SOLVED: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

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SOLVED: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Raphael303 » Jun 14 2020 6:35am

Hi

Image

In the new version of the CA3 with the 8 pin HiGo they have that "Key Return" lead going to the controller. Or is it coming from the controller?

It says on the CA3 page:
"... pass extra wires for the motor temperature signal and an on/off power switch directly to the Cycle Analyst to reduce the amount of cable clutter."
"TO the Cycle Analyst"

Assuming I use the baserunner or phaserunner, which don't have switches on them, where do I connect the switch to?

The phaserunner update manual says this:
2) On/Off Switch Wiring: By default, the on/off switch wires inside the throttle heatshrink are disconnected rather than shorted together. This means that the Phaserunner will not power on and function until either this switch wires are connected or a CA3-WP is hooked up.
So that would suggest the switch has to go to the CA3. But where to?

I'm going to switch to a phaserunner from an old grin-controller, and I'm also changing all switches on my CA3 to higo, especially the 8 pin one. And I want to have a keyswitch after the mod and don't get where to wire that one in.

Can anybody help me?

SOLVED:
------------------------------------------------

V+/VBatt, red wire, always has V+, no matter if PR is turned on.
Key, orange wire, will have V+ once PR is on, respectively will turn the PR on, if you connect it to V+ (red).

Why? Because the Orange and Red wires in the CAWP harness are paralleled with the Yellow and White wires in the Throttle Switch.

If you connect orange and red OR yellow and white, PR will turn on. And thus if you connect yellow and white, you will get VBatt on the orange wire.
Last edited by Raphael303 on Aug 15 2020 5:28am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by amberwolf » Jun 14 2020 8:57am

If you have a keyswitch you wire that to the "power on" or "keyswitch" wires, whatever they call them.

Normally such a switch connects a "KSI" keyswitch / ignition wire to the battery positive,but you should check the manual for your system to get the specific pins and wires to hook up and where they should do so.

The CA itself has nothing to switch anything on or off with, so any switch you use for it has to be external to that.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by kookhaus » Jun 16 2020 1:46pm

Hi,

I have just received a Phaserunner MT V3 that was a replacement for a V2 that stopped working after a few months.

I appreciated the prompt service and the quick delivery of the V2. However, the Phaserunner MT V3 had a different plug connector to the Cycle Analyst V3.1 that I have.

1. I have removed the WP8 plug and connected the color-coded wires that worked on the previous JST plug to another JST plug.

2. I have exposed the white and yellow wires at the throttle heat-shrink and have used these for my handlebar on/off (the same set up I had for the V2).

The on/off handlebar switch turns the engine power on and off and turns the red led light on the Phaserunner on and off.

But it does NOT turn the Cycle Analyst off. The red and black wires from the Phaserunner to the CA 3.1 have the full voltage running through them. (I have tested them).

Am I doing something wrong? I have found almost no information about the V3 Phaserunner other than copies of the 'Updates over V2 Model' sheet.

Do I have to use the mysterious orange on/off wire from the new Phaserunner to CA loom? If so can anyone show me with a wiring diagram that will enable me to completely turn the CA 3.1 off as well.
I am not an electrical engineer.

Just missed riding on two rare 19 degrees centigrade winter days to add to my frustration.
(I am in Christchurch New Zealand)

Paul

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by amberwolf » Jun 17 2020 1:04am

Sounds like the new PR doesn't connect the CA's red wire to the PR's internal keyswitched wire, but rather to it's main power wire.

If that's the case, then you'd need to manually connect the CA's red wire to the same wire that comes from your switch that turns the PR on. (instead of to the wire on the PR it presently goes to). Then when you switch the PR on/off, the CA will do the same.

You'd have to check the PR's manual (if it's been updated with the new wiring) on Grin's site to see what the orange wire you're referring to is for.

EDIT: see the below posts, but it sounds like you need to connect the CA to the Key wire (presumably the orange one), instead of the Vbatt wire (presumably red).

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Raphael303 » Jun 17 2020 1:29am

amberwolf wrote:
Jun 17 2020 1:04am

You'd have to check the PR's manual (if it's been updated with the new wiring) on Grin's site to see what the orange wire you're referring to is for.
This is actually the underlying question of this thread. See first question. The according parts from the manual are already above in the first post. It does not become clear what it is for from the manual.
Last edited by Raphael303 on Jun 17 2020 1:59am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by amberwolf » Jun 17 2020 1:55am

Raphael303 wrote:
Jun 17 2020 1:29am
This is actually the underlying question of this thread. See first question. The according parts from the manual are already above in the first post. It does not become clear what it is for from the manual.

I may be confused, but my reply you quoted is to a different person with a different problem, though related in basic idea to yours.

FWIW, what I replied to you with already applies to your specific problem--the CA doesn't have a switch, so you will need to use an external switch, wired between whatever keyswitch/ignition wire comes from the controller, to whatever that switch requires for voltage (usually that is battery positive). If you don't have an external switch, you will have to add one. If you don't want a switch and just want it always on, you could connect it directly to the required voltage at the controller itself, without running it up to the handlebars, if the wire is accessible there.


