Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

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torker   1 MW

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Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by torker » Nov 28 2009 2:10pm

Does anyone know how fast the 6*10 winding 9C that Jason sells will run at 48 V 26 "? I want to build a mt bike for dirt roads and I want 15 mph and lots of torque. Maybe Jason will chime in or I could email him and see if he has any on the road yet..Anybody running this winding yet?
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by torker » Nov 28 2009 10:57pm

Bump- Anybody running this winding yet?
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by El_Steak » Nov 29 2009 2:46pm

According to what I could find here the top speed of a 9c @ 48 volts in a 26 inch wheel is as follows:

10x6: 30mph
9x7: 28mph
7x9: 24mph

Nobody has posted numbers for a 6x10, but if you extrapolate a bit, it looks like 15 mph is not going to be a problem.

If you have a full suspension MTB with mounts for disc brakes, you might also want to consider going with a 20inch wheel. You can use beefy dirt bike tires and you'll get a lot more torque.

Have a look at this tire used by ZapPat on a 20inch 9c:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 15#p189492
TidalForce S-750 frame
Rear 2807 in a 24" wheel fed by a Methods 100V 100A controller
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All the details here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=17166

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by justin_le » Nov 29 2009 3:57pm

torker wrote:Bump- Anybody running this winding yet?
Hi Dave, here's what you do. Use the simulator at http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/ and use the "enter custom values" option. Pick the Nine Continent 2807 motor. For the battery voltage, instead of 48V, use 48*7/10 = 33.6V, the battery internal resistance would scale in a similar way. Then, for your controller, choose a current limit that is 10/7th what your actual 48V current limit is. So if you were planning to run with a 20A controller, set the Current Limit in the simulator program to 28.6A. Hit calculate. The graph for a for a 2807/33.6V/28.6A setup will almost perfectly match what your 2810/48V/20A system would deliver.

Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by torker » Nov 29 2009 6:59pm

OK A little confusing but I think I get the gist of it. I contacted Jason and he tells me 20 mph @ 48 V on a 26" The bike I have now doesn't have disc mounts but I do plan on putting it on a frame with disc later. I can't afford the kit and a good bike right now so it will go on the back of an alum. hardtail with front susp. for now. Like I said I want torque and I know a 20 inch wheel would work well but I don't want to put that on a hardtail. I figured the 6*10 winding on a 26" would compare to the 10*7 on a 20 " I guess I'll be the tester then we'll all know. :D
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 30 2009 11:13pm

i just ordered 1 on 26" rim hope it kicks ass. ill let you know when it arrives

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 05 2009 10:45am

the 6x 10 motor on a 26" rim with a 2.125" tire at 36v (41v max charge 10s 3.7v nom ), top speed is 16 mph on flat ground with the 36v 15a controller. i am waiting for my 48v controller to attempt 48v.

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by torker » Dec 06 2009 8:12pm

Is that 6*10 pretty torquey? Anything to compare it to. I didn't get to order mine during the sale. I did get my donor bike. Picked up a Giant Rincon for 110 dollars on Craigslist.
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by Russell » Dec 06 2009 8:40pm

+1 on that torque question and how does it compare to your (GM?) 48V rear hub motor in that department?


-R
Jeep Comanche Trekking Bike w/YOUE geared motor, 42 lbs + 15 lb rear trunk bag w/12S 16Ah LiPo battery, tools, etc., 21A controller, 700 x 40C tires. 27 MPH.


My other E-Bikes: Nashbar Steel Flatbar

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 06 2009 10:23pm

im on the fence with the torque at the moment im waiting for ampedbikes to ship me my new 36v 22a controller. because its got less torque than my ebay 48v 1000w system. im also going to test it with a few diffrent battery packs once the new controller comes in the mail. ill keep you posted :)

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by justin_le » Dec 07 2009 1:16am

torker wrote:Is that 6*10 pretty torquey? Anything to compare it to. I didn't get to order mine during the sale. I did get my donor bike. Picked up a Giant Rincon for 110 dollars on Craigslist.
The 6x10 winding won't really have any more torque than the 7x9 or 9x7 windings. You'll only get marginally more torque off the line and at a stall because the controller and phase lead losses will be somewhat less, but the effect is going to be pretty small, and can be negated with the faster winds by using heavy 10 or 12 AWG phase wire between your controller and the motor. As soon as you reach any appreciable speeds, then the slow 6x10 winding would have LESS torque than the faster windings for a given controller/battery combo.

The myth that more turns = more torque is deeply pervasive in this industry. I blame some well intended but ill-informed Crystalyte salesmen in the early 2000's for entrenching the entire ebike community with this falsehood, and it's forever an uphill battle to set the record straight.

Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by Russell » Dec 07 2009 1:44am

Justin,

I've been scratching my head for a while now because on your simulator I see very little difference in torque at low speeds between the 2807 and 2806 but I thought that was just an aberration and the 6x10 would surely have to have big torque. If that isn't so then a number of people are going to be disappointed. What complicates the issue for me is I have two small geared motors, one a 36V Bafang and one a 24V GM Mini (really a Bafang) and the low wound 36V motor at about 6.4 rpm/v has much more low end torque than the 9.1 rpm/v 24V model (which can be thought of as a 36V 20” model).

