Wanted...Twist throttle with regen braking included

PatmontS

1 mW
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
16
Hey guys,
I've exhausted my search for a twist throttle that also serves as the motor regen brake when twisted forward from neutral.
Vectrix has one but you need to buy five separate parts that total over $600... I don't think so.
Can anyone point me to a more suitable source?
Thanks for any leads.
 
Sorry, I don't think they exist off the shelf.

I can build them for half the price of the Vectrix ones :wink:

The old Xooter EX3 had a thumb version of it.

I would go for a hall sensor / magnet arrangement in the brake lever. Barely squeeze the brake lever and you start getting regen, and have it ramp up to max right around the point where the friction brakes kick in.

Another possible option would be something like a separate thumb throttle just for regen control.

I sort of don't like the idea of a bi-directional throttle on an off road vehicle. I just see accidentally hitting full regen upon landing from a jump or something. The brake lever is much more intuitive to experienced riders.

All you need to do is machine a recess in the lever for a small cylinder magnet and a recess in the lever housing for the hall sensor. The sensor can be embedded in epoxy.

See this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9950&hilit=brake+switch+magnet

Another approach: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8972&hilit=brake+switch+magnet
 
Thanks fechter,

We used to use that magnetic sensor with the regen/mechanical brake lever on our earlier Hoverboard and Stealth II back in the late 90's. We also discontinued that product, and that was one of the reasons due to lack of reliability. If it got out of adjustment (often) nothing worked.

After test riding the Vetrix, it was just so elegantly simple and ergonomic to have the rear wheel control all in one wrist action.

How soon could you have one to me that works with the DC brushless Kelly controler?
 
Making a "real" one with all the guts in the throttle housing may be beyond what I can do with my available tools. I'll dig around in the junk box and see what I can come up with.

How about a standard motorcycle throttle (the kind with two cables) going to a pot box? I think I could do a pot box version. The pot box can get stashed inside somewhere that is protected from rain, etc.
 
I kind of agree that bidirectional Vectrix-style throttle is probably the best option. But you have to keep in mind that there are few patents on such throttles and that could be an issue with volume production (not that it matters for DIY).

For prototype build the main issue is to make mechanical thing with double the twist motion and centering spring. Sensors are the easiest part. You can stick proportional halls and tiny magnets pretty much anywhere and completely seal them with epoxy - 100% waterproof.

For Kelly you need two sensors and a switch to use the regen properly. Note that Kelly must see all of these conditions: (i) brake switch closed, (ii) zero signal on throttle analog input, (iii) non-zero signal on brake analog input for variable regen to work.
 
I found your throttle ... well maybe :)

http://www.freeenergystore.com/evhubmotors.html

Item #15 - Electronic throttle Ass’Y with cord & plug, P/N 1015......$49.
2-way acceleration with “regen braking,” LED & off switch,
clamps to standard 7/8” diameter handlebar

Our unique patented (U.S.A. # 6,144,125 plus other pending) electronic throttle looks to be the picture of simplicity, and it is; but, we are embarressed to say how many complete redesigns, heaps of scrapped out protype parts and cold cash we spent perfecting this now simple reliable device. First of all, it clamps onto a standard 7/8" diameter bicycle or scooter handlebar and takes the place and position of the normally right side mounted derailleur twist grip. Basically, it is a torsion spring balanced two way twist grip device with an integral off switch at the home position, with multicolor smart LED's for operator information. After you have pedaled or pushed the vehicle (a unique safety feature of this design) up to 2-3 mph, turning the twist grip counter-clockwise accelerates the vehicle; releasing the grip allows the vehicle to coast and twist grip to return to its home position; turning the grip clockwise at any time, turns the hub motor into a generator and you get progressive regeneration or electric braking, efficiently putting energy back into the batteries. One nifty, but easily taken for granted feature of the design, is that actuating the electric brake at any time automatically shuts off the motoring as the hub motor-generator is either one or the other; it can not simultaneously be both, no matter what condition or age of the vehicle. When the motor device is a seperate structure from the braking device as in other designs, this safety feature cannot always be taken for granted as parts wear, maintenance is neglected and people forget to tend to it. Highly intuitive, this throttle is quickly mastered and appreciated by new riders as it eliminates the skills necessary to master gear shifing; one merely twists and goes or brakes; you don't even have to remember to turn it off, as even this is automatic. This throttle is specifically designed to be used only as part of our #500W System; any other use instantly voids our warranties and it is not recommended.
 