This page
https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phas ... connectors
shows what the connector wiring is for everything on the PR. If what you have is not wired like that, you would have to contact Grin Tech directly to find out how they wired yours.

Presumably the pin marked "Key" below needs to be connected to battery positive to power on the PR. That's the same thing as what is commonly marked as Keyswitch or Ignition (KSI) or Doorlock, etc., on generic controllers.
CA Display - WP8: The V3 Phaserunner uses the waterproof WP8 Cycle Analyst plug standard which includes motor temperature and on/off power lines to the CA3. Please use the WP8->JST adapter for use with older models of Cycle Analyst using the 6-pin JST-SM plug.
PR_WP8.jpg
PR_WP8.jpg (11.14 KiB) Viewed 867 times

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Raphael303 » Jun 17 2020 2:00am

I did an addition to my previous post, which crossed over with your new one. So I deleted it again and put it back in here.
Thank you for your response.

We know the "on/off switch wires" from the original PR which are in the throttle cable, have to be shorted together to make the PR start up. (manual)

We know that when a CA is connected to ca CA3 with the new WP plug it will power up. (updated manual)

We know that the orange wire is to turn the PR on and off. (updated manual)

We DON'T know where the orange wire has to be shorted TO!
Gnd or V+? This is the problem and not something I want to try out.
Why? There are no TWO wires for PR On/Off in the the new WP-plug, so we don't know where to short the orange wire to.

Furthermore I assume that the red wire coming from the new PR with WP-plug has always power and is the one that needs to be switched. It then would only remain unclear what to do with the orange wire in order to turn on the PR. I get a new CA3 with WP-plug on friday. Since I will have to open it up anyways I will let you know where the orange wire goes to.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by amberwolf » Jun 17 2020 2:04am

I guess I replied while you were editing, so here's a new reply to your new edit:
Raphael303 wrote:
Jun 17 2020 1:29am
We know the "on/off switch wires" from the original PR which are in the throttle cable, have to be shorted together to make the PR start up. (manual)

We know that when a CA is connected to ca CA3 with the new WP plug it will power up. (manual)

We know that the orange wire is to turn the PR on and off. (manual)

We DON'T know where the orange wire has to be shorted TO!
According to the information on the page I linked, there is a pin for Key. If the orange wire is connected to that pin (you can verify with continuity or ohms setting on your multimeter, with everything disconnected from power), then Key connects to battery positive to turn on the controller, if it works like all the other controllers with Key or Keyswitch or Ignition / KSI / Doorlock, etc. (which also usually use an orange wire for this).

The Vbatt presumably is the red wire, which is probably internally connected to the battery positive inside the PR.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Raphael303 » Jun 17 2020 2:10am

Key IS the orange wire :wink:

If you are correct and this has to be connected to V+ then it would require, that the red wire, labeled "VBatt / Battery+" coming from the PR has ALWAYS Vbat, even when the PR is off. Otherwise there would be nowhere to get V+ from.

But, that would be opposite to how it was with my old GrinController, which only sends Vbat to CA3, when it is turned on.

Which then would make me assume that the Key has to be shortend to ground, which is always available...

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by amberwolf » Jun 17 2020 2:24am

According to the other poster in the thread, the red wire *does* always have power.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by kookhaus » Jun 17 2020 4:28am

Hi Timberwolf,
Yes, that makes sense. However I emailed Grin Tech and got this reply.

"Hey Paul, yeah in this case you want the orange wire going to the CA's power, rather than the red wire. Red is battery V+, orange is the Key+. -Justin"

So I will try that out this weekend!
Thanks for your help too,
Paul

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Raphael303 » Jun 17 2020 4:53am

amberwolf wrote:
Jun 17 2020 2:24am
According to the other poster in the thread, the red wire *does* always have power.
Thank you for putting the puzzle together! I overlooked that.


So, to sum this up, and true for phaserunner with WP-Plug.

V+/VBatt, red wire, always has V+, no matter if PR is turned on.
Key, orange wire, will have V+ once PR is on.
Last edited by Raphael303 on Jun 18 2020 10:10am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by kookhaus » Jun 18 2020 2:58am

Firstly sorry about miswriting your name in a previous post, Amberwolf.

Secondly.
I have just finished successfully setting up the new Phaserunner_MT V3 and my existing Cycle Analyst V3.1.

I use the 'hidden' yellow and white wires from the throttle cable as my on/off handlebar switch.
And using Justin's advice-
I removed the WP8 plug from the Phaserunner and have connected it to a 6 pin JST plug, enabling it to connect to the CA.
I connected the green, yellow, blue, white and black wires to the JST plug aligning to the existing colours on the CA side.
The grey and RED wires from the Phaserunner I sealed off and ran the ORANGE wire to the #1 pin of the JST plug, it now connects to the red wire on the CA side of the plug.
This now means my CA and Phaserunner now shut off at my keyed 'ignition' switch.
It all works and I am calling this a success! :bigthumb:

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Raphael303 » Jul 13 2020 1:41am

To sum this one up, for real:

V+/VBatt, red wire, always has V+, no matter if PR is turned on.
Key, orange wire, will have V+ once PR is on, respectively will turn the PR on, if you connect it to V+.

