2WD install/set up advice appreciated.

Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
60
Location
Toronto
Hey everyone,
(edited this initial ask...as im practicing to be less long winded..and to explain my situation more concisely and update for any newcomers..)

I work as a home service Bicycle Mechanic in Toronto, www.matteosbikerepair.com if you would like to check out my cute little business (plus i have some great stories IMO from my 4 years cycling North and central America when i was 19 on the 'adventours" tab)

I regularly carry me and my 160lb body, 50/60 odd lb diamond frame. and my approx 300lb Bicycle Trailer (just got painted like a koi pond by my Gf!) 50/60 km a day 5 days a week and sometimes up hills that force me do the running man on my bike for a longggg time up 6-8% grades, and looking to get a little more E help.

googled, watched GRin 2wd/3wd youtube video...but still couple questions.


So I love exercise, regularly put out avg 200 Hwh and 300-400 Hwh while on pedals up a hill. with my Crystalyte h3540 with statorade, Ca3 52V 16ah batteries (3x of them) and a 40 Amp Grinfeon controller.

I have one Phaserunner,yet to be installed, another on the way to make dual motor set up with my new Gmac 8T motor on the rear wheel of this diamond frame. (at first theres a page and a half of discussion on how to set this up with Grinfeon Controller which is now focused on two phaserunners)

Otherwise other pertinent information would be that I can normally charge my batteries 4/5 times a day for hour or so while fixing bikes at a customers home. i often have seen the great inefficiency of riding all day..just charging 1 maybe 2 batteries even though im lugging around 3. and see that i can sweat a littttle less..and employ more of my availabile batteries that i obviously had no right to be lugging around with me anyway except for emergency..everyones living in a conodo and theres no random outlet outside for me to plug into all day sort of days.

TO THE POINT OF WHAT IM ASKIng! sorry for the suspense...
How to properly balance these two motors, how to set up the Regen/ebrake capacity to its max for both of these motors to assist in me never killing myself or others on the road. and hopefully within this conversation i can learn how to understand and use the Grin motor simulator better...
 
To answer this we probably need to know more about what you have. What "y connector" kit did you buy? They sell several. Did you buy an on/off switch? What are the specs on that? What version of the Cycle Analyst? Do you have the versions with JST or HIGO connectors?
 
Hey Blue Sea thanks! JST CA 3.4, Higo Splitters with the adapters.
 
So this?:

769F897C-EFEC-41D5-9497-B47C2AB2ADBA.jpeg

With adapters to JST? Is your Phaserunner JST or Higo?, I'm assuming you have a JST adapters for the older controller and also the older CA3?

Do you have a plan on Primary/Secondary? My guess is the GMAC primary and Crystalyte secondary? This should give you a motor temp reading on the GMAC. Also assuming you are using the GMAC from Grin that doesn't freewheel and can optionally be used for regen? Regen or not, that version supposedly has hall sensors that will feed the speedo to the CA3.

Finally, need some more info on what you plan to use for ON/OFF switch. Functionally, I think you will always be 2wd once configured. However, for a controller failure, and likely for tuning, it might be useful to be able to shut down each controller individually.

Sorry to keep asking questions, but I started to write a more detailed answer and it got way too long with all the possible ways to wire this setup.
 
BlueSeas said:
So this?:

769F897C-EFEC-41D5-9497-B47C2AB2ADBA.jpeg

With adapters to JST? Is your Phaserunner JST or Higo?, I'm assuming you have a JST adapters for the older controller and also the older CA3?

Do you have a plan on Primary/Secondary? My guess is the GMAC primary and Crystalyte secondary? This should give you a motor temp reading on the GMAC. Also assuming you are using the GMAC from Grin that doesn't freewheel and can optionally be used for regen? Regen or not, that version supposedly has hall sensors that will feed the speedo to the CA3.

Finally, need some more info on what you plan to use for ON/OFF switch. Functionally, I think you will always be 2wd once configured. However, for a controller failure, and likely for tuning, it might be useful to be able to shut down each controller individually.

Sorry to keep asking questions, but I started to write a more detailed answer and it got way too long with all the possible ways to wire this setup.


THAnks so much BLUE SEA! no worries on the questions! absolutely appreciate your time.
if ever i can return the favour let me know, only way i could think to be of service to you would be the following.

I do live video chat diy repair assistance for mechanical end of bicycle repair, i also guide folk on cross country touring strategy having cycled North america 2x.

adapters from JST to HIGO, phase is HIGO, Grinfeon controller and CA3 is JST correct.

