120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Get all your technical information about electric bikes here.
User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7437
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 10 2009 6:47pm

Does anyone tried it?

I tried it ad it seems working on no load motor.. :shock: :twisted:

100% throttle REALLY increase to 120% !!! with the new setting :mrgreen: .. I wonder if it's a bit like the delta mode...?.. more speed but less torque and more current draw !!


See the thread where i talk about that: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47#p182347

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

swbluto   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9532
Joined: May 30 2008 5:23pm
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by swbluto » Aug 10 2009 7:32pm

So is it doing a voltage boost (Motor voltage > battery voltage) or is the "100% throttle" setting not really 100% (where motor voltage = battery voltage, in the not-current-limited region) and you just made it closer to 100%?

Just to confirm, you noticed the no-load RPM increase by 20%?

icecube57   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr 25 2008 8:42am
Location: Austell GA
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by icecube57 » Aug 10 2009 9:00pm

It works great for me it adds about 7-10 mph to the freewheel speed but only a 3-5mph actual speed boost. Seems to be a slight reduction in torque also. It will increase your top speed but it takes a furkin while to get there. There is no reduction in Amps. I think it just advances the time like in an engine. A sneaky way to do field reduction to boost speed.

Works at 84 and 96v with me. No ill effects except for the boost. When you ramp the throttle it turns and sounds normal then you get past like the 50-75% mark and there is like a turbo boost that kicks in.

The phase angle and hall sensor must support it. I think in the steveo controllers he mentioned to me about having the type 41 hall sensors which the X5 dont have but dont hold me to that info. I suppose it will works for DOC and his motor.

He needs to go out and try to set another record at 120%.

User avatar
liveforphysics   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14134
Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 10 2009 9:26pm

Motor timing effects KV.

Advance motor timing, and KV goes up. It enables a motor which was at BEMF equilibrium to continue to draw current by charging the coil sooner, before the point at which the BEMF the motor is generating prevents it from drawing additional current.

You trade efficiency in exchange for additional RPMs. It's a great thing to have if you are trying to break records.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7437
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 10 2009 10:14pm

I agree. My past record ( 94.4 kph was done at 75% speed limited by the bad setting in the controller ...

lol! I just can't imagine at 120% :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Guys.. I really plan to set another record in few weeks ( when i'll have time!)

My drag setup is still sleeping in the garage and is ready to go! :twisted: .. but i'll need to change the controller parameters!

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

User avatar
liveforphysics   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14134
Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 10 2009 10:26pm

Good Doc, we are all looking forward to it.

I re-geared from 8 tooth motor sprockets to 10 tooth motor sprockets, and my bike easily holds 64mph (by GPS) now, and it's still gearing limited rather than power limited. When I get time, I will step it up to 13tooth sprockets, but for now, 64mph is the time to beat if you want to be the fastest on this board. :)
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7437
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 10 2009 10:53pm

liveforphysics wrote:Good Doc, we are all looking forward to it.

I re-geared from 8 tooth motor sprockets to 10 tooth motor sprockets, and my bike easily holds 64mph (by GPS) now, and it's still gearing limited rather than power limited. When I get time, I will step it up to 13tooth sprockets, but for now, 64mph is the time to beat if you want to be the fastest on this board. :)
:wink: That's perfect!.. it's what I need to push me doing better and better! :mrgreen:

that would be nice to drag race together! and with Steveo and Methods and Hal9000!!

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14323
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by John in CR » Aug 11 2009 12:31am

liveforphysics wrote:Good Doc, we are all looking forward to it.

I re-geared from 8 tooth motor sprockets to 10 tooth motor sprockets, and my bike easily holds 64mph (by GPS) now, and it's still gearing limited rather than power limited. When I get time, I will step it up to 13tooth sprockets, but for now, 64mph is the time to beat if you want to be the fastest on this board. :)
Luke,

You're quietly leading the pack, and it's great that you couldn't give 2 shits about recognition. Of all the bikes on the board yours is the one I'd most like to cut up on. Too bad about the damn lithium shipping restrictions. I'm quietly waiting till you get something you're totally happy with so I can copy it and build 2. Then I can tear up some ground with a friend, and you'd have one to give me hard riding lessons with when you come down. In the meantime, I'm having fun just settling for errand running bikes.

Keep setting that bar higher for us followers. Then when batteries come around, we can all build high performance machines with useful range to boot.

John

JS Tyro   100 W

100 W
Posts: 102
Joined: May 21 2009 12:37am

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by JS Tyro » Aug 11 2009 4:24pm

liveforphysics wrote:Motor timing effects KV. [...]You trade efficiency in exchange for additional RPMs. It's a great thing to have if you are trying to break records.
From my slot car racing days (looong ago), retarding the timing has the opposite effect - it sacrifices RPM for more torque. How you wired the car's motor depended on whether you were more interested in drag racing (torque) or long track races (RPM). Of course there are limits to what adjusting the timing will do, so don't mess with this until you've resolved other possible speed/torque optimizations.

User avatar
liveforphysics   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14134
Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 11 2009 5:30pm

John in CR wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:Good Doc, we are all looking forward to it.