Thanks.
Great find Joepostal, but not available unfortunately.
 
fechter said:
Making a "real" one with all the guts in the throttle housing may be beyond what I can do with my available tools. I'll dig around in the junk box and see what I can come up with.

How about a standard motorcycle throttle (the kind with two cables) going to a pot box? I think I could do a pot box version. The pot box can get stashed inside somewhere that is protected from rain, etc.


Can you make a electronic board that "read" normal throtle 0-5V and gives out 4 outputs, 2 digital and 2 analog. First analog gives 5-0V form input 0-2,4V, second analog gives 0-5V form input 2,6-5V and frist digital is on when input is below 2,45V and second digital is on when input is higher then 2,55V... second digital i s not necessery...

I'll pay you for this circuit and sure other kelly users will too...
 
Oh damn, well now that I have read the regen vs coasting arguments I don't want regen but I have not planned for a freewheel on my city bike. If not having a freweheel turns out bad I will do what Grinhill is doing (roller clutch). I have a copy of his build started... I was seriously considering this throttle since I want to remove the rear brake and it would add a simple regen brake.

For my cx450 I have a single reduction on order and just need to decide on the batteries and all the bit parts.
 
HAL - I use Kelly regen controller and after trying various throttle configurations to control both brake and regen (with a circuit similar to what you describe) I ended up using proportional sensor on a brake lever. I find it very intuitive and comfortable. Perhaps with a Vectrix-type throttle with proper bidirectional spring action it may be better, but the way I set it up it feels really, really nice ! An electrically boosted proportional brake. Take a look at my thread referenced by fechter.
 
SOME YEARS PASSED...


Any other option on dual-action regen throttles? :roll:

 
One simple work around, is a horn button to start enable regen. I put mine on the left side. No ebrakes, but the ebrake circuit is wired through the horn button. I could easily grab brakes with both hands, and still modulate regen on and off with the left thumb.
 
This is what you need, this is what I have on mine. When you turn the throttle to zero the regen kicks in, twist the throttle and it clicks off again.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/domino-twist-grip-throttle-with-microswitch.html
 
crea2k said:
This is what you need, this is what I have on mine. When you turn the throttle to zero the regen kicks in, twist the throttle and it clicks off again.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/domino-twist-grip-throttle-with-microswitch.html

I'm looking to purchase the Domino soon, but if the microswitch acts as a regen...then you'll no longer be able to coast. :cry:
 
subscribed. Interesting thing, this vectrix throttle.. Really interesting.
 
Might be a little off topic here but is a similar line of thinking.

I always thought it would be useful to set up a variable regen system that mimics the feel of a motorcycle clutch. Basically use a left hand brake/clutch lever with halls that produces its full signal at rest and zero signal when fully squeezed. Then use a microswitch equipped throttle so when you release the throttle regen would be full on so it feels like an engine brake and as you pull the clutch it free coasts. Might be a little tricky since the brake signal overrides the throttle signal. I have a feeling getting the correct feel would be more dependent on the time it takes the controller to switch modes. Might be more than a simple hardware challenge. Perhaps slip regen on full with the throttle and brake wired together in some kind of circuit where there oppose each other would be the solution.

Might be a dumb idea trying to mimic the shortcomings of the ICE rather than evolving past them. I just think it would be neat for long time motorcycle riders to use the same clutch and throttle techniques they are used to for technical riding.
 