I assumed id make PHaserunner and GMAc primary correct !
yes its the GMAC from Grin 8T

so ya i posted the on off switch. comes with unterminated 2 wires. just not sure where they connect. CA I assume. ya to use each controller individually. I imagine I could just disconnect one. and have the right HIgo to JST adapter ...or could i just disconnect the arm of the splitter going to the controller/motor that isn't working i wonder....
 
Ya i edited the initial post and put the on off switch above its this one,

https://ebikes.ca/switchwp.html
 
I will give this some more attention later today. One of the hardest parts is that power switch, and deciphering the old JST way and the new HIGO way. The Grin Doc doesn't do a terrific job documenting this part of the new HIGO standard.

See this thread:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=106776

But that covers a one motor install. And I'm not sure I understand even that yet. You have 2 motors which adds complexity.

On your existing controller, can you gain access to the pins on the rocker switch? With the switch "ON", connect a multimeter to battery pack ground, use the red multimeter lead to read voltage on the pins, both should read pack voltage. With the rocker switch "OFF" only one pin should show pack voltage. The other should show open circuit or 0V. Make a note of wire color/switch pin.

While there, in your pre GMAC configuration, see if the rocker switch controls power on the red wire of the CA3 connector. Assuming the CA3 normally went on/off with the rocker switch on the controller, I'm pretty sure it also switches the red wire on/off.

I think you ultimately will want more switches. You need the CA3 ON when either of the controllers is ON. I need to study this a bit more....in conjunction with the results from above.
 
.

Here is some more doc on how the Phaserunner works with the HIGO:

FD329986-6778-4887-BA08-083F323D16CD.jpeg

You likely have the CA3-DP (JST), and not the CA3-WP (HIGO). Likely you have the GMAC with the L10 connector between the motor and Phaserunner and the HIGO connector for the CA3.

Note the adapter supposedly shorts the white and yellow turning ON the Phaserunner. However, there is no "KEY" wire functionality, whatever that is, on your older CA3-DP.
 
BlueSeas said:
I will give this some more attention later today. One of the hardest parts is that power switch, and deciphering the old JST way and the new HIGO way. The Grin Doc doesn't do a terrific job documenting this part of the new HIGO standard.

See this thread:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=106776

But that covers a one motor install. And I'm not sure I understand even that yet. You have 2 motors which adds complexity.

On your existing controller, can you gain access to the pins on the rocker switch? With the switch "ON", connect a multimeter to battery pack ground, use the red multimeter lead to read voltage on the pins, both should read pack voltage. With the rocker switch "OFF" only one pin should show pack voltage. The other should show open circuit or 0V. Make a note of wire color/switch pin.

While there, in your pre GMAC configuration, see if the rocker switch controls power on the red wire of the CA3 connector. Assuming the CA3 normally went on/off with the rocker switch on the controller, I'm pretty sure it also switches the red wire on/off.

I think you ultimately will want more switches. You need the CA3 ON when either of the controllers is ON. I need to study this a bit more....in conjunction with the results from above.


Thanks! Rocker switch to confirm is the on off switch on the back of my 40 amp grinfeon controller.

Oh on/off is in throttle termination thanks!

But yes does it affect both systems, quick easy to try no? I can just tape wires quick and see.

Is it the three pin just throttle connector from the CA3 to the throttle or the connector at the phaserunner? Just realized I’m not sure. Seems like that article is speaking to PR so I imagine it’s that.

I just thought since the CA is what’s connecting both the on/off would be there.
Or I wonder if the on/off button turns both off dependant in if that controller is the primary from the splitter or not?
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
Oh on/off is in throttle termination thanks!

Do you have 2 on/off switches in the original installation? If you do, we will need to understand that wiring.

The only switch I was referring to is the one built into the original controller.

In regards to throttle, I assume the handlebar throttle plugs into the CA3 at handlebar. Further, I assume the output throttle from the CA3 goes to the controller via the DP plug:

FFE48965-AFAA-49D3-B350-DD36079A4F75.jpeg

Pin 6 is ThO, throttle out. This is "original" configuration. Ultimately, this pin also must feed the new Phaserunner too. Probably via the Y cable splitter. You most likely won't connect anything to the throttle connector on the Phaserunner. That's there mostly for installation on a bike without a CA3.

Are your JST to HIGO adapters you have exactly alike? I see the one that inserts between the CA3 and the Y adapter on Grins website. However you are planning to connect the existing controller's DP connector to the "secondary controller" output from HIGO Y cable. This adapter cable would likely need opposite sex mating connectors than the other one. Is this what you have?
 
I think a basic configuration may be easier than I originally thought.

Connect your "new" push button switch to the Phaserunner (PR) white and yellow wires under the throttle heat shrink.

