PAS Levels Not Working

E-Simon

1 mW
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
Messages
19
Hi folks.
I'm new to this group and, while I've been happily riding e-bikes for nearly 10 years, I have to admit that I have close to zero understanding of exactly how the electronics of them work, so I do beg your patience with me. I should also mention that I'm in New Zealand, because it will help provide some context to the rest of this post.

I recently had the opportunity to purchase a "new" Pedego Interceptor Platinum for $NZ1300 (around $US840).These models retail in the US for over $5000. The catch was that the bike was missing certain key components - in particular, the battery (and casing) and the LCD display. As there is no longer a New Zealand distributor for Pedego bikes, there is also no local support for them, so I knew this was going to be a bit of a gamble.

The battery needed to be 48v and ideally have the same casing and mount as the is standard on these bikes. I managed to purchase a 36v version, at a discount price, off the company who used to be the importers and had a local battery guru re-pack it as 48v. Pedego support in the States sold me an LCD display which arrived a month or so ago.

So I installed the battery and display and took it for a test ride. The throttle works perfectly. Of the 5 PAS levels, 1 works exactly as I'd expect in terms of the assist level. 5 also works as I'd expect for a 48v 500watt bike - almost like a turbo-charger. Haha. BUT, levels 2, 3 and 4 all offer exactly the same level of assist as level 1. So, other than using the throttle, I get to go either really slowly or utterly flat out. Not ideal.

When I contacted Pedego Support about this, they were very apologetic and said they had sent me the wrong LCD display (for the standard Interceptor rather than the Platinum version) and they sent me a replacement. This replacement arrived last week and guess what? Yep... I still have the same problem. (The display is a Bigstone C500B in both cases, so I suspect any differences must be in the way they've been programmed).

Now I'm a bit concerned that this might be the sort of problem that might require an expert, with the right kind of testing equipment, rather than something that might be sorted out via a few emails back and forth between me and Pedego Support. But then I came across this group and wondered if anyone here might have any ideas of things I could try (or have a local e-bike tech try for me).

I do know that when the battery was re-packed as 48v, the circuit responsible for showing the charge level on the battery case wasn't changed, so this will show the battery as charged even when it's actually quite low (as shown on the LCD display) and I can't help but wonder if this could have anything to do with the issue.

Anyway, thanks if you've taken the time to read this rather long post. And thanks in advance if you have any helpful advice that wouldn't require me to have a degree in electrical engineering to understand. :)
 
Not sure if this will help as I don't own this bike, but looking through the Pedego manual https://pedegoelectricbikes.com/wp-...9/Pedego-Master-Manual-V5-07.30.20-Update.pdf it's quite interesting that PAS levels 1 through 4 are noted to operate from a torque sensor, whereas level 5 seems to be max out cadence mode. Control from torque sensing will be very different to the usual "accelerate to a certain speed once the pedals are turning" cadence mode. So you might only notice differences in those first levels when you're actively pushing more power into the pedals. Have you tried changing the PAS level when you're riding up a hill? If the assistance provided in those levels is based off pedal torque then you might only notice the changes in a situation like that.

Saying all that there are some options the manual notes that can be changed on the display, without much info what they actually do I might add, but sound like they could adjust this behaviour. They are "SET 5 - Pedal Assist Limiter On/Off" and "SET 7 - Torque Sensor - On/Off". Perhaps turning off the torque sensor would take the bike back to a PAS style you might like better than it's current behaviour? Page 54 in the manual. Would be worth exploring what happens when you change these settings, I'd try all four options.

Can't be absolutely sure but I very much doubt that the meter built into the battery has anything to do with this issue. Would normally be a completely independent volt-meter directly across the battery, with no communications to the display or controller, so no way to influence the PAS behaviour.
 
Hi Blacklite.

You raise a few good points there. I now recall having seen that about the torque mode in the manual some time back and wasn't sure what the implications were, but it would make sense that there could be some kind of connection. (RTFM, eh? ;) ) As I'm an amputee, I can't stand on the pedals to really apply force to fully test your theory, but I just turned off the torque option on SET 7 and took it for a ride, and I'm afraid it seemed to make no difference. SET 5 seemed to make no difference whether it was on or off, but then I went back to the manual and it says, "For “SET 5” and “SET 6,” turn each respective function to off to lower
the top speed." and I'm guessing that's referring to the speed allocated by SET2.

