Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Get all your technical information about electric bikes here.
Post Reply
NoClassic   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: Aug 28 2019 10:35am

Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by NoClassic » Aug 28 2019 10:45am

Is it possible to run a pedal assist only configuration utilizing the Sempu BB without the CA? I am wanting a very discreet setup because of theft concerns and given the use of the bike would not have much need for active monitoring after initial setup in the Grin controller software.

If this is not an option with the Grin controllers what would be a good alternative controller to consider?

billvon   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3051
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by billvon » Aug 28 2019 1:28pm

NoClassic wrote:
Aug 28 2019 10:45am
Is it possible to run a pedal assist only configuration utilizing the Sempu BB without the CA?
Sure. The Phaserunner will take a straight throttle signal without the CA.
--bill von

NoClassic   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: Aug 28 2019 10:35am

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by NoClassic » Aug 28 2019 2:24pm

Is the output of Sempu BB correct for that controller input?

User avatar
NCC1941   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: May 28 2019 11:50pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by NCC1941 » Aug 28 2019 3:15pm

NoClassic wrote:
Aug 28 2019 2:24pm
Is the output of Sempu BB correct for that controller input?
No. On top of the signal voltage range not matching what you would expect from a throttle signal (which you can correct for in the Phaserunner programming software), the Sempu bottom bracket requires a 10v power supply that the Phaserunner doesn't provide, and there's nowhere to plug in the Sempu's cadence sensor, so that'll just be ignored, resulting in an experience that's different than intended even if you do get it working.
"The Kitchen Sink" - 2016 Surly ECR 29", 2WD Grin All-Axle + 9C RH212, 2x Phaserunner, 52v50Ah EM3ev (Rolling WIP)
"Novara Barrow eBike" - 2016 Novara Barrow Bike, Luna BBS02, 52v28Ah EM3ev (Retired)

NoClassic   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: Aug 28 2019 10:35am

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by NoClassic » Aug 28 2019 5:51pm

Thanks so much for the additional information here and within the ebike subreddit NCC1941.

Are you aware of any other controllers that would allow a more minimal installation while still offering FOC and torque sensor based pedal assist?

Jatem   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Jun 03 2019 3:08pm

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by Jatem » Nov 16 2019 1:18am

Would it be possible to use a PAS display that connects to the throttle input with the phaserunner, like this one from em3ev?
https://em3ev.com/shop/pas-controllerdisplay-sensor/

Are there any Arduino projects people have used for a similar purpose? The CA3 is so big and chunky.

Cephalotus   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 657
Joined: Jun 18 2012 12:27pm

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by Cephalotus » Nov 16 2019 5:32am

Jatem wrote:
Nov 16 2019 1:18am
Would it be possible to use a PAS display that connects to the throttle input with the phaserunner, like this one from em3ev?
https://em3ev.com/shop/pas-controllerdisplay-sensor/

Are there any Arduino projects people have used for a similar purpose? The CA3 is so big and chunky.
Sadly not, afaik.

I'm searchig for similar solutions.

Maybe some "pre controllers" could work that are designed to give a signal output from ~0V to~5V depending on several input factors incl brakes, throttle, PAS, etc...

What I do own but what i didn't try yet is an mmc-3 precontroller from https://elfkw.at/produkte/controller/mmc-v3-bluetooth

(don't know if an english describtion is available)

I do use one with a 10 year old chinese controller + small geared hub motor to make the system EU legal.

You can define v-max, A-max (from battery) and how the throttle works. Didn't try if regen is possible, too, maybe not in combination with PR which puts the regen not on a brake contact but on the throttle input.

The mmc-3 is not able to get an input from a torque sensor, but only from simple cadence sensors. You have an input if you do pedal, but not how much.

The mmc-3 is quite expensive, too, but you do not need that huge CA3 on your handlebar. A smartphone can do the configuration and can serve as a display, but you can ride it without.

you can set two configurations, i.e. one street legal and one not. Changing modes can be done via smartphone (hidden or not) or at system start.

not ideal, but this is what I do have.

john61ct   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3639
Joined: Dec 18 2018 2:06pm

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by john61ct » Nov 16 2019 11:07am

"pre-controllers" is pretty good, is that term standardized?

Are there others?

I think "meta-controller" could be more accurate, given the "control limiting", some offer monitoring, post-ride statistics etc

matmaxgeds   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 31
Joined: Aug 14 2016 7:41am

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by matmaxgeds » Nov 16 2019 3:03pm

I would be interested in a 'pre controller' that worked with common torque/cadence sensing bottom brackets and converted it straight to a throttle signal for use with a baserunner/phaserunner without needing a CA. Bonus points if it did regen based on pedalling backwards etc.

