X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

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semiroundel   1 mW

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X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 21 2020 4:29pm

Hi all, newbie here, so I may make mistakes. Sorry.
I have read stickys, but question not answered.
A year ago I bought an Alfawise X1 bike from Gearb*st.
It ran once round the block then the motor would hardly turn on assist or throttle.
I checked the battery in and out of bike and it's showing a healthy 42v (and this was after about 10 months sitting, charged inside the bike) it's a 36v 10.4 ah.
After a year of trying to get the bike returned to them, with no luck, I decided to give it a go. I do have basic electronic testing equipment, being an electrician Fluke MM, clamp ammeter, and so forth.
The controller is a X863-AA005 250w 36-48v current limit 12a.
I cannot find the same for love nor money, and to make it more complicated it has a 6th wire (white) in addition to the other 5 on the hall plug. Why is that? What does it do, if anything I should be concerned about?
I saw the excellent spreadsheet and am quite prepared to go through the process when testing to find smooth acceleration coupled with low current draw.
I'd be more than happy to supply detailed photos of the cables, and also the internals of the controller, to show where the cables terminate
One last question: I have seen a controller advertised on Banggood that works in dual mode in that it will work without hall sensors. Would that intefere with the process of working through the spreadsheet?
TIA

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by amberwolf » Jul 21 2020 6:31pm

At a guess, it's probably a geared hubmotor, and the white wire is probably for a speed sensor. Otherwise, if it's a DD hubmotor, it's probably a temperature sensor.

You can power on the system with everything connected normally, and use a multimeter on 20VDC with black lead on black wire, and red lead on the white wire, and manually rotate the wheel off ground. If you see voltage at something between 0v and 5v, that changes with temperature, that's what it is. If you see a voltage that changes vrom 0v to 5v over and over again, like the hall sensors (Green, Blue, Yellow), then it's a speedometer sensor.


The root problem you're seeing is probably blown FETs in the controller, which could be caused by wire damage on the motor cable, usually right where it exits the axle. The controller might be fixable if so, but often other stuff blows when the FETs do.


YOu can test the FETs and other things by the documents at http://ebikes.ca/learn on the troubleshooting tab.

semiroundel   1 mW

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 21 2020 8:22pm

Thanks Amberwolf, the display does have a speedometer, so I'm guessing that's what it is, I'll still check though.
1. Is it possible that it's a speed sensor and still a DD motor?
2. If it's is indeed a geared motor, does that affect the type of controller I replace it with, if I replace it (square wave sinusoidal wave)etc?
3. As the bike was and is, essentially brand new, how likely is a damaged cable, considering there's no visible damage to it?
4. Unfortunately the link doesn't work
Cheers.

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by amberwolf » Jul 21 2020 9:09pm

semiroundel wrote:
Jul 21 2020 8:22pm
Thanks Amberwolf, the display does have a speedometer, so I'm guessing that's what it is, I'll still check though.
THe hall sensors can be used to monitor speed, but not accurately in a geared motor, because it will only measure *motor* speed, and when not powering the motor, or the motor spins at less than wheel speed, then the speed reading will be wrong.

1. Is it possible that it's a speed sensor and still a DD motor?
Sure, but it's not that likely, simply because the hall signals can be directly used. If there were no halls, *then* it's common enough.
2. If it's is indeed a geared motor, does that affect the type of controller I replace it with, if I replace it (square wave sinusoidal wave)etc?
Except for certain high pole count geared hubs like Ezee, MAC, BPM, (which yours is none of), it shouldn't matter much, if at all, so if you replace the controller you should pick one with the features you want. If you want one with a screen, get a kit with one, rather than trying to work out a separate one (taht way you know it will work; they don't always work when bought separately).


3. As the bike was and is, essentially brand new, how likely is a damaged cable, considering there's no visible damage to it?
Not very likely, but it does happen, where stuff gets mashed in shipping or in the assembly process. Uuslaly you can see something, but it can be as little as a slightly flattened spot, which you might not even notice. Unfortunately a regular multimeter or ohm meter can't tell the difference between the low resistance of phase windings, vs a short circuit. :(


4. Unfortunately the link doesn't work
I guess their site is very picky; this is it, but it's on the tabs across the top bar if this one doesnt work.
https://www.ebikes.ca/learn.html

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 22 2020 5:36am

After doing a bit of digging around, it looks like this brainpower unit:
https://www.banggood.com/24V36V48V60V-2 ... rehouse=CN

Has the white wire in question, and it would appear that the motor on my bike (we're now thinking it's a geared motor) is the speed-reading wire for the display screen.
Some have held in high regard the KT series of controllers, is the general opinion that they're better?