I hear you about the battery meter. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but I'm just trying to go through a process of elimination.

Your thoughts now have me wondering why changing SET7 made no difference.

Thanks for your ideas and help. I'll update on here if I make any further progress.

Cheers.
 
E-Simon said:
Pedego support in the States sold me an LCD display which arrived a month or so ago.
<snip>
When I contacted Pedego Support about this, they were very apologetic and said they had sent me the wrong LCD display (for the standard Interceptor rather than the Platinum version) and they sent me a replacement. This replacement arrived last week and guess what? Yep... I still have the same problem. (The display is a Bigstone C500B in both cases, so I suspect any differences must be in the way they've been programmed).

Observations. If Pedego Support thought the issue was because they sent the wrong version of the Bigstone display, that might indicate that the behavior is progammed into the display. The standard Interceptor has the behavior you prefer; no assist at level 0, cadence assist 1 through 5, throttle only 6. Perhaps they sent you the right display in the first place, but you just don't prefer the Platinum's behavior, using torque assist for 1 through 4.

Since the standard has the behaviour you prefer, maybe you could try to see if they'd swap the display out again for the standard. The worst case would be you'd be back where you're at now. The Pedego website states the Platinum has both types of sensors, so if the display tells it to use cadence for 1 through 5, maybe it will. This is all predicated on the theory that the programming follows the display, but Pedego seems to sort of have acknowledged that.
 
One common thing that can cause this problem is if the controller can't receive the data from the display; the "RX" line on the cable from display to controller could have a problem. On the lower-end Pedegos I've worked on, the controller is in the battery mounting on the rear rack, and has an extension cable from inside that, thru the frame, up to near the front of the bike, where the cable from the display then plugs into it.

The plugs on the extension cable at each end on these were the Higo / Julet waterproof type, so as long as they are firmly and completely plugged in, which can be a bit difficult to do, tehy don't usually have a problem. But the display might not be fully plugged in; it could make contact with certain pins and not others, so I would check that first.

There could be a connection problem at the controller end, that uses JSTs in the ones I've worked on, inside the battery mounting housing. (not inside the battery itself).

The extension itself could have a broken wire inside it; this would be most likely where it flexes at the front where it comes out of the frame and goes up the handlebars.



Another possible issue; if the display is not the correct one for the controller and/or does not have the right programming for that specific controller version, it's possible that it isn't able to communicate with the controller, or that it does not have the same "options" as the controller does, so the settings it has don't correspond to the same ones in the controller. So when it tells the controller to use option 7 from menu K, but the controller was expecting it to ask for option 2 from menu B, the controller doesn't understand and ignores it. (not exactly what happens, but gets the idea across). The controller knows what to do if the display was telling it in a way it could understand, or was picking an option the controller actually has.


When this type of mismatch (or connection fault) happens, it's the same as running the controller without a display at all, so it only operates in it's default assist level; that's probably why it is only working in level 1 PAS rather than being able to change levels.


Also, the hardware and firmware can be different for different model years of bikes, so the could be sending you the correct display for that model bike, but for the wrong year, and it might not work.
 
The battery meter on the battery case doens't affect the bike operation, and can be replaced if you prefer, though it might be a bit of DIY to change it out. There are numerous types available from various places.

Do you happen to know what your actual meter inside the case looks like? If not, a pic of the case where the lights show on the outside, along with a ruler for scale, might let us find one that could replace it with the correct spacing of lights. I don't know if it would fit inside; that's something that would require peeking in there to find more specifics.
 
E-HP said:
Since the standard has the behaviour you prefer, maybe you could try to see if they'd swap the display out again for the standard. The worst case would be you'd be back where you're at now. The Pedego website states the Platinum has both types of sensors, so if the display tells it to use cadence for 1 through 5, maybe it will. This is all predicated on the theory that the programming follows the display, but Pedego seems to sort of have acknowledged that.

Hi E-HP.
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions, but I feel maybe I didn't explain clearly enough in my original post. The first LCD I was sent (the one you refer to as "standard") exhibited exactly the same behaviour as the second.
 
Thanks for your long and in-depth response, Amberwolf. There's a lot to consider in it.I'm not clear as to what the RX line is or where I might find it. I'm also not certain about the connectors, but I am attaching a photo of the one that goes to the display.

I'm pretty certain the controller is where you described it - in or below the battery housing. I haven't yet had the courage to attempt to get in there and have a look, and I'm not sure what I'd be able to achieve if I did. I guess I could at least check the wires and connections in there though. What are these "JSTs"?