Maybe we could pool our resources to fund someone with the skills to do it / do a group buy if a custom board leads to the best result? Anyone else interested? Maybe we could even convince Grin if we get enough people?

robby p   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 21
Joined: Aug 22 2018 10:34am

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by robby p » Nov 27 2019 4:15pm

It seems like the device you just described is exactly a cycle analyst. Just get one of those.

john61ct   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3639
Joined: Dec 18 2018 2:06pm

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by john61ct » Nov 27 2019 4:24pm

Yes in order to recover development costs, can't see a "crippled CA" like that being much cheaper.

Plus ones you get all those added features for free, I'm sure some of them will come in handy.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 29017
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by amberwolf » Nov 27 2019 7:46pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Nov 16 2019 5:32am
Maybe some "pre controllers" could work that are designed to give a signal output from ~0V to~5V depending on several input factors incl brakes, throttle, PAS, etc...
Sure, you could build one, if you know how to either design opamp circuits or program MCUs.

Realistically it's a lot easier (and likely cheaper than all the development costs) to just buy a Cycle Analyst v3 and set it up for what you want (although it does not do *everything* the way I personally need it to, it works for most people that use it for this).

I've been thinking for a while about a simple hardware circuit that would take pulses from a common cadence sensor and integrate them into a "constant" voltage output, with a simple adjustment knob for min throttle voltage out, and another for max throttle voltage out, and a simple gain knob to let you set it up for your particular cadence vs throttle output. It shouldn't take more than $10 in parts including a bit of perfboard to wire it on, or perhaps $15 or so if a PCB was made for it in enough quantity to make them cheap.

A bit more complexity would allow a brake cutoff input to shutdown the throttle output.

A bit more complexity from there would allow the use of some torque sensors instead of just cadence.

But this kind of system is so simple it's not really that tunable to a particular usage scenario, unlike the CA, unless you make even more complexity to the circuitry and more adjustment knobs. Very much of this and it gets a bit on the large side, and becomes cheaper and easier (especially for the end user) to do this using an MCU, programmed for the task. At that point, it's easier to just use the CA3, unless it simply doesn't have the feature(s) you need.

The mmc-3 is quite expensive, too, but you do not need that huge CA3 on your handlebar.
You don't "need" the CA on your handlebar at all.

You can mount it wherever you like, once configured (which can all be done via the USB-serial cable and the Windows or Apple setup program). Stick it in with the battery or the controller, or wherever else you like.

If you don't ever want to see the display on it at all, and don't mind some DIY, you can even take it out of the case and cut the LCD off, and have a smaller board you can package however you like.

If you like you can still even use remote buttons, switch, or knob via the Aux input, where the buttons/switch/knob is mounted whereever you can reach them, to change certain things on the CA "live", like switching presets, or amount of assist, etc.

User avatar
pwd   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 328
Joined: Oct 11 2011 12:01pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by pwd » Mar 29 2020 11:47am

Does anyone know if it's possible run a Phaserunner without a Cycle Analyst and still have regen braking? Does it accept a basic brake signal?

Thanks
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
em3ev 14S5P 30Q + 14S6P 25R pack

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

User avatar
NCC1941   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: May 28 2019 11:50pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Grin Base/PhaseRunner without Cycle Analyst

Post by NCC1941 » Mar 29 2020 12:30pm

pwd wrote:
Mar 29 2020 11:47am
Does anyone know if it's possible run a Phaserunner without a Cycle Analyst and still have regen braking? Does it accept a basic brake signal?

Thanks
The Phaserunner doesn't accept a basic on/off brake signal, but it does have a second signal wire hidden under the throttle connector's shrinkwrap (normally wired in parallel with the main throttle signal wire), which you can separate. This second signal wire is used for proportional regen, and you can wire it up to a second throttle or throttle-like input to control your regen braking.

For example, you can have a righthand throttle for... throttle while also having a lefthand throttle for regen, or you could use a cable throttle converter like this one to map proportional regen to a typical mechanical brake lever.
"The Kitchen Sink" - 2016 Surly ECR 29", 2WD Grin All-Axle + 9C RH212, 2x Phaserunner, 52v50Ah EM3ev (Rolling WIP)
"Novara Barrow eBike" - 2016 Novara Barrow Bike, Luna BBS02, 52v28Ah EM3ev (Retired)

Post Reply