PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

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thunderstorm80   1 kW

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PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by thunderstorm80 » Mar 24 2020 11:53am

Hi,
I understand that newer versions of the PR, come without plug-braking.
That is - regen intensity diminishes as you approach zero speed, but at no point a positive current will be drawn from the battery in order to provide that negative torque.
Plug-braking cannot be disabled via the software suite, only via a FW update.
I got Grin's current production FW (At the time - it was already 1.5 years ago) that has no plug-braking, but otherwise is identical.

In order to flash a new firmware you need the BacDoor software.
Grin had a version of it for download, but it seems that version didn't work with Windows 10. (It would start the firmware update and "hang" - luckily no bricking occurred)
I wonder if one of you has a modern version of BacDoor, and if you have performed such firmware update on the phase-runner with it? (and with modern PC with Windows 10)
If so, I would be happy to receive that version so I could install and use it.
I could contact ASI, but I understood they never answer any emails and their customer support is practically non-existent. (Which is really surprising since they are based in Canada, and afterall - their controllers are quite good)
The fact that they have such a shitty human relations makes it even more scarier to perform such firmware update, in case anything can go wrong, :confused: but I really want to get rid of that annoying plug-braking!

Do some of you have the modern no-plug-braking version of the PR? How does it feels when you approach zero speed but still request the maximum regen phase current?

goatman   10 kW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by goatman » Mar 24 2020 12:44pm

I have a newer phaserunner, I don't know what plug braking is but I can tell you how my regen feels. with battery regen at 70v/20 amps, I think regen phase at 60 and regen torque ramp up 200 ms. id get 1400 watts regen and I don't need to use my brakes to stop but regen braking at high speed, I only have a push button to activate regen, so on or off. just felt hard on the spokes and the sidewalls of my tire were showing wear something like chord flexing. I changed regen ramp up to 400ms, now I need to use my brakes to come to a complete stop at a stop light and I don't think ive seen 1000 watts regen since and I haven't changed battery or phase regen amp settings. might try 300ms to see how that feels but most likely switch to thumb throttle to activate regen and put regen ramp up back to 200ms or less then I can control how it feels and I wont really need my disc brakes

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NCC1941   100 mW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by NCC1941 » Mar 24 2020 1:57pm

I have two of the newer Phaserunner L10's, purchased in August and September 2019. They both transition to plug braking at low speed, consuming power to bring the bike to a complete stop, as their default behavior. The transition from regen to plug braking is quite obvious and a bit jarring (the braking force fades as regen fades, then suddenly gets strong again as it transitions), but nothing you can't get used to.

To get rid of plug braking on my front hub, I used the PR suite to set the Phaserunner to not regen at all below ~8mph. On my hub, that's roughly where regen starts to really taper off, but before the plug braking kicks in.
"The Kitchen Sink" - 2016 Surly ECR 29", 2WD Grin All-Axle + 9C RH212, 2x Phaserunner, 52v50Ah EM3ev (Rolling WIP)
"Novara Barrow eBike" - 2016 Novara Barrow Bike, Luna BBS02, 52v28Ah EM3ev (Retired)

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by flat tire » Mar 24 2020 2:06pm

Try an earlier windows or compatibility mode. Probably an easier solution than relying on one of the few people here with an updated bacdoor binary to send you.

goatman   10 kW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by goatman » Mar 24 2020 3:09pm

NCC1941 wrote:
Mar 24 2020 1:57pm
I have two of the newer Phaserunner L10's, purchased in August and September 2019. They both transition to plug braking at low speed, consuming power to bring the bike to a complete stop, as their default behavior. The transition from regen to plug braking is quite obvious and a bit jarring (the braking force fades as regen fades, then suddenly gets strong again as it transitions), but nothing you can't get used to.

To get rid of plug braking on my front hub, I used the PR suite to set the Phaserunner to not regen at all below ~8mph. On my hub, that's roughly where regen starts to really taper off, but before the plug braking kicks in.
thanks,now I know what plug braking is, I wondered what the feeling was, I would check my clamping torque arms and everything is solidly clamped and nothing budges but it reminded me of a sloppy torque arm hole but its the switching im feeling. youre 8mph makes a lot of sense to me also.

thunderstorm80   1 kW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by thunderstorm80 » Mar 25 2020 4:43am

goatman wrote:
Mar 24 2020 3:09pm
NCC1941 wrote:
Mar 24 2020 1:57pm
I have two of the newer Phaserunner L10's, purchased in August and September 2019. They both transition to plug braking at low speed, consuming power to bring the bike to a complete stop, as their default behavior. The transition from regen to plug braking is quite obvious and a bit jarring (the braking force fades as regen fades, then suddenly gets strong again as it transitions), but nothing you can't get used to.