I'm particularly interested in your comments about the controller version. I'm assuming you're talking of firmware, rather than hardware, versions, so even if I was able to get in an look at the controller I don't know how I could find out what version it is.

However, your thoughts about it possibly being different for different years has possibly given me something to go back to Pedego with. The New Zealand distributors stopped importing Pedego in 2018, so it would seem that this bike must be at least 4 years old. It seems very possible indeed that there would have been changes over that time.

Again, I really appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

Cheers

Simon
 

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amberwolf said:
The battery meter on the battery case doens't affect the bike operation, and can be replaced if you prefer, though it might be a bit of DIY to change it out. There are numerous types available from various places.

At this stage, I must admit that the meter on the case is the least of my concerns (the one on the display seems to work OK) but I thanks for your ideas here. If and when I manage to get this other issue sorted I might just take you up on your offer :)
 
E-Simon said:
I'm not clear as to what the RX line is or where I might find it.
It's one of the two data lines between the display and the controller. There are 5 wires total: Battery power to the display, Ground, Keyswitch/Ignition back to controller (no voltage when display turns system off, battery voltage when it is on), RX and TX. (which is RX and which TX depends on which end of the wire you're on; RX is receive data, and TX is transmit data, so if you're at the display, RX and TX are differently labelled than if at teh controller).


I'm also not certain about the connectors, but I am attaching a photo of the one that goes to the display.
Looks typical of this type; though it appears to screw togehter rather than just snap together, which is both more secure and easier to plug together than the snap type. (the snap type will probably still plug into it, if necessary, it just won't have the screw-together clasp.


I'm pretty certain the controller is where you described it - in or below the battery housing. I haven't yet had the courage to attempt to get in there and have a look, and I'm not sure what I'd be able to achieve if I did. I guess I could at least check the wires and connections in there though. What are these "JSTs"?
The JSTs (really, JST-SM) look like these:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jst-sm+connectors&tbm=isch
It might use other connector types, and it might even actually use the waterproof Higo / Julet types like the display end does, but since they're inside a compartment they probably are not, and use the same as others I've seen.

Anyway, you'll find that the extension cable either directly splits into several connectors to plug into the controller, or that it plugs into another cable that then does split.

You're looking for a 5-pin connector, either like the 5-pin JST-SM (etc) or like the one at the display end. That is the display-controller connection, and it is possible that at either end or anywhere in between the wire from controller to display is damaged, loose, or broken. Not likley, but possible.

It's more likely that there is a difference in the firmware between the year yours was made and the year(s) the displays they sent were made.

It is also possible that there is something wrong with the controller itself , such that it can't receive data from the controller; this can happen when something damages the display (water intrusion, physical crash damage, etc, none of which you'd know about because you didn't get the display that had been on it), by shorting the battery voltage to the data line(s)...which is a Very Bad Thing. ;)

(note that it is relatively trivial to prevent such damage, by designing with protections against that at the MCU/etc, or simply never put battery voltage anywhere near logic-level voltage stuff, and NEVER in the same cable, but none of these devices ever get that level of design care).


I'm particularly interested in your comments about the controller version. I'm assuming you're talking of firmware, rather than hardware, versions, so even if I was able to get in an look at the controller I don't know how I could find out what version it is.
There's probably no way for you to tell; there are likely numbers on external labels but they probably only mean something to Pedego or possibly only to whoever made their bikes and controllers for them (they just sell bikes). But I doubt that Pedego has charts that say which versions of which parts go with which other versions...it's very likely that they do not keep any stocks of older parts to fix things with, because they'd rather sell you a new bike. (they probably don't even keep enough parts to fix all warranty issues, and end up replacing some bikes because parts to fix them aren't available, if they're like many other companies).

The controllers I've seen are all potted, so you can't open them up to check things either.

There is very likely dealer-level or factory-level software and hardware that can talk to the controller/etc and read out information and program settings, but I doubt you can get access ot it, if it does exist. (the pedego repair shops in my general area do not have any access to such, and only replace whole modules, without even troubleshooting very far).


Regarding compatibility, there are hundreds (thousands? more?) of different controller/display sets out there of various brands and models. You may see a particular brand and model of display with a particular controller, then find another that looks the same and seems to be the same model of each...but they don't work together when swapping displays between them. They'll operate, but some settings, or modes, etc., may not be available when swapped, on one or both systems. Some *will* swap and work fine, because everything between them is really the same, even if they have different "brands" on them.

