Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

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yabert   10 mW

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Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by yabert » Dec 12 2020 8:10pm

Hi
I have a regular Trio Cargo bike (like first pic below, but white and with a 3 speeds gear hub). I would like to add a Bafang BBS02 on it, but like you can see, the bottom bracket is circled by aluminum tubes.
I find a 3D model online of the Bafang motor. I don't know if it's accurate, but if yes, the motor don't fit at any place (pic-2-3-4).
I know some cargo bike have this motor like Larry vs. Harry Bullitt, but is some one know if it can fit on a Trio Cargo?
If no, is someone know if the bafang motor can be modify a bit to help the fit?

As battery I plan to try to build a 52V 15Ah battery out of a 22V 45Ah battery module from a gen1 Chevy Volt.
So I will have to cut busbars and separate the groups of 3P cells.
Seem like a bit of trouble, but hey, this battery is almost free and super powerful!

Thanks
Attachments
Trio cargo.JPG
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bafang trio-1.JPG
bafang trio-1.JPG (52.65 KiB) Viewed 535 times
bafang trio-2.JPG
bafang trio-2.JPG (50.59 KiB) Viewed 535 times
bafang trio-3.JPG
bafang trio-3.JPG (41.79 KiB) Viewed 535 times

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yabert   10 mW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by yabert » Dec 16 2020 7:44pm

Humm! After looking more and more at bafang pictures it seem like this motor will not fit in my frame except if I do important modifications to aluminum tube.
What about the compact TONGSHENG TSDZ2 for a cargo bike?
This motor is quite small. I don't find 3D model, but it look like I will only need to shave a bit of aluminum tube to fit it (red line on pic).

The big downside for me with this motor is the lower power and the fact it can't work with a 14S battery. I can build 12S battery, but I would like to have a 14S batt to match the voltage of other stuff I use.

Any advice?
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TONGSHENG TSDZ2.jpg
TONGSHENG TSDZ2.jpg (194.27 KiB) Viewed 476 times

kcuf   100 W

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by kcuf » Dec 16 2020 8:11pm

use different bike

and bbshd
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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by amberwolf » Dec 16 2020 10:24pm

I'd venture that your best (meaning, easiest to install without modifying the trike) option to be able to use a middrive that goes thru your gears, on that trike, is to setup a StokeMonkey style drive in the frame in front of your cranks, which drives the left crank (you'd replace yours with a stoker left crank from a tandem), and thus can use all the gears of the trike.

Grin Tech http://ebikes.ca may still have some of their SM stuff in stock, but I don't think they have any complete systems left.
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle ... parts.html

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yabert   10 mW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by yabert » Dec 18 2020 12:29pm

[/quote]
kcuf wrote:
Dec 16 2020 8:11pm
use different bike
Well... Strange how like some people show their high intelligence in public.
amberwolf wrote:
Dec 16 2020 10:24pm
I'd venture that your best (meaning, easiest to install without modifying the trike) option to be able to use a middrive that goes thru your gears, on that trike, is to setup a StokeMonkey style drive in the frame in front of your cranks
Right. Not a bad idea, but it remove the fact that a mid drive is nicely design with integrated controller, few wires and so.
In similar case, a hub motor with external controller and many wires seem an easier way to go.

Really, I'm looking at a 3D model of the TSDZ2 to see if it can pass on the frame if I cut it a bit like it seem to work with the BBS02 (see pics) and know more about the rear fixation bolt.
Or, any advice to use or not use the TSDZ2 on a cargo bike. We prefer the torque sensor of this motor, but the BBS02 is higher power and 14S compatible, so I hesitate between both.
Attachments
BBS02 with frame mod.JPG
BBS02 with frame mod.JPG (107.45 KiB) Viewed 416 times
TONGSHENG TSDZ2 3d.JPG
TONGSHENG TSDZ2 3d.JPG (44.71 KiB) Viewed 416 times

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yabert   10 mW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by yabert » Dec 18 2020 3:57pm

After looking more and more at the tsdz2, it seem the BB and the motor are really close together.
For the BBS02 I found 13mm between BB output and motor (pic) or 29.5mm between BB center and motor.