Why? Because the Orange and Red wires in the CAWP harness are paralleled with the Yellow and White wires in the Throttle Switch.

If you connect orange and red OR yellow and white, PR will turn on. And thus if you connect yellow and white, you will get VBatt on the orange wire.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Ypedal » Jul 14 2020 5:13pm

Hey everyone.

Messaged grin and asked via email then went looking and found this thread... ( should have done the reverse.. sorry.. i know )

So given the above scenario.. what if i cut both the V+ and Orange wires in the pigtail between the CA and the Baserunner WP plug, series solder my on/off switch in there ?

If i just cut the orange wire, only the baserunner turns off but the CA stays on.. if i cut both the red and orange wires, both should turn off.. no ?
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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by amberwolf » Jul 14 2020 6:36pm

Whichever wire supplies power to the CA also has to be cut. If that's the red wire, then yes.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Ypedal » Jul 15 2020 1:33pm

just tried this and no bueno..

Because the orange wire ends up on the V+ controller side the controller is always powered on..

Having a two switch system would work, one for the CA and another to bridge the white and yellow in the throttle cable, but i really want to make this a one switch system....

anyone have any suggestions ? 2 pole switch, if i had one... but i don't.
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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by amberwolf » Jul 15 2020 2:04pm

I guess I don't really understand the problem.

I thought you wanted to switch both PR and CA on/off at the same time.

If that's the case, then you can cut the supply wire that goes to both, and switch that.

Or, if there are two wires, one to the PR (orange) and one to the CA (red) then you cut both, and then put the supply side of the supply wire on one side of the switch, and both the PR and CA on the other side, on the same pole.

Then both will power on at the same time and only when the switch is on.

If the supply to the PR (keyswitch wire) down there at the red and orange wires comes from the CA itself, then you need to cut the power *before* the CA.

If the supply to the PR (keyswitch wire) is from a separate supply than the CA itself, then you would need to merge those two supplies, disconnecting them from the CA and the PR, and put the switch in between the disconnect points.

or if the points are in different places in the wiring harness, and would require switches in different places because of the layout, you could instead use an SPST relay on each one, controlled by a single switch wherever you want it. This would mean adding at least one, possibly two, wires to each harness to activate the relay. One to go to the switch from the relay coil, and the other to go to the relay coil's other side to either power or ground, whichever is not being switched by the switch.


However you do it, my first recommendation would be to draw out your wiring harness on paper or in the computer, by wire color, starting from the battery to the CA to the PR, including any switches in between. That way you can find out which ones you would have to cut and rewire, without a bunch of experimenting. ;)

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Ypedal » Jul 15 2020 9:38pm

oh there was some experimenting .. :lol:

Got it figured out, so to recap .. i have a 36v pack without any switches... Baserunner controller in the battery box wired directly to the pac + and - .

From the BaseRunner, the CA wire is the new standard WP plug, the CA itself has the old style JST so there is a pigtail adapter..

Within that Adapter, cut only the RED + wire, leaving the orange wire intact.. put the switch there in series, this cuts power to the CA and turns off the BR as well.
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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by zacksc » Jul 21 2020 4:29pm

so is the bottom line:
when the orange and red wires are connected, then the baserunner is on?

Is the red wire the 4.8 volts and the black wire is ground? Is that a universal convention?

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Raphael303 » Jul 21 2020 11:59pm

Raphael303 wrote:
Jul 13 2020 1:41am
To sum this one up, for real:

V+/VBatt, red wire, always has V+, no matter if PR is turned on.
Key, orange wire, will have V+ once PR is on, respectively will turn the PR on, if you connect it to V+.

Why? Because the Orange and Red wires in the CAWP harness are paralleled with the Yellow and White wires in the Throttle Switch.

If you connect orange and red OR yellow and white, PR will turn on. And thus if you connect yellow and white, you will get VBatt on the orange wire.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by zacksc » Jul 22 2020 7:56am

Perfect. Thanks!

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by zacksc » Jul 22 2020 8:04am

Is it important or beneficial to have a switch for the base runner? What if I just set it up so my baserunner is on whenever the batteries plugged in. Which might be an extra two or three hours each day while I’m parked. Is that bad for the baserunner?

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by Raphael303 » Jul 22 2020 8:37am

I think it wouldnt be bad for it but robbs you of the possibilty to ever turn the bike completely off with the battery plugged.

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Re: CA3, HiGo, Key Return ? Where does the key switch connect to?

Post by zacksc » Jul 22 2020 2:25pm

When there be any sparking to speak of or worry about when I plug in the Anderson connectors from the 36 volt battery?

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