I have some Kingmeter displays and LiShui controllers (IIRC) that came as sets from different sources, and while they plug into each other and do turn on and display the right basic info, some fucntions don't operate when swapped, that do when correctly paired. The hardware between the two sets appears to be the same, but the firmware must be different, and there are many reasons, programmatically, why the one might not work with the other.
 
amberwolf said:
E-Simon said:
I'm not clear as to what the RX line is or where I might find it.
It's one of the two data lines between the display and the controller. There are 5 wires total: Battery power to the display, Ground, Keyswitch/Ignition back to controller (no voltage when display turns system off, battery voltage when it is on), RX and TX. (which is RX and which TX depends on which end of the wire you're on; RX is receive data, and TX is transmit data, so if you're at the display, RX and TX are differently labelled than if at teh controller).

Worth pointing out that according to the website Pedego bikes use CANBUS communications between display and controller. CANBUS doesn’t have RX and TX lines…
 
E-Simon said:
E-HP said:
Since the standard has the behaviour you prefer, maybe you could try to see if they'd swap the display out again for the standard. The worst case would be you'd be back where you're at now. The Pedego website states the Platinum has both types of sensors, so if the display tells it to use cadence for 1 through 5, maybe it will. This is all predicated on the theory that the programming follows the display, but Pedego seems to sort of have acknowledged that.

Hi E-HP.
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions, but I feel maybe I didn't explain clearly enough in my original post. The first LCD I was sent (the one you refer to as "standard") exhibited exactly the same behaviour as the second.

How do you know they sent you the standard the first time? (was that on the packing slip, or on the packaging and documenation?) Was it something they deduced, when you told them about the problem? If the latter, and it exhibits the exact same behavior as the first one, then maybe they sent you the Platinum both times.

I guess the question is, did you have to rattle off a part number when you got a hold of them? Or did they say "ya, we probably sent you the wrong one, send it back and we'll send you the Platinum for sure this time."
 
amberwolf said:
There is very likely dealer-level or factory-level software and hardware that can talk to the controller/etc and read out information and program settings, but I doubt you can get access to it, if it does exist. (the pedego repair shops in my general area do not have any access to such, and only replace whole modules, without even troubleshooting very far).

Regarding compatibility, there are hundreds (thousands? more?) of different controller/display sets out there of various brands and models. You may see a particular brand and model of display with a particular controller, then find another that looks the same and seems to be the same model of each...but they don't work together when swapping displays between them. They'll operate, but some settings, or modes, etc., may not be available when swapped, on one or both systems. Some *will* swap and work fine, because everything between them is really the same, even if they have different "brands" on them.

Yes, I have come to realise that few, if any, e-bike maintenance people have access to the kinds of software/hardware used to test and/or program these kinds of things. I've toyed with the idea of buying a new C55B LCD Display direct from China, but they custom program these before sending and I'm not confident that I'd be able to provide them with the right information for this.

My understanding is that controllers need to be matched to motors. Is this true, or can any kind of controller be used with any motor of the same voltage?
 
Blacklite said:
Worth pointing out that according to the website Pedego bikes use CANBUS communications between display and controller. CANBUS doesn’t have RX and TX lines…

Ah. I wonder if they always used it for all versions of their stuff--if they didn't, and the one the OP has uses another method, but the parts they're sending use CANBUS, it would also result in no communications between controller and display.


(and if the controller on this specific bike was replaced (by previous owner, etc) with a non-Pedego controller, it also wouldn't talk to the display, etc. And might not read the torque sensor (may only read the regular PAS).
 
amberwolf said:
Ah. I wonder if they always used it for all versions of their stuff--if they didn't, and the one the OP has uses another method, but the parts they're sending use CANBUS, it would also result in no communications between controller and display.

True - though I would think that if it there was absolutely no communication between display (completely incompatible electrically and/or data protocol) there wouldn’t be any change between PAS1 and PAS5 settings…

My money is on a firmware version difference.
 
E-HP said:
How do you know they sent you the standard the first time? (was that on the packing slip, or on the packaging and documenation?)

Yes, the part number was different on the packing slips and invoices. That doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't have made a mistake, of course. It is the same physical device, after all, with just different firmware options, but I would have thought it'd have to be a pretty unlikely coincident.
 
amberwolf said:
Ah. I wonder if they always used it for all versions of their stuff--if they didn't, and the one the OP has uses another method, but the parts they're sending use CANBUS, it would also result in no communications between controller and display.