Do anybody have those dimensions for the tsdz2 motor (or one of the red arrow)? I'm fear those dimensions are smaller compare to the BBS02.
Attachments
BBS02 motor gap.JPG
BBS02 motor gap.JPG (48.93 KiB) Viewed 402 times
TONGSHENG TSDZ2 distance.JPG
TONGSHENG TSDZ2 distance.JPG (144.63 KiB) Viewed 402 times

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by amberwolf » Dec 18 2020 11:46pm

yabert wrote:
Dec 18 2020 12:29pm
Right. Not a bad idea, but it remove the fact that a mid drive is nicely design with integrated controller, few wires and so.
In similar case, a hub motor with external controller and many wires seem an easier way to go.
The SM style drive is a little less "compact", and more DIY, but it also gives you the option to customize any part of it you want, which is difficult or impossible with the single-unit middrives.


FWIW, a hubmotor in the wheel has several disadvantages (though some advantages), including making the wheel weaker, being unable to gear the motor up or down for varying riding conditions / terrain (so you don't get the best performance, and it takes more power to do the same things that could be done with a middrive-thru-the-gears), and it's less easy to work on the wheel if you need to do tire/tube repairs roadside. A hubmotor also has a different axle than a regular wheel, and applies torque to the frame / dropouts which a regular wheel does not (though an IGH-hub wheel does, it's done thru a well-developed torque arm/etc that comes with and fits perfectly the IGH axle; the same isn't true of any of the common hubmotors--the torque arms are all separate and not made specifically for that exact axle, and axles do vary (though they shouldn't) even within the same brand/model.

I've done my own middrives, both successful and not, and my own hubmotor-driven bikes/trikes (successful and not), and for this type of application, I personally would now not put the motors in the wheels anymore (despite the simplicity of the setup, I've just had too many problems directly related to doing that). My new trike (design in progress) will be driving the wheels via chain(s) from the motor(s) one way or another, which makes the wheel itself separate, stronger, easier to deal with problems roadside, etc.

So, up to you, and depends on your specific needs and limitations which works better for you. :)

Or, any advice to use or not use the TSDZ2 on a cargo bike. We prefer the torque sensor of this motor, but the BBS02 is higher power and 14S compatible, so I hesitate between both.
I don't know enough about either to know what it would take to fit them on that particular bike, but if you want a torque sensing BB, you *can* use one with the hubmotor-in-wheel drives. I am not sure that you could make one work with an SM style drive (because it passes power thru the BB and so would be positive feedback).

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by Chalo » Dec 19 2020 1:58am

yabert wrote:
Dec 18 2020 3:57pm
After looking more and more at the tsdz2, it seem the BB and the motor are really close together.
Don't mess with the TSDZ2; it's notoriously unreliable, and the crank spindle breaks off.
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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by Voltron » Dec 19 2020 2:22pm

And so hard to get parts for when it goes down.

Are you actually planning on carrying cargo, and using it on a regular basis where reliability is important?
If so, I would really lean towards wheel motor. The extra loads in the chain and cassette will eat them up quickly. Most of my customers that got a mid drive are shocked by how fast they're going thru parts, and that's separate from the motor itself failing.

Where crank drive really shines is off road, where the centralized weight and light motor makes the handling better, like in jumps.
Plus you can use modern mountain bike stuff like thru axle, and change flats easier.

But for utility bike that keeps both wheels on the ground all the time, it's really hard to beat the simplicity and reliability of hub motor.
So much easier to find parts of there's a failure also, and if the chain somehow broke, you can still motor home, which can happen more with mid drive. You can also use regen braking, which you can't with mid.

Great looking bike btw!

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by Chalo » Dec 19 2020 3:39pm

Voltron wrote:
Dec 19 2020 2:22pm
Are you actually planning on carrying cargo, and using it on a regular basis where reliability is important?
If so, I would really lean towards wheel motor. The extra loads in the chain and cassette will eat them up quickly. Most of my customers that got a mid drive are shocked by how fast they're going thru parts, and that's separate from the motor itself failing.
That's why I converted my cargo bike from BBS02 to front hub motor. I haven't regretted it at all.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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yabert   10 mW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by yabert » Dec 21 2020 3:31pm

Holy crap!!!
I google: tsdz2 crank spindle breaks off

What a bad engineered shaft! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Thanks. I'm happy to learn this before ordering it. It can not be a dangerous problem for my cargo bike, but what about this motor on my mountain bike. Never ever with this shaft :confused:

Well, as I really dislike external controller and/or huge diameter hub motor, it seem the BBS02 is the only choice for my modest power and speed need.