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by amberwolf » Jul 22 2020 4:38pm

The main thing is that there is Open Source Firmware for many of them in a thread here by Casainho, Stancecoke, et al., that if you are into DIY enough to reprogram one (which can always risk bricking it, but usually doesn't), and a compatible display for it, will give you options that no other "cheap" controller will give you. ;)

The actual hardware may or may not be any better than any other unit...but the OSFW options certainly are. :)

viewtopic.php?t=87870

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 31 2020 9:14am

well i checked the fets using the excellent tutorials in the link-thanks for that. No problems there.
I didn't see there how to check the motor windings (did I miss that?)
The code in the pic of the display indicates motor fault but the manual is supposed to have a symbol for motor fault (if the manual is to be believed), but maybe it's a different type of fault.
The symptoms are that the motor doesn't run on either throttle or PAS.
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semiroundel   1 mW

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 31 2020 9:16am

well i checked the fets using the excellent tutorials in the link-thanks for that. No problems there.
I didn't see there how to check the motor windings (did I miss that?)
The code in the pic of the display indicates motor fault but the manual is supposed to have a symbol for motor fault (if the manual is to be believed), but maybe it's a different type of fault.
The symptoms are that the motor doesn't run on either throttle or PAS.
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Last edited by semiroundel on Jul 31 2020 9:27am, edited 1 time in total.

semiroundel   1 mW

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 31 2020 9:19am

Sorry guys, for not having put on my glasses-if I had done so, I would've seen the motor fault symbol that I can clearly see now.
Where do I go from here?
After a bit of googling I'm wondering if it could be one of the brake inhibitors, should they be open circuit or closed.
And if not them, then what?
TIA

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by fechter » Jul 31 2020 9:30am

Does the manual tell you what E7 indicates?
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

semiroundel   1 mW

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 31 2020 10:59am

Both the symbol and error code say: Motor failure
So I'm guessing it's a failure in the motor.
Having quite some experience with brushless motors for RC electric flight, I'm puzzled as to what it could be, espaecially as it only did about a mile before stopping....

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by E-HP » Jul 31 2020 11:12am

Off topic, but that cable routing in the pic is exceptionally clean. I see the frame even has a braze-on to accommodate the zip ties. :thumb:

semiroundel   1 mW

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 31 2020 11:20am

Essentially the bike is like new, once round the block, then nothing. No throttle or PAS.

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by E-HP » Jul 31 2020 11:58am

I would start with checking the wiring. Riding around the block once doesn't seem like it would fry the motor, but might be enough for something to work its way loose. Was there any other symptoms right before it shut down? Can you check the continuity of the hall sensor wires from the controller to the motor? When you said "the motor would hardly turn on assist or throttle" it seems to indicate that at least some power is flowing from the controller to the motor.

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Jul 31 2020 6:03pm

When you said "the motor would hardly turn on assist or throttle" it seems to indicate that at least some power is flowing from the controller to the motor.
[/quote]
I may have been imagining that. On checking hall sensor wires, would I need to separate hub? I'm guessing yes.

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by E-HP » Jul 31 2020 7:06pm

semiroundel wrote:
Jul 31 2020 6:03pm
I may have been imagining that. On checking hall sensor wires, would I need to separate hub? I'm guessing yes.
So did you stop and turn the bike off, or did it stop while you were riding it? On the halls, start with the connector to make sure none of the wires are loose and maybe have some bad crimps.

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Aug 01 2020 3:19am

E-HP wrote:
Jul 31 2020 7:06pm
semiroundel wrote:
Jul 31 2020 6:03pm
I may have been imagining that. On checking hall sensor wires, would I need to separate hub? I'm guessing yes.
So did you stop and turn the bike off, or did it stop while you were riding it? On the halls, start with the connector to make sure none of the wires are loose and maybe have some bad crimps.
Thanks for your help E-HP.
My memory (which is not what it was when I was younger) was that it went round the block but VERY quickly slowed to a stop on the next outing. That is to say that it moved a little, a few yards, but slowly,then it moved no more.
It hasn't fallen over, it was well packed when I received it and no obvious physical damage.
I can do continuity tests on the controller, but once I begin testing the cables to the motor I'm guessing I'll have to crack the hub?

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by fechter » Aug 01 2020 2:55pm

I would start by testing the hall signals. To do this, put the negative meter probe on the black wire or main battery negative and use the positive probe to measure each of the 3 hall signals. Power on and slowly rotate the wheel by hand and look at the voltages on the signal lines. Each one should toggle between near zero and near 5v. If they toggle, they are OK. If you find one that isn't toggling, there's your problem.

Sometimes it's tricky to get the meter probe on the connector when it's still connected. Depends on the connector style. I often use a skinny solid strand wire to poke in the back side of the connector where the wires come out and attach that to my meter probe.

6th wire on most hall connectors is for a temperature sensor.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: X863-AA005 controller Hall plug has 6 wires?

Post by semiroundel » Aug 02 2020 8:20am

Many thanks fechter. I am now a broad on vacation, but the minute I get back I'll be sure and post my findings.
Afterb all, there may be others out there with a similar problem.

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