I re-geared from 8 tooth motor sprockets to 10 tooth motor sprockets, and my bike easily holds 64mph (by GPS) now, and it's still gearing limited rather than power limited. When I get time, I will step it up to 13tooth sprockets, but for now, 64mph is the time to beat if you want to be the fastest on this board. :)
Luke,

You're quietly leading the pack, and it's great that you couldn't give 2 shits about recognition. Of all the bikes on the board yours is the one I'd most like to cut up on. Too bad about the damn lithium shipping restrictions. I'm quietly waiting till you get something you're totally happy with so I can copy it and build 2. Then I can tear up some ground with a friend, and you'd have one to give me hard riding lessons with when you come down. In the meantime, I'm having fun just settling for errand running bikes.

Keep setting that bar higher for us followers. Then when batteries come around, we can all build high performance machines with useful range to boot.

John

Thank you kindly John! That was one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me. Totally buying your family the nicest dinner ever when I come down to visit :)





JS Tyro wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:Motor timing effects KV. [...]You trade efficiency in exchange for additional RPMs. It's a great thing to have if you are trying to break records.
From my slot car racing days (looong ago), retarding the timing has the opposite effect - it sacrifices RPM for more torque. How you wired the car's motor depended on whether you were more interested in drag racing (torque) or long track races (RPM). Of course there are limits to what adjusting the timing will do, so don't mess with this until you've resolved other possible speed/torque optimizations.

That's the beauty of the switch. Have your low speed operation switch optimized for lower RPM acceleration, then once you reach the point BEMF balances your pack voltage, then flip to high speed settings on the switch, and continue to accelerate beyond your neutral timing KV point.

IMO- Just like with a car engine timing, it should all be setup to advance automatically as RPMs increase, so you always can hold optimal acceleration. Or, have a economy switch, and have it always hold timing at the point of best economy. It only would require a simple look-up table with maybe 8 columns for throttle input value, and 8 columns for RPM values, and then it could check the intersection point on the table and use the value in the box for it's timing value. The user could tune the values to dial things in for there particular motor. Even the most basic of DIY automotive spark advance controllers have this sort of basic look-up table function. No reason our controllers should not be having it as well.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

User avatar
12p3phPMDC   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 462
Joined: Mar 16 2009 9:00pm

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by 12p3phPMDC » Aug 11 2009 7:45pm

Luke,

You brought up a good point in regards to the timing tables of ICE controllers...

IMHO, It is an excellent suggestion for motor controllers. It would allow you to run a neutral timing reference
on the halls and program advance/retard for the motor when wanted or needed. Then you could
also run the motor in reverse and not worry about the mechanical advance being wrong for that direction.

I've setup two different controllers on three ICE sport bike engines along with the custom intakes and exhausts , a TEC3 from electromotive, and two PE controllers from Performance electronics.
Both controllers had real time feedback of the timing tables showing operating point RPM vs load (vacuum or TPS).
You could tweak the degrees of advance in real time and then save it if the engine liked the results.

If you didn't have the timing table capability in these controllers....well hell....I don't know what you would do...
go back to vacuum (load) and speed advance on the distributor... But there is a huge amount
of power lost if the timing isn't right.... The engines would suck if they didn't have advance capability.
A Dyno or realtime track tweaking was the only way to dial them in.

I don't have enough experience with the BLDCs yet, to say, but if a controller has a feature like this, I would buy it to
explore the option.
"If you don't follow your dreams, you might as well be a vegetable." Burt Munro

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14323
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by John in CR » Aug 11 2009 8:10pm

I agree with Luke. They missed the mark with these new 3 speed controllers. Instead of slow/mid/fast , there should be just a performance/economy settings. I want max torque for acceleration or the lower speeds up hills, and max speed at the top end. Since it's just programming, it should be a matter of relative simplicity.

John

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7437
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 11 2009 11:06pm

And... Alot of people Still think that this switch is for current limiting... :roll: ... There is absolutly no mather of current control with this switch!..

And guess What.. on the crystalyte website.. they also mention "current limiting" switch! :roll:

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

icecube57   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr 25 2008 8:42am
Location: Austell GA
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by icecube57 » Aug 13 2009 10:11pm

I noticed that myself after I started programing and testing it. The speed modes are useful to an extent. It can help you simulate a cruise control without feathering the throttle. Just go to wide open and it limits it to whatever you set it. Its easier on the wrist too. I find my self in economy mode alot more that using regular or timing advance. 20mph is a nice cruising speed. No over heating. The performance on demand is still there at the flip of the switch. The only current limiting Ive seen is in the speed limiting mode. It only provides enough current to maintain the speed. In my case 20mph. I rarely see it peak above 15-20A during acceleration an it cruises at 5-8A to maintain my set 20 mph. All other speed modes just simulate a throttle position and doesnt affect the avaliable amps/torque. So if you have speed 2 set to simulate 60% throttle is going to prob pull the full limit of the controller. But the speed will be limited or simlulated to a 60% throttle positionn even if you have the throttle twisted to WOT.