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by Voltron » Dec 21 2020 4:48pm

Just before you totally go down the crank drive path, your exterior controller could be as small, powerful and cool looking as this... (Courtesy of the website sponsor Justin LE!)
controllerinhand.jpg
controllerinhand.jpg (64.95 KiB) Viewed 302 times
Phaserunner_Jack_Button.jpg
Phaserunner_Jack_Button.jpg (90.61 KiB) Viewed 302 times
If you run rear rack with side bags, that does a lot to hide a motor.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by Chalo » Dec 22 2020 1:39am

yabert wrote:
Dec 21 2020 3:31pm
Well, as I really dislike external controller and/or huge diameter hub motor, it seem the BBS02 is the only choice for my modest power and speed need.
Dislike it if you want, but a separate controller is easier and cheaper if you need to replace it (or want to upgrade it). Your bike has a great low-key place to mount one, underneath the floor of the cargo bay.

If it were my bike? I'd use a front hub motor-- direct drive if I wanted to use it all the time, geared with a one-way clutch if I wanted to use it only sometimes. BBS02 is entertaining to ride, and with careful use of gears it gives performance out of proportion to its power. But it has many points of failure, and it chews through drivetrain parts like they're Girl Scout cookies. I think it's a good choice for a play bike but not so much for a work bike.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by Grantmac » Dec 22 2020 1:26pm

How much power are you looking to run? IGHs really can't take a lot of torque and a 3spd won't have that much range to let you meaningfully pedal at higher speed.

Worrying about an external controller while running a mashup of EV cells also seems at cross purposes.

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yabert   10 mW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by yabert » Dec 28 2020 3:49pm

What I dislike is not the external controllers, it's the large quantity of loose wires coming with. And to add crank detection, you have to a have more wires and stuff to integrate.

Mashup battery? Well, I don't see any problem with this clean and powerful Chevrolet Volt battery with only 2 wires. Especially after fit a cover over it.
I'm ok with 500-750w of extra power and a top speed of 30-35 kmh. It's a bike to move kids, food and some other stuff, not a bike to do delivery as job.
Few years ago I tried a 10 kW hub e-Bike and it's was a lot of fun, but it's not the kind of performance I'm looking for this cargo.

What are the suggestions for hub motor kit with PAS at the similar price than a BBS02?

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by Chalo » Dec 28 2020 4:13pm

Well, the only wires you have to connect to anything are throttle, battery, and motor. PAS if you want it. There are more stray cables than that dangling from BBS02/BBSHD and its harness, and they're all out in plain view rather than tucked away underneath.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Trio Cargo e-bike mid drive

Post by Stu Summer » Dec 28 2020 5:09pm

I have three BBSHD's. I like them a lot. But I have also burned up three stock internal controllers and I do not ride hard at all. One of them was water ingress. I have also melted the internal Anderson connectors between the controllers and the motor. I'm unhappy with that design. It is also very unpleasant to put back together in that tight space. Next time one burns out, I will go with an external controller. I don't know if the controllers in the 02's are more reliable.

This may not be relevant but on my LWB recumbent, which is heavy and long like your Trio, I am very happy with the combo I have. I have an old cyclone 500w in-line middrive and a MAC 5t (fast winding) in the front wheel. The midrive, using the bike's gears, accelerates well from a standstill but I usually cruise at 25-30mph with the Mac, with the cyclone helping on the hills. I have also been very grateful for two different systems when one give out (usually a loose connection somewhere due to my cheezy DIYing.)
2013 DB Haanjo Commuter with BBSHD and Zzipper fairing
Marin Rift Zone FS with BBSHD
Kysmo "lab" bike with 350w hub motor
Ryan Vanguard recumbent LWB with a 36v Cyclone 350w middrive and a 56v MAC 5t in the front hub.

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