To get rid of plug braking on my front hub, I used the PR suite to set the Phaserunner to not regen at all below ~8mph. On my hub, that's roughly where regen starts to really taper off, but before the plug braking kicks in.
thanks,now I know what plug braking is, I wondered what the feeling was, I would check my clamping torque arms and everything is solidly clamped and nothing budges but it reminded me of a sloppy torque arm hole but its the switching im feeling. youre 8mph makes a lot of sense to me also.
I can tell you the exact feeling of plug-braking:
The controller in that "mode", will prioritise the requested regen braking torque.
So if you send the controller the max braking torque (According to your throttle voltage map) and started braking on a flat at 30kph, you will feel the exact same braking force all the way to zero speed.
The price of that, is that in order for controller to be able to output the same braking torque when the speed is too slow and so little back-EMF is available, it will CONSUME higher and higher battery currents in order to do so.
In fact, if you try to push the bike forward from a stop against the full braking torque of the motor, you will see consumed power in the order of 500W-700W!
And the controller DOESN'T OBEY the defined battery current limit while in plug-braking, so it's very important to be aware of this.
According to Grin, the plug-braking wasn't been meant to be active at all, and especially since it's "buggy" in the way that it consumes as much battery current as it wants without limits.

thunderstorm80   1 kW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by thunderstorm80 » Mar 25 2020 4:47am

flat tire wrote:
Mar 24 2020 2:06pm
Try an earlier windows or compatibility mode. Probably an easier solution than relying on one of the few people here with an updated bacdoor binary to send you.
This is why I made that post, with the hope of finding someone with experience with flashing the firmware of the phase runner, and that has a (more) modern version of Bacdoor than what I have, and can share it.
I guess you can understand that if flashing starts and gets stuck which means the software is a crap, the thought of just changing to older operating system doesn't sound trustworthy enough. This is why I want to hear of proofs that it works in certain configuration, so I don't risk bricking that (Expensive) Phase-Runner. :)

thunderstorm80   1 kW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by thunderstorm80 » Mar 25 2020 4:50am

goatman wrote:
Mar 24 2020 12:44pm
I have a newer phaserunner, I don't know what plug braking is but I can tell you how my regen feels. with battery regen at 70v/20 amps, I think regen phase at 60 and regen torque ramp up 200 ms. id get 1400 watts regen and I don't need to use my brakes to stop but regen braking at high speed, I only have a push button to activate regen, so on or off. just felt hard on the spokes and the sidewalls of my tire were showing wear something like chord flexing. I changed regen ramp up to 400ms, now I need to use my brakes to come to a complete stop at a stop light and I don't think ive seen 1000 watts regen since and I haven't changed battery or phase regen amp settings. might try 300ms to see how that feels but most likely switch to thumb throttle to activate regen and put regen ramp up back to 200ms or less then I can control how it feels and I wont really need my disc brakes
The torque ramp times, in the orders you write of, have nothing to do with the tire's flexing.
Very short ramp times (like ~1-5ms) can deliver impulse impacts which aren't recommended, and for geared motors this can mean a total disaster.

goatman   10 kW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by goatman » Mar 25 2020 9:34am

thanks thunderstorm, at maybe 5mph, when I leave my back lane theres a stop sign 20 feet away and I push my regen button, it feels like it turns on, then off, then back on but quickly. that's the plug brake transition im feeling? I run a 3540 with a 24x3.0 and hitting the regen at 60km/h. I noticed rubber disappearing ever 3 inches in a pattern like this / / / / on the sidewall, looked like something to do with the way the sidewall chords are joined like a seam? I don't know.

I just got a new laptop with windows 10 and haven't put the phaserunner suite on it yet but I still have my windows 7 laptop. so to get rid of this plug braking youre looking for a firmware update for windows 10.

is there a firmware update for windows7 that I can use to get rid of plug braking?

thunderstorm80   1 kW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by thunderstorm80 » Mar 25 2020 1:18pm

goatman wrote:
Mar 25 2020 9:34am
thanks thunderstorm, at maybe 5mph, when I leave my back lane theres a stop sign 20 feet away and I push my regen button, it feels like it turns on, then off, then back on but quickly. that's the plug brake transition im feeling? I run a 3540 with a 24x3.0 and hitting the regen at 60km/h. I noticed rubber disappearing ever 3 inches in a pattern like this / / / / on the sidewall, looked like something to do with the way the sidewall chords are joined like a seam? I don't know.

I just got a new laptop with windows 10 and haven't put the phaserunner suite on it yet but I still have my windows 7 laptop. so to get rid of this plug braking youre looking for a firmware update for windows 10.

is there a firmware update for windows7 that I can use to get rid of plug braking?
You say you have rubber disappearing on the sides?
Perhaps your spokes aren't tensioned enough and the wheel flex so much during torque-load, that it rubs the frame? (although you would have heard that...)

With the software suite you config the phaserunner or monitor it, and it works very well with Windows 10. To flash a new firmware you need the bacdoor software from ASI, and the file containing the flash code.

goatman   10 kW

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Re: PhaseRunner without Plug-Braking

Post by goatman » Mar 25 2020 2:02pm

I put the air pressure up too. I don't know if you've seen the sidewalls of kenda tires but it seems like a weakness in their process? so im babying this tire til I can find a 24x3.0 razorback but grin is out of stock right now.

I understand what you mean about firmware, its not PR suite, and thanks for saying that phaserunner suite works good with windows 10, I was kind of wondering about that

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