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14323
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by John in CR » Aug 14 2009 10:32am

Any chance of getting good estimates of the % change in torque and speed between the torquiest and speediest settings. The Delta/Y thing didn't seem to have worked for an effective form of "electrical gearing", but this one seems viable. I'm trying to understand how significant is the effect.

John

User avatar
vanilla ice   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2778
Joined: Sep 05 2007 9:15pm
Location: socal dude

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by vanilla ice » Aug 14 2009 12:27pm

Chalk yet another advantage up for brushless motors.. having that timing map setup based on throttle/rpm like a car ecu would be sweet!

woobins   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Jul 25 2009 1:08am

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by woobins » Aug 14 2009 3:27pm

So I took the idea from mwkeefer to hex edit higher top speed values into the parameter designer and uhh.... It actually works. I'm using the stock e-bikekit 9fet infineon controller and 9c motor with a 48v 12ah SLA pack. Mwkeefer said his motor started acting squirrelly at 150% but mine, so far, is running fine at 150 and I'm tempted to keep pushing it further. I really want to see how high this can go but I'm scared. Somebody hold me.

User avatar
vanilla ice   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2778
Joined: Sep 05 2007 9:15pm
Location: socal dude

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by vanilla ice » Aug 14 2009 3:53pm

*Holds woobins*

stator   1 W

1 W
Posts: 54
Joined: Jun 29 2009 12:17pm
Location: San Jose, CA, USA

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by stator » Aug 14 2009 5:43pm

I looked at the PWM duty cycle (DX pad on the edge of the 18 FET board) between 100% and 120%. Both go to 100% duty cycle. In the 120% mode, if you slowly advance the throttle above 100% duty cycle, there is a noticeable "kick" where the timing advances. So it seems like the low speed torque would be the same for 100% or 120%, but the 120% setting has more speed range and less throttle resolution.

--Bill

icecube57   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr 25 2008 8:42am
Location: Austell GA
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by icecube57 » Aug 14 2009 6:09pm

To me the torque stays the same all the way through the curve but when you feel that jolt where it starts advancing the timing it seems like there is acceleration but it slowly climbs to top speed. Like there is a loss of torque. That advance timing is a form of field weaking to allow the motor to run faster and draw more amps but the theory is contradictory to what I feel on the bike. It still draws the same amount of amps when timing advance kicks in but speed climbs a little slow.

stator   1 W

1 W
Posts: 54
Joined: Jun 29 2009 12:17pm
Location: San Jose, CA, USA

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by stator » Aug 14 2009 6:40pm

I can see why it would act that way. The timing advance is a step function. It doesn't gradually advance the timing. Once it kicks in, more throttle doesn't produce more speed.

icecube57   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr 25 2008 8:42am
Location: Austell GA
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by icecube57 » Aug 14 2009 7:07pm

When you freewheel the bike at the 90-95% range you can feel it kick up and kick down as you move the throttle back and forth. IT makes me wonder if its an active advance that changes as you accelerate or is it a set timing. I want a copy of this hex edited program to test mines at 150%.

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7437
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 14 2009 10:00pm

Great development here guys!!.. that's great!..

Maybe I should remind that the delta Star is still a great option but you need a stator that have tooth aligned parallel to the axel and (that have no angle.. like the crystalyte)...
9c motor work fine with Delta

Hmmm :twisted: I wouder what would be the feeling with delta and 150% advance timing!.. maybe too high current demand problem may occur.. or the torque too much decreased and bypass the acceleration potential...

Let's do a video showing that timing advance live action !.. just like many of us did for the delta/Wye !

remember that great classic IMPRESSIVE video?.. the sound of electric motor that is awsome!

Great Souvenir!


Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

stator   1 W

1 W
Posts: 54
Joined: Jun 29 2009 12:17pm
Location: San Jose, CA, USA

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by stator » Aug 15 2009 1:08am

I think there is still room for more timing advance. I've noticed that the motor (9C) will spin faster in reverse (by changing the phase wires) than even the 120% forward setting. The torque is much lower. I assume this is due to the timing built into the motor, but maybe it is something else. I'm running the motor without a wheel. Too bad the timing doesn't advance smoothly.

woobins   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Jul 25 2009 1:08am

Re: 120% speed advanced timing on the controller programming

Post by woobins » Aug 15 2009 2:50am

icecube57 wrote:When you freewheel the bike at the 90-95% range you can feel it kick up and kick down as you move the throttle back and forth. IT makes me wonder if its an active advance that changes as you accelerate or is it a set timing. I want a copy of this hex edited program to test mines at 150%.
ftp://82.146.52.163/ES%20Parameter%20Designer.exe

Here's a modified Parameter Designer binary that lets you bump up the speed modes as suggested by mwkeefer (I'd link the post but it's late and I'm tired and don't want to go hunting). This binary will let you up the 1-3 speeds in the parameter designer from 99 to 200 in increments of 25. Originally I was thinking this made a difference but it's all so subjective -- these speed differences could've been due to varying charge levels of my SLA battery pack. I have been building, not testing, and haven't had much of a chance to objectively test anything yet. Let us know if these higher values actually do anything!

Post Reply