If you want variable regen, I think the newest updates for the Cycle Analyst will do it. As others said, set your "e-brake" to engage without the physical brakes activating. Then vary the regen amount by increasing throttle.
Colin
 
VirgilBudBrigman said:
crea2k said:
This is what you need, this is what I have on mine. When you turn the throttle to zero the regen kicks in, twist the throttle and it clicks off again.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/domino-twist-grip-throttle-with-microswitch.html

I'm looking to purchase the Domino soon, but if the microswitch acts as a regen...then you'll no longer be able to coast. :cry:

If you wire the Domino throttle closed switch for regen (a really interesting idea), you'll still be able to coast by holding the throttle slightly open. It will only click the regen at the very end.

I use a Domino throttle and like it a lot, but never wired the switch. I use a brake lever with hall sensor and magnet to get variable ebraking with the Sabvoton, and it is fantastic with a Cromotor. It can be adjusted up to skidding the rear wheel if you want, I set mine just shy of that. Proportional control with the brake lever. Rear is ebrake (no friction braking on rear) and front is dual disc on the Borg.
 
DanGT86 said:
Might be a little off topic here but is a similar line of thinking.

I always thought it would be useful to set up a variable regen system that mimics the feel of a motorcycle clutch. Basically use a left hand brake/clutch lever with halls that produces its full signal at rest and zero signal when fully squeezed. Then use a microswitch equipped throttle so when you release the throttle regen would be full on so it feels like an engine brake and as you pull the clutch it free coasts. Might be a little tricky since the brake signal overrides the throttle signal. I have a feeling getting the correct feel would be more dependent on the time it takes the controller to switch modes. Might be more than a simple hardware challenge. Perhaps slip regen on full with the throttle and brake wired together in some kind of circuit where there oppose each other would be the solution.

Might be a dumb idea trying to mimic the shortcomings of the ICE rather than evolving past them. I just think it would be neat for long time motorcycle riders to use the same clutch and throttle techniques they are used to for technical riding.

Many controllers have "engine braking" simulated with "slip regen" that causes minor regen on release of the throttle. It is not full regen, and activating the variable ebrake with the Sabvoton shuts it off to allow coasting, which causes a slightly strange acceleration as the ebrake lever is actuated, until the variable ebraking starts coming on.
 
ColinB said:
If you want variable regen, I think the newest updates for the Cycle Analyst will do it.
V3 proportional regen support is for Grinfineon or PhaseRunner controllers only and uses the throttle to also control regen. Regen kicks in at an adjustable initial level when you apply ebrakes - you can then open the throttle in the normal direction to increase the regen up to the controller max. There's some extra logic thrown in that offers a bit of protection if you release the ebrakes w/o first ZEROing the throttle.

You should be able to implement a similar 'dual purpose throttle' regen scheme for the Kelly KBS-style variable regen that has a separate variable regen input and requires an ebrake closure and ZERO throttle to activate. As shown in the illustration below, you should be able to use a resistor and diode to parallel the throttle and variable regen inputs to the operator throttle. Hitting the ebrakes signals the controller as per normal and also drags the controller throttle input to ZERO. The resistor allows the throttle voltage to continue to be applied to the regen input. This would operate similar to the CA proportional regen (without the extra alert logic stuff) in that after you hit the ebrakes you could dial up the regen by opening the throttle. I haven't tried this, but it should work.... Whether or not this mode of operation is desirable is a different question.... :D

KBSCombinedThrRegenControl2.png

EDIT - This should work with a KBS style controller that uses 5V for ebrakes. Beware of other Kelly controllers with 12V brake levels...
 
i believe the kelly controllers have a feature called torque control,that makes it happen.
i got seriously injured ,because of faulty design,(mechanical) while this was "set".
it requires the return spring be disabled!
 
neobeam said:
i believe the kelly controllers have a feature called torque control,that makes it happen.
i got seriously injured ,because of faulty design,(mechanical) while this was "set".
it requires the return spring be disabled!

Can you explain what happened? Safety is important.
 
Yes, Im interested too. Got also injured. Nothin nice I can tell you...
 
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