really skinny; I think my thumb might be bigger around :lol: ). If 23 is 23mm, then I think 25 would work too.

The one that is too fat is a "700 x 35c" and is almost twice as tall / wide.

If you need any bike parts in trade, lemme know what and I'll see if I have it.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by wturber » Apr 03 2019 2:37am

amberwolf wrote:
Mar 31 2019 9:20pm
According to the tires it came with, it takes "700 x 23c" (it's really really skinny; I think my thumb might be bigger around :lol: ). If 23 is 23mm, then I think 25 would work too.
Yeah. 700 x 25c is pretty common and is what I run on my Trek 1400. Sorry I forgot to bring the tire Monday. I'll try for next Monday. Not sure if I need any bike parts right now. But I'll let you know if something comes to mind.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Apr 17 2019 1:14am

This is what the trike looks like after hitting a car:
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I was riding home from work, and it was a bit windy, with some strong gusts now and then. That's not normally an issue; the trike is quite heavy and pretty easily resists most winds, although I can feel the buffeting.

This time...I was making a right turn to exit Metrocenter, at something between 10-15MPH --whcih is also not normally an issue; as long as I can clearly see the entire area around and past an intersection, like here, I don't have to go any slower than that around most turns, which is important because cars often are literally right behind me and often don't want to slow down, whether they are going straight thru or turning as well; sometimes my turning ability is what keeps me from getting hit by such cars. There was a car close behind me at this time, as well, though I coudln't tell if it was going to slow for the turn or not; it hadn't by the time I was reaching the corner....

So i made the corner fine, but then the front wheel was losing traction, which does not happen on this corner normally, and despite my steering input it was still drifting left, not completing the turn quickly enough. I braked with the regen brake on the rear, but one problem with that is at present only the left rear has such braking...so it actually forced me harder left while slowing me down. Braking with the front didn't do much of anything as the front wheel was already losing traction.

The most likely reason for the loss of traction was the gusting wind, coming from a direction that let it catch the canopy and the side of the trike, and lift the front just a little, and push the trike leftwards at the same time.


But what it amounted to was that I couldn't stop quckly enough, and I couldn't complete the turn enough to avoid hitting the front bumper of a car waiting to turn left, facing me in the next lane to my left. I didn't hit it very hard, and was probably only still going less than 5MPH...but the mass of my trike was enough to keep pushing against the bumper until the alloy crown of the fork snapped at both stanchions. :( It only left a bit of red paint on his bumper, but the trike was unrideable.

The driver was understandably upset, even angry, and I apologized and was going to trade information so that if I had to I could pay for removing the marks the trike had made, but he just yelled at me to get it out of the way, so I did what I could (wiht my injured ankles; I guess they were hit by the bottom edge of the cargo/seatbox) to drag it to the side of the road, and up the "driveway" onto the sidewalk next to the canal bike path immediately south of the collision spot. While I was doing that, the ligth turned green for the cars, and they all drove away, including the one I'd hit. He never came back, for wahtever reason, though I was there for almost a couple of hours.

I called my brother Raine to see if he could bring me one of my old forks (and a wheel, in case mine was bent too badly to use; I couldn't tell at this point), via Uber or whatever..and shortly after I'd reached him and he'd said he'd get ready (which was going to take a while) and bring them. While waiting, a friendly Cuban jogger along the path stopped and asked if I needed help; he didn't speak enough English, nor I Spanish, to allow communication, but I'd tried to assure him I had help coming, so he jogged on. Some while later, he came back going the other way, and this time used the translate app on his phone and we worked out that he had a small pickup and offered to help me get the trike home, and went to go get his truck. So I called my brother back, who was just about ready to head out, and let him know he could wait until I determined whether or not we could get the trike into the truck.

Once the truck was there, Candido (the jogger) enlisted the help of another passerby (who thankfully spoke both English and Spanish) to get the trike into the truck; I couldn't do very much between my usual pains and problems, and the new issues with my ankles, which were beginning to stiffen and hurt (turns out the hamstrings were bruised; they're a nice purple and green now, a day later). Once the back half of the trike was in the truck bed, we used my cargo straps to secure it, and another of mine and one of his to tie down the front end pieces to the front triangle, and then he used google navigate to get to my house, where he got the trike back off basically by himself (didn't want me to hurt myself worse), and he, my brother, and I talked a bit via google translate before he headed off.

Thankfully, the only part destroyed was the fork. The wheel is even still amost completley true, and round. The fender is gonna need some hammering to fix it, so it's left off for now.

I swapped out the broken fork for the old one I'd originally used on SBC; it's nowhere near as good but it does function to let me ride the trike to work and back. The main problem is it's not stiff enough so braking sucks; if I have the physical ability over the next two days off work, I"m going to swap it out for the fatbike fork and a rear wheel (or rear hubmotor wheel so I can use regen braking too). But I have to make parts to weld or clamp to the fork to hold brake bosses for the rim brakes, and I'm not sure I can do that quickly enough. If I can't, I'll just keep working on them till I can do it, and then get this done during my upcoming week off at the end of the month.

I *may* have a regular fork that is non-suspension that will work in the threadless headset / etc that I have on the trike, and if so I'll swap it out for the crappy suspension fork on there now, until I can use the fatbike fork, on the supposition that it should be stiffer and make braking better, which is more important than suspension.


My emotional state is still up and down; I've never hit anybody or anything before, though I've *been* hit (on regular bikes). I still get shaky now and then, for no reason I can determine, that doesn't appear to be physical.

My hamstrings and ankles still hurt badly enough to crowd out my usual pains; it's worse if I don't use them (like when I slept last night, or when I sat down for lunch at work today), though it's also difficult to walk even with my cane, I'm much slower than usual, and am having to use it even at home (where usually I can just stop and sitdown or hold onto things, and not ahve to use it; got used to that when Tiny was still around, since she didn't like the cane at all). But it'll get better, back to "normal", just might take a few days or a week or two.


The wierd coincidence is that this collision occured not mroe than a car length east of my crash site from around late 2005 IIRC when the bike that later became DayGlo Avenger had it's stem just break off while riding down the road, leaving me with handlebars unconnected to the wheel.... With no steering control I couldn't prevent the bike from hitting a curb, which sent me over the front to land om the piont of my right shoulder...which I ddint' break, but badly bruised, and it acts up now and then these days, probably from that.


My lesson has been to slow down at corners unless I *have* to keep speed up to avoid being hit, and to slow down anyway if there is less than two *empty* lanes for me to turn into, just in case a similar situation occurs in the future. If I wasn't so paranoid about getting run over from behind, the collision probably wouldn't have happened. (though there were a lot of things that factored into it, that was the first, root cause).

Anyway....that's the news for now.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Apr 19 2019 2:51am

My ankles (hamstrings, really) feel better, and the bruises are mostly gone, but other bits of me began aching, especially my back and left wrist, neitehr of which shows any external problems.

So I spent almost all the last two days resting, working on computer stuff and other things that don't require much physical effort, so I'll be able to do my job at work tomorrow with minimal (or no) help.

Been considering more about how to do the fatbike rim brake boss addons; have to make some measurements and drawings.

e-beach   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3011
Joined: Jan 10 2012 9:48pm
Location: Any Los Angeles area beach I am at. Or Santa Monica or possibly the south bay beaches.

Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by e-beach » Apr 24 2019 7:40pm

I just now saw you crashed. :shock: I am really sorry it happened to you. :oops: Glad you are on the mend!!!

:D :bolt:
Favorite Quote: "This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." --- Chris Erskine

Current build: Liahona w/ cheap front suspension and suspension seat post. Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front hub motor. 15ah Headway triangle mounted pack. Tronsung 30 amp,

Previous Build:1992 Trek Antelope 800 - Bone Crusher (no suspension) - Yescomusa 800 watt 36 volt front wheel kit. Don't do it! Get suspension!!!

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