Assuming the male/female adapters you have match what's needed, plug those in.

The new switch controls the PR, the old rocker switch on the existing controller controls that. What I'm not 100% sure about is power for the CA3. I think...whatever controller is in the primary position on the Y interface will power the CA3. With both switches ON it will work. But to run just one controller, it may require the primary connection.

Test this assumption. The PR is slightly more likely to work.

This far is basically plug and play. More advanced options possible. Will comment later on this and other possible wiring options. And some tuning ideas.
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
I don't know where to find the OHM rating of my Grinfeon 40A controller (read Manual)...
Did you look on the bottom of your Grinfineon? Mine is printed with the specs, including Rshunt 3.76 mΩ (yours may be different).
 
99t4 said:
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
I don't know where to find the OHM rating of my Grinfeon 40A controller (read Manual)...
Did you look on the bottom of your Grinfineon? Mine is printed with the specs, including Rshunt 3.76 mΩ (yours may be different).


Yes it is there as the RSHUnt value, I had never seen it before, but when i set it to the depicted 2.46 or something. a strange sound is emitted when i use the pedal assist but not the throttle....
 
BlueSeas said:
I think a basic configuration may be easier than I originally thought.

Connect your "new" push button switch to the Phaserunner (PR) white and yellow wires under the throttle heat shrink.

Assuming the male/female adapters you have match what's needed, plug those in.

The new switch controls the PR, the old rocker switch on the existing controller controls that. What I'm not 100% sure about is power for the CA3. I think...whatever controller is in the primary position on the Y interface will power the CA3. With both switches ON it will work. But to run just one controller, it may require the primary connection.

Test this assumption. The PR is slightly more likely to work.

This far is basically plug and play. More advanced options possible. Will comment later on this and other possible wiring options. And some tuning ideas.


Thanks for all your energy into this, yes i have all the right adapters, everything is all plugged in.

I got both wheels moving with the throttle today, primary being the PR, but when i tried turning the pedals the GMAc wouldnt let me move the pedals forward..it was strange, I will try the on/off switch on the PR but right now im more concerned about how to balance both these motors out, as when i used the throttle it seemed the gmac was doing much more work. and when i tried running a motor simulation it seemed to say the crystalyte was doing less work.

so ya balancing the phase current is supposedly how to balance these motors out, but i have no idea how to do that.
and figuring out why the pas wouldnt move when they were both hooked up.
as well as confirming what the rshunt value and any other CA values i may need to adjust is my main priority..the PR is 1.00mOHMs and the 40amp Grinfeon says 2.46 or something on it, so i believe i should be adding and dividing by 2 these amounts...but not sure..
 
Can you suspend the bike with both wheels in the air?

Try to tune the multiple controllers to "start" turning the wheels at the same throttle voltage. Use this CA3 screen to help:

B1D7069B-8633-4EBD-B76C-382F4F3A47C5.jpeg

Also...look at the regen parameters on the Phaserunner. For now, they likely need to be disabled somehow, I think the defaults use a low throttle voltage as a regen setting.

Do you have a PC and programming cable to plug into the Phaserunner? Without that, this will never work.
 
Worry about PAS later. And also the system amperage. First step is getting some balance on throttle to forward motivation.

You might need to replace the older controller with a Baserunner/Phaserunner. But we don't know that yet.
 
You could just run two throttles (plus PAS). I started off using a Cycle Analyst, but over the years I went KISS and never looked back.
I used a thumb and a half-twist, both left-side versions mounted on the left side next to each other. Very simple, inexpensive, reliable and easy to use;

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88304&p=1288657&hilit=dual+throttles#p1288657
 
BlueSeas said:
Can you suspend the bike with both wheels in the air?

Try to tune the multiple controllers to "start" turning the wheels at the same throttle voltage. Use this CA3 screen to help:

B1D7069B-8633-4EBD-B76C-382F4F3A47C5.jpeg

Also...look at the regen parameters on the Phaserunner. For now, they likely need to be disabled somehow, I think the defaults use a low throttle voltage as a regen setting.

Do you have a PC and programming cable to plug into the Phaserunner? Without that, this will never work.

Yes in stand and connected to Ttl cable.

I don’t understand looking at that CA screen how to tune the controllers unfortunately....

Oh I need to disable regen? Is that perhaps why the Gmac motor wouldn’t move unless throttled?

I accidentally broke the 5 pin JST connector and two pin speed/thermal connector from Gmac motor to phaserunner. Now waiting on replacement.. I was worried when I saw these jst connectors come in the mail without shrink wrap, will be more careful next time. Alas.
 