(and if the controller on this specific bike was replaced (by previous owner, etc) with a non-Pedego controller, it also wouldn't talk to the display, etc. And might not read the torque sensor (may only read the regular PAS).

Yes, according to their website, this model does employ CANBUS comms on this model (and, perhaps, on others). It's not clear if they've always done this, but it would seem likely.

With regard your second observation, I would point out that the bike was essentially "new" when I bought it. It was left-over stock that the previous distributor still had hanging around and that they had used for a couple of spare parts (hence the missing components when I bought it).

How much difference might their use of CANBUS make to the problems I'm experiencing?
 
E-Simon said:
How much difference might their use of CANBUS make to the problems I'm experiencing?

CANBUS itself shouldn’t make any difference. It’s just a way for the display to communicate with the controller… I’m used to bikes that use single-ended serial across a send and receive line (think serial like a COM port @ 8N1 for those old enough to remember, but at TTL levels not RS233 levels), but using CAN should just be a drop in replacement. In theory as a differential line CAN is a superior in terms of noise, but as long as every component is talking the same protocol it shouldn’t be the cause of your problem.
 
Blacklite said:
In theory as a differential line CAN is a superior in terms of noise, but as long as every component is talking the same protocol it shouldn’t be the cause of your problem.

Cheers for that. :) Any suggestions as to where I go from here?
 
E-Simon said:
Blacklite said:
In theory as a differential line CAN is a superior in terms of noise, but as long as every component is talking the same protocol it shouldn’t be the cause of your problem.

Cheers for that. :) Any suggestions as to where I go from here?

Not clear on where you want to go from here. It seems like the bike is functioning as designed, so I guess you could have someone else ride it and test that the assist increases as expected when applying pressure on the pedals and increasing the assist level settings. But that would only confirm it's working, but not help with your situation where you can't apply the necessary pedaling input.
 
E-HP said:
It seems like the bike is functioning as designed, so I guess you could have someone else ride it and test that the assist increases as expected when applying pressure on the pedals and increasing the assist level settings.
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression there. The bike is not functioning as designed. If I turn off the torque function (which should then default to cadence PAS) it changes nothing. The first 4 levels of PAS still offer exactly the same amount of assist, which is about what I would expect from level 1.
 
E-HP said:
Not clear on where you want to go from here. It seems like the bike is functioning as designed, so I guess you could have someone else ride it and test that the assist increases as expected when applying pressure on the pedals and increasing the assist level settings. But that would only confirm it's working, but not help with your situation where you can't apply the necessary pedaling input.

I owe you an apology. You were absolutely right. I had a friend - someone with two good legs and who rides a bike with only torque sensors - take it for a few trial rides today. The results confirmed exactly what you said. It performs much like his own bike in torque sensor mode. I guess the cadence sensors on my previous two bikes had cushioned me from reality a bit. :-(

Having said that, if I turn off TS mode it should (as I understand it) revert to cadence sensing, and this isn't happening. It seems to respond in exactly the same way as TS mode (and my friend confirmed this impression). If I could get it working in cadence mode (or more sensitive torque sensing mode) I'd be quite happy.
 
What does it do if you disconnect the torque sensor part of the PAS sensor? (some will error out and not work, some may just operate in cadence mode as a fallback; I don't know what this one will do).

Note that it might require cutting at least one wire to do this, as the torque sensor may not have a separate connector to unplug. :(

Note also that it might not change the way it operates...it may not be designed to operate from cadence-only any differently.
 
amberwolf said:
What does it do if you disconnect the torque sensor part of the PAS sensor? (some will error out and not work, some may just operate in cadence mode as a fallback; I don't know what this one will do).

Note that it might require cutting at least one wire to do this, as the torque sensor may not have a separate connector to unplug. :(

Note also that it might not change the way it operates...it may not be designed to operate from cadence-only any differently.

I don't really want to start cutting wires, as it could be a very difficult thing to undo. I have thought about disconnecting the cable at the torque sensor end though. Do you think that might be worth trying?
 
If the torque sensor is separate from the "cadence" sensor, it's worth a try. If both of them are on the same connector, then unplugging it means you get no pedal control of the motor system at all (just your mechanical input to the system as pedal power).
 
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