-R
Jeep Comanche Trekking Bike w/YOUE geared motor, 42 lbs + 15 lb rear trunk bag w/12S 16Ah LiPo battery, tools, etc., 21A controller, 700 x 40C tires. 27 MPH.


My other E-Bikes: Nashbar Steel Flatbar

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by justin_le » Dec 07 2009 4:08am

Russell wrote:Justin,

I've been scratching my head for a while now because on your simulator I see very little difference in torque at low speeds between the 2807 and 2806 but I thought that was just an aberration and the 6x10 would surely have to have big torque.
-R
No, it's not an aberration. More turns of thinner gauge copper or fewer turns of thicker copper has no effect on the torque output of a motor. All that matters is the net copper fill factor, and in the case of a 9x7 or a 6x10 winding, there is actually ever so slightly more copper in the faster 9x7 hub (61 strands) compared to your 60 strands in a 6x10.

If you want to see more of a difference between the 2807 and the 2806, then you can go to the 'enter custom values' option and put a really high controller resistance, like 0.15 ohms or so, then the torque difference between the 06 and 07 will be greater. If you put a very low controller resistance, like 0.01 ohms, then the difference will be almost nil. That should drive the point home for you that more turns does not equal more torque, and that the torque difference that is there has to do with controller losses and not the motors per se. A higher turn motor SHOULD be sold as a 'higher voltage' hub, not a 'higher torque' hub.

If you want higher torque, then you have to go to either larger direct drive motor (eg Crystalyte 5300 series) or one of the more powerful geared hubs, or just dump more power into your existing hub by either increasing the voltage and/or current. Changing just the winding of your hub leaving everything else the same won't do anything.

Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by torker » Dec 07 2009 11:47am

Good answer Justin. I feel like I am perpetuating the myth :D The way I should have put it is just like you did at the end. If you want "torque" buy a slower wound motor and throw more volts/ amps at it to end up at the same overall speed you had with a faster wind at lower voltage. That is what I want is more power down low and no extra top speed. I hope my thinking is right on this.

A better way to think about this might be using the diameter of the motor more than the windings. It seems that increasing the diam. of the motor will have a greater effect on torque than windings and to a lesser extent voltage/amps. Is this true? I'm still wrong :x Windings have no effect, just diameter and voltage and amps whew...
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by dogman dan » Dec 08 2009 9:56am

Yep, motor diameter affects tourqe more than winding count. That's why we're loving our 9c's . But for a better efficiency at a slower speed at normal 36v voltage increase the winding count.

Once you up voltage to 72, I don't fully undersand it all. But I do hear that a high winding count motor at 72v 35 amps, has plenty o tourqe. And efficeincy will be fine at slow top speeds of say, 30 mph.

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by torker » Dec 09 2009 12:46pm

Well, I just ordered it, yay.. It'll be the 6*10 rear. I'm putting it on the Giant Rincon @ 48 V Batteries in the triangle. I'm stoked.. I am ready to hear back from the guys who already got theirs.
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by tifalou » Dec 09 2009 1:58pm

Hi, I have got both GM and NC 6*10 motors. Used with 48V on a 28" wheel, the GM does 48 km/h on the flat whereas the 9C can't reach 40. On small hills, the difference is reducing, it seems that the balance is about 4% : on steeper hills, the 6*10 is a bit faster, and gets less warm. But it is noisier, specially beetween 15 and 20 km/h.

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by torker » Dec 09 2009 4:26pm

So I'm not good at kph but it sounds like the 9c does around 20+ mph and climbs a little faster than the gm on 48 v?
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by lifepo4ever » Dec 12 2009 11:48pm

I hope that the 2807 does more then 20mph in 26 wheel with 48 volts because My new motor is a 2807 and next week I will run this on a 72 volts set up and and if I do less then 38 mph I sold everything !!!

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by torker » Dec 13 2009 11:47am

Oh yea the 2807 will do more than 20 mph @ 48v Should do more like 25+ so 72 volts should really fly. I bet 35+maybe more if you're aero.
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by DCB-BLDC » Dec 13 2009 11:55am

42-48mph?
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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by lifepo4ever » Dec 13 2009 6:48pm

Justin said I will hit 38mph I hope :D

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by cprobike » May 08 2010 12:37am

oops wrong thread

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Re: Speed of 6*10 winding @ 48 V

Post by dogman dan » May 08 2010 7:04am

Just got my 6x10 up and running enough for a real ride. Lots of pesky issues with the bike itself. Top speed was right about 20 mph with 48v, pulling about 1000 watts. The 9x7 pulls about 1200 watts max on the stock kit controller and my ping 48v battery, doing about 27 mph. So it's a considerably slower motor for sure, and the wattage readings confirm what Live for Phyiscs said about the 6x10 winding having a bit less total copper, and therefore a bit less power.

I found it a bit anemic at 36v, but at 48v I'm very happy with the performance. More amps at 36v would help though, of course. I am running the stock ebikekit controller till I get some lipo. I found the motor perfect for slow riding at 10 mph down a singletrack trail. Very efficient on the battery compared to my previous dirtbike, that used a 5304 in 24" rim.

With a 40 amp, 72v controller I bet this motor will make a pretty nice dirt rider for faster trails. The trail I ride is built for 5-10 mph, and mostly fairly flat so at 48v it's just about a perfect match for the 6x10 on 48v 20 amps.

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