BlueSeas said:
Worry about PAS later. And also the system amperage. First step is getting some balance on throttle to forward motivation.

You might need to replace the older controller with a Baserunner/Phaserunner. But we don't know that yet.

Yes for sure. Ya grin gang got back to me and said they’d never heard of doing it with two different motors and different controllers, I’m thinking I’ll get another phaserunner.
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
Ya grin gang got back to me and said they’d never heard of doing it with two different motors and different controllers,
Well, they might not remember it, but they *have* heard of 2WD with totally different motors and controllers, because they certainly know about my CrazyBike2 and SB Cruiser, both of which operate that way. :lol: SBC even operates via PAS, from the CA3. (CB2 operated via independent throttles for each though, and SBC originally operated that way, but has been single-throttle/PAS-for-both for some time now).

But I didn't do anything at all to match the power output of each system to the other, as it wasnt' important for my usage. It probably is, for yours, and that's likely the thing they're really talking about not having heard of.
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
I don’t understand looking at that CA screen how to tune the controllers unfortunately....
If you have only one CA, it only has one throttle output, so it can't tune two separate controller's throttle input voltages. That has to be done in the controllers themselves.

If both controllers don't have their own throttle input "tuning" settings in their setup programs (or if only one has a setup program), then you must first determine the throttle response range of the unchangeable controller. Then you need to setup the other controller's throttle input response range to match the unchangeable one. Then you setup the CA's throttle output to match that range.
 
You can buy a JST connector kit and crimping tool on Amazon. That and the equal kit and crimping tool for Anderson connectors are handy to have. Especially as you start getting eBikes in your repair practice.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07C96PQ4N

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078WPT5M1
 
amberwolf said:
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
I don’t understand looking at that CA screen how to tune the controllers unfortunately....
If you have only one CA, it only has one throttle output, so it can't tune two separate controller's throttle input voltages. That has to be done in the controllers themselves.

If both controllers don't have their own throttle input "tuning" settings in their setup programs (or if only one has a setup program), then you must first determine the throttle response range of the unchangeable controller. Then you need to setup the other controller's throttle input response range to match the unchangeable one. Then you setup the CA's throttle output to match that range.

Amberwolf please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this...I've never built a dual motor setup.

The issue is the Phaserunner is a torque controller, and the Grinfeon is speed based. Control for the motors is provided by a nominal 0-5V signal, with a hall throttle (most all), it's really more like a 1.2-4.5V range. So the throttle generates a signal and passes it to the CA3. Inside the CA3, there are many parameters where this signal can be modified to make the bike operate more smoothly, enforce limitations (speed, battery current, motor temp) and finally to integrate PAS. For discussion, you use the bike throttle to command 10%. So that turns out to be a 1.9V signal. To the Grinfeon, this equates to 10% of max rotation speed. To the PHaserunner, this means 10% of max torque. On the stand, one motor spins at 10%, the other spins at 100%, since 10% of max torque is sufficient to reach max RPM without a load.

The first tuning step is to make both motors start at the same signal level. For now, assuming you were happy with the original programming I would not change the programming of the CA3, except maybe to turn off proportional Ebrake regen if it's ON. And finally, I probably would set the CA3 throttle to PassThru for now. This may likely get set back to current later.

Then find this CA3 display:

505B219E-55CC-4EA3-AA85-20E9BD7D0B83.jpeg

It shows the throttle input and output voltages from the CA3. Note the throttle output voltage where the Grinfeon controller starts to spin the wheel. Note the voltage where the Grinfeon motor reaches maximum speed.

Then using the PC program it's time to program iteration 1 of the Phaserunner configuration to match the Grinfeon. Make sure you've already learned the motor and set the basic parameters for your battery. Then find this screen:

06C75237-6FC8-4101-9B2B-81C5C88B8220.jpeg

Set the brake active range to be lower than the minimum output voltage of the CA3 with the throttle completely off. Set the throttle active range to the voltages noted for the Grinfeon. Most important, while on the stand, make sure the throttle position where the wheels begins to spin is matched exactly, or as close as you can get. Make sure at full throttle both wheels look like they are spinning at their top speed. This full speed is subjective. The wheels won't spin at the same speed. That's OK, but they ought to spin smoothly.

If the Phaserunner is now primary, check the speed readout on the CA3. It's possible that this may need recalibration, the number of magnets pulsing the hall sensor per full rotation is likely different for the GMAC (per Grin it's 6) than the Crystalite. This setting is in the CA3 configuration.

The remainder of the tuning will be based on test rides, and a subjective analysis of how well the motors match up in operation. Here are a few things you can "tune"

1) The upper end of the Phaserunner throttle active range. It could be increased to slow the ramp up of the Phaserunner, or lowered to increase the ramp up. Don't change the low end so both motors start at the same point.
2) Current limit in the Phaserunner battery configuration. And all of the motor limits.
3) Finally after the above are as good as possible, you can go tinker with CA3 settings. Try current throttle mode. Try slowing/speeding the ramp up and ramp down parameters.

Hope this helps! Good luck and let us know.
 
BlueSeas said:
amberwolf said:
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
I don’t understand looking at that CA screen how to tune the controllers unfortunately....
If you have only one CA, it only has one throttle output, so it can't tune two separate controller's throttle input voltages. That has to be done in the controllers themselves.

If both controllers don't have their own throttle input "tuning" settings in their setup programs (or if only one has a setup program), then you must first determine the throttle response range of the unchangeable controller. Then you need to setup the other controller's throttle input response range to match the unchangeable one. Then you setup the CA's throttle output to match that range.

Amberwolf please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this...I've never built a dual motor setup.

The issue is the Phaserunner is a torque controller, and the Grinfeon is speed based. Control for the motors is provided by a nominal 0-5V signal, with a hall throttle (most all), it's really more like a 1.2-4.5V range. So the throttle generates a signal and passes it to the CA3. Inside the CA3, there are many parameters where this signal can be modified to make the bike operate more smoothly, enforce limitations (speed, battery current, motor temp) and finally to integrate PAS. For discussion, you use the bike throttle to command 10%. So that turns out to be a 1.9V signal. To the Grinfeon, this equates to 10% of max rotation speed. To the PHaserunner, this means 10% of max torque. On the stand, one motor spins at 10%, the other spins at 100%, since 10% of max torque is sufficient to reach max RPM without a load.

The first tuning step is to make both motors start at the same signal level. For now, assuming you were happy with the original programming I would not change the programming of the CA3, except maybe to turn off proportional Ebrake regen if it's ON. And finally, I probably would set the CA3 throttle to PassThru for now. This may likely get set back to current later.

Then find this CA3 display:

505B219E-55CC-4EA3-AA85-20E9BD7D0B83.jpeg

It shows the throttle input and output voltages from the CA3. Note the throttle output voltage where the Grinfeon controller starts to spin the wheel. Note the voltage where the Grinfeon motor reaches maximum speed.

Then using the PC program it's time to program iteration 1 of the Phaserunner configuration to match the Grinfeon. Make sure you've already learned the motor and set the basic parameters for your battery. Then find this screen:

06C75237-6FC8-4101-9B2B-81C5C88B8220.jpeg

Set the brake active range to be lower than the minimum output voltage of the CA3 with the throttle completely off. Set the throttle active range to the voltages noted for the Grinfeon. Most important, while on the stand, make sure the throttle position where the wheels begins to spin is matched exactly, or as close as you can get. Make sure at full throttle both wheels look like they are spinning at their top speed. This full speed is subjective. The wheels won't spin at the same speed. That's OK, but they ought to spin smoothly.

If the Phaserunner is now primary, check the speed readout on the CA3. It's possible that this may need recalibration, the number of magnets pulsing the hall sensor per full rotation is likely different for the GMAC (per Grin it's 6) than the Crystalite. This setting is in the CA3 configuration.

The remainder of the tuning will be based on test rides, and a subjective analysis of how well the motors match up in operation. Here are a few things you can "tune"

1) The upper end of the Phaserunner throttle active range. It could be increased to slow the ramp up of the Phaserunner, or lowered to increase the ramp up. Don't change the low end so both motors start at the same point.
2) Current limit in the Phaserunner battery configuration. And all of the motor limits.
3) Finally after the above are as good as possible, you can go tinker with CA3 settings. Try current throttle mode. Try slowing/speeding the ramp up and ramp down parameters.

Hope this helps! Good luck and let us know.

Hey yes will absolutely look a few times to your words thank you soo much!

AmberWolf helped me realize I should really check first and learn to understand the Grin Motor simulator to make sure this dual motor idea is a good one at all! And yes still unsure if I should be using two phaserunner IF it’s even a good idea to make it better. So I’m trying to understand motor simulator presently. I naively assumed the Gmac added on would be good and bought it...and now see that potential naïveté. Is it possible to post motor simulator pictures here?
 
BlueSeas said:
You can buy a JST connector kit and crimping tool on Amazon. That and the equal kit and crimping tool for Anderson connectors are handy to have. Especially as you start getting eBikes in your repair practice.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07C96PQ4N

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078WPT5M1

Thanks just bought some